From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/86257 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Keith J. Schultz" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:20 +0100 Message-ID: References: <52F7D270.8040006@gyza.cz> <52F91307.4070205@wxs.nl> <78B47077-A71C-4C31-8F9B-F4CC1295BF77@uni-trier.de> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0006182151==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1392195690 25076 80.91.229.3 (12 Feb 2014 09:01:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:01:30 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Wed Feb 12 10:01:39 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WDVhK-0000gu-0A for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8C1101F5; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:35 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 8OPoqE5im-ex; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:33 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D093101E3; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:33 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F6D101E3 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:31 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id slUTt8bwGixN for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:29 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter2-ams.mf.surf.net (filter2-ams.mf.surf.net [192.87.102.70]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A21101E1 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:24 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mx1.uni-trier.de (mx1.uni-trier.de [136.199.224.17]) by filter2-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s1C91L46003073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:23 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,831,1384297200"; d="scan'208,217";a="10160165" Original-Received: from rzmail.uni-trier.de ([136.199.8.220]) by mx1i.uni-trier.de with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2014 10:01:21 +0100 Original-Received: from [10.0.62.7] (dslb-084-058-235-086.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.58.235.86]) by rzmail.uni-trier.de (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2379B4084B for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:01:21 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=136.199.224.17; country=DE; region=08; city=Trier; latitude=49.7500; longitude=6.6333; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=49.7500,6.6333&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0QLpl1lba - fa3b71532513 - 20140212 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.87.102.70 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:86257 Archived-At: --===============0006182151== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0E13A86D-6E1B-48ED-8BC3-702AA715EAED" --Apple-Mail=_0E13A86D-6E1B-48ED-8BC3-702AA715EAED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi Mikael, Basically, I see your problem with ConTeXts handling of math as a matter = of taste! That is you want LaTeX syntax.=20 It is easy enough to get the results you want. The only place where I see a bug is that a single prime is set larger = than multple primes.=20 regards Keith Am 11.02.2014 um 14:18 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist : > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz = wrote: >=20 > Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist : >=20 >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen wrote: >> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. = It >> worked just fine. >>=20 >> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but >> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt >> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt). >>=20 >> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling >> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned = to >> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1] >> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with >> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples. >>=20 >> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and = probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need = tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from = hackery solutions (for several reasons). >>=20 >> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for = sure is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I = gave in the previous email in mind: >>=20 >> * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second = derivative (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime = (the prime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)? >=20 > No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is = always larger than multiple ones! > You can always change its size! >=20 > I think the user should not have to change its size. All primes should = have the same size, independent if they are one or several. > =20 >=20 >> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX = example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)? > =09 > have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx} depending on the = actual result you want. >=20 > I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example files in = my earlier post in this thread. > =20 > =20 >> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed = (integral=3Dnolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books). > =09 > Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX >=20 > As above, I gave examples... >=20 > Best regards, Mikael > =20 >=20 >> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in = integrals and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)? >> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous = thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? = Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling = that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the = kind of things that should just work as expected... >>=20 >> Best regards, Mikael >=20 > regards > Keith >=20 > = __________________________________________________________________________= _________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry = to the Wiki! >=20 > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / = http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > = __________________________________________________________________________= _________ >=20 > = __________________________________________________________________________= _________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry = to the Wiki! >=20 > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / = http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > = __________________________________________________________________________= _________ --Apple-Mail=_0E13A86D-6E1B-48ED-8BC3-702AA715EAED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi = Mikael,

Basically, I see your problem with ConTeXts = handling of math as a matter of taste!
That is you want LaTeX = syntax. 

It is easy enough to get the = results you want.

The only place where I see a = bug is that a single prime is set larger than = multple
primes. 

regards
= Keith


Am 11.02.2014 um = 14:18 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de> wrote:

Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 = schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

On Mon, = Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
Hi,

I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. = It
worked just fine.

At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept = ConTeXt
and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).

It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned = to
output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files = [1]
l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.

In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and = probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need = tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from = hackery solutions (for several reasons).

I agree it is good to avoid hackery as = long as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some = things. With the examples I gave in the previous email in = mind:

* How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative = (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in = the first derivative is the one I prefer)?
= No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is = always larger than multiple ones!
You can always change its = size!

I think the user should not = have to change its size. All primes should have the same size, = independent if they are one or = several.
 

* How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the = output as in the LaTeX example (i.e. so that the primes are over the = xx)?
=
have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx} =  depending on the actual result you want.

I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my = example files in my earlier post in this = thread.
 
 
* Could the default placement of limits in integrals be = changed (integral=3Dnolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math = books).
Not sure what you want here! example? can be = LateX

As above, I gave = examples...

Best regards, = Mikael
 

* What about the size and finetuning of = placement of indices in integrals and sums (and probably products, = unions, ...)?
* I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a = previous thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double = bars for \|? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I = have a feeling that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then = this is the kind of things that should just work as expected...

Best regards, = Mikael

regard= s
Keith
=
______________________________________________________________________= _____________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry = to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl = / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
= __________________________________________________________________________= _________

= __________________________________________________________________________= _________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please = add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/= mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =  : http://foundry.sup= elec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
________= __________________________________________________________________________= _

= --Apple-Mail=_0E13A86D-6E1B-48ED-8BC3-702AA715EAED-- --===============0006182151== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============0006182151==--