From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/60462 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Haltiwanger Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Grammar Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:29:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20100727084715.GD26009@atos.labs.wmid.amu.edu.pl> <20100727225714.GG26009@atos.labs.wmid.amu.edu.pl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280309405 3095 80.91.229.12 (28 Jul 2010 09:30:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:30:05 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Wed Jul 28 11:30:03 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oe2xb-00087l-J0 for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53751C9C9C; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id GesguOoE0EPG; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:55 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E7BC9C58; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:55 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313E6C9C58 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id VTbDVqthdo64 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:50 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-bw0-f41.google.com (mail-bw0-f41.google.com [209.85.214.41]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B283AC9C0E for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:50 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by bwz9 with SMTP id 9so4668643bwz.14 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:29:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wfb8iWp5sQobbAQK0LQmqfC3rJAOrrbzs6tGn9boOB4=; b=GK0BNxphZ9lCnmEA9TaWxJVlpp8p1O9CBgJfvH6QR7AFOIqpiv/H8dIG42b5LmDefd IUpdh/DBBlpgMTmSKSHEyEX+PxVCokBBmvG68S+aZq31bGIJv/vJvf0YXI60QSQ7Y8ni SYBLgbR+ugoOsLUwgGgjytjd2v2epW0L0Q/Kc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oiCIBnWcC5/tOo5+BHV3FyziscDfV67e3Kx+oZv2RolNvNXA4qZ7UgnTZYfSclqRf/ dWHhR3eKIkWk5JisyesRIwImp/la89PUvBYGyjCrPrvBaDURJ/hUtYtvOdaBmJrnLqTg uVGUHJpvBOKYl+QDihKlW+3Uv9WRuoEDcmIHs= Original-Received: by 10.204.46.73 with SMTP id i9mr7554863bkf.156.1280309389418; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.204.163.138 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:29:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100727225714.GG26009@atos.labs.wmid.amu.edu.pl> X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:60462 Archived-At: On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Marcin Borkowski wrote: > Dnia Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 01:06:27PM +0000, John Haltiwanger napisał= (a): >> On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Marcin Borkowski >> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > what an interesting discussion! >> > >> > My personal point of view is that the so-called "political correctness" >> > is something I actively fight against, by means of NOT using "they" or >> > "Afroamericans" or other such strange inventions. =A0These new words >> > somehow remind me of Orwell's 1984... >> >> So what do you write instead? Negro? > > And what's wrong with "Negro"? =A0AFAIK, it means "black", so it just > describes the reality. =A0This is what a word should do, right? =A0And bt= w, > the term "Afroamerican" doesn't really make much sense to me: what would > you call a Negro, born in France, and living in Germany, when you wanted > to distinguish him from a white man? =A0(Please note that by "man", I mean > "a human being of any sex";).) > > To be more serious: I accept that there might be a problem caused by the > fact that I am not a native speaker of English. =A0I suspect that somehow > the neutral term "Negro" started being used in a derogatory fashion, and > that it might be unpleasant to black people to be called Negroes. =A0And > that's why I usually say just "black people". So what is your issue here then? You are already working by the rules I proposed: using the words that the group wishes to be called by (or at least not using the words which they don't). BTW, 'Negro' is definitely not a term to be used for referring to black Americans. IIRC, it is a positive term in Brazil. The point is to be aware of these things and to respect people's wishes regarding them, rather than blithely pretending that any name you use should automatically be fine simply because, well, YOU don't see the problem with using the term Negro (for instance). >> 'Political correctness' can be onerous, and often contradictory to my >> anti-authoritarian nature, but in the end it is not "the Man" who >> issues requests for language changes so much as the marginalized >> groups that take issue with existing phrasing. Afroamericans, for >> instance, was deprecated sometime around that year 1984.. It all boils >> down to whether you care about what the people concerned are saying, >> which is why I note the author's position when I encounter it. (Rather >> than throwing their paper away, ala Khaled). > > Well, "onerous" might not be the best word. =A0"Scary" might be better. > > You see, I am quite convinced that trying to manipulate language "by > hand" is a very bad idea. =A0Maybe this is partly because I live in a > former Communist country (Poland); we have seen such things in the past. > Another reason maybe that it seems to me that one of the first groups to > talk about "political correctness" (maybe even coining the phrase, I > don't know) were feminists, who did so much more harm to women in > general than we usually imagine. I understand your sensitivity vis a vis Regime Imposed language tuning. You have got to be kidding me with that anti-feminist talk, though. I'm not going to go there with you, especially after your explanation below. >> This is always a contentious issue when software/coder types are >> involved, one of the serious reasons why female participation in IT >> (in general) and FLoSS (in particular) are so low: many men in these >> circles will not, or can not, give room to critical complaints. The >> problem always originates in the person complaining---they need to be >> less serious, no one around here cares so stfu, etc. This is a serious >> issue, and this is probably one of the least contentious starting >> points for encountering it. That theory would be thrown away because >> it attempts to consciously address real gender inequalities is a >> depressing thought. > > I am not sure that I understood your point, but I am quite convinced > that the low percentage of women in mathematics or IT is caused > primarily by the simple fact that an average female brain is not well > fit for this particular purpose. =A0(Of course, we all know notable > exceptions. =A0Also note that "better/worse fit for one particular > purpose" is completely unrelated to "better/worse in general".) I'd laugh at this if it wasn't the same shit that's been going around for years in the math/IT circles. Socialization is the cause behind this, not natural differences in brain structure. If the society has decided to accept and repeat this "fact" over and over, and men will generally act as if it is true (pushing out females who make the attempt), then it will come to "appear" as true. But that doesn't make it any less BS. Put out some science for that one, dude. ___________________________________________________________________________= ________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-cont= ext webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________= ________