questions regarding `\date`

questions regarding `\date`

[Paul Menzel]

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Dear ConTeXt folks,


I have four questions regarding `\date`. I looked at the page in the
Wiki [1], in the ConTeXt user manual on page 159 [2][3] and tried some
things, but could not figure it out.

I am using Debian Sid/unstable and I am a total beginner regarding
ConTeXt.

0. I guess the first question is, if `\date` is supposed to be used
inside a text anyway or just when for example setting the title page.

1. No space is inserted after using `\date[…]`.

	text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099] text

result:	text 29. August 2099text

Is that intentional? A slash after the command fixes it.

	text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099]\ text

2. I do not want that one digit months have the zero displayed. But
using `m` acts as using `month`.

	\date[d=29,m=8,y=2099][d,.\,,m]

result: 29. August

3. Spacing between numbers. Using LaTeX there were some suggestions to
typeset a date using small spaces like `29.\,8.\,2010`. I guess this
depends on the fonts used and personal taste? If there is a rule, maybe
that could be added to the typesetting chapter in the user manual.


Thanks,

Paul


[1] http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Reference/en/date
[2] http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
[3] http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/contextman/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Fcontext-reference%2Fen%2Fco-language.tex&view=markup

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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 28.08.10 16:02, schrieb Paul Menzel:
> Dear ConTeXt folks,
>
>
> I have four questions regarding `\date`. I looked at the page in the
> Wiki [1], in the ConTeXt user manual on page 159 [2][3] and tried some
> things, but could not figure it out.
>
> I am using Debian Sid/unstable and I am a total beginner regarding
> ConTeXt.
>
> 0. I guess the first question is, if `\date` is supposed to be used
> inside a text anyway or just when for example setting the title page.
>
> 1. No space is inserted after using `\date[…]`.
>
> 	text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099] text
>
> result:	text 29. August 2099text
>
> Is that intentional? A slash after the command fixes it.
>
> 	text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099]\ text

It's a problem with the optional argument, if the second argument is 
missing the space after the first is gobbled but it can be fixed.

\unprotect

\def\dododate[#1][#2]%
   {\bgroup
    \getparameters[\??da][d=\normalday,m=\normalmonth,y=\normalyear,#1]%
    \normalday  \@@dad\relax
    \normalmonth\@@dam\relax
    \normalyear \@@day\relax
    \doifsomethingelse{#2}{\currentdate[#2]}{\currentdate}%
    \egroup}

\def\nododate[#1]%
   {\dododate[#1][]}

\def\dodate[#1]%
   {\strictdoifnextoptionalelse{\dododate[#1]}{\nododate[#1]}}

\def\nodate
   {\currentdate}

\def\date
   {\strictdoifnextoptionalelse\dodate\nodate}

\protect

\starttext

text \date\ text

text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099] text

text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099][d,.\,,m] text

\stoptext

Wolfgang
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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Peter Münster]

On Sat, Aug 28 2010, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

> It's a problem with the optional argument, if the second argument is
> missing the space after the first is gobbled but it can be fixed.

It's a general problem with ConTeXt macros. The same applies for example for
\externalfigure. Should this be fixed for all commands, that can be used in
running text, or should this behaviour just be well documented?
Peter

-- 
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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 28.08.10 21:02, schrieb Peter Münster:
> On Sat, Aug 28 2010, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>
>> It's a problem with the optional argument, if the second argument is
>> missing the space after the first is gobbled but it can be fixed.
>
> It's a general problem with ConTeXt macros. The same applies for example for
> \externalfigure. Should this be fixed for all commands, that can be used in
> running text, or should this behaviour just be well documented?


Fixing it for command which appear in the text is the best solution for 
me but it will take time but it has to be documented somewhere because 
such a change will likely only happen in mkiv.

Wolfgang
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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 28.08.2010 um 21:02 schrieb Peter Münster:

> On Sat, Aug 28 2010, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> 
>> It's a problem with the optional argument, if the second argument is
>> missing the space after the first is gobbled but it can be fixed.
> 
> It's a general problem with ConTeXt macros. The same applies for example for
> \externalfigure. Should this be fixed for all commands, that can be used in
> running text, or should this behaviour just be well documented?

\unprotect

\unexpanded\def\externalfigure
  {\doifnextoptionalelse\doexternalfigure\donothing}

\def\doexternalfigure[#1]%
  {\strictdoifnextoptionalelse{\dodoexternalfigure[#1]}{\nodoexternalfigure[#1]}}

\def\nodoexternalfigure[#1]%
  {\dododoexternalfigure[#1][][]}

\def\dodoexternalfigure[#1][#2]%
  {\strictdoifnextoptionalelse{\dododoexternalfigure[#1][#2]}{\dododoexternalfigure[#1][#2][]}

\def\dododoexternalfigure[#1][#2][#3]% [label][file][settings] | [file][settings] | [file][parent][settings]
   {\bgroup
    \doifelsenothing{#1}
      {\framed[\c!width=\defaultfigurewidth,\c!height=\defaultfigureheight]{external\\figure\\no name}}
      {\doifundefinedelse{\??ef\??ef#1}
         {\useexternalfigure[\s!dummy][#1][#2][#3]%
          \getvalue{\??ef\??ef\s!dummy}[]} % [] is dummy arg 5
         {\doifassignmentelse{#2}
            {\getvalue{\??ef\??ef#1}[#2]}%
            {\getvalue{\??ef\??ef#1}[#3]}}}%
   \globallet\currentresourcecomment\empty
    \egroup}

\protect

\starttext
this is how a \externalfigure[cow][height=\lineheight] looks i the netherlands
\stoptext

Wolfgang
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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 28.08.2010 um 21:02 schrieb Peter Münster:

> On Sat, Aug 28 2010, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> 
>> It's a problem with the optional argument, if the second argument is
>> missing the space after the first is gobbled but it can be fixed.
> 
> It's a general problem with ConTeXt macros. The same applies for example for
> \externalfigure. Should this be fixed for all commands, that can be used in
> running text, or should this behaviour just be well documented?


The alternative defintions for \date and \externalfigure i showed
do fix the problem with the space after the command but the price
for this is that you can write the arguments in two different lines
or put a space between them because the second argument is then
no longer seen by tex.

Wolfgang


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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Paul Menzel]

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Dear ConTeXt folks,


Am Samstag, den 28.08.2010, 16:02 +0200 schrieb Paul Menzel:

> I have four questions regarding `\date`. I looked at the page in the
> Wiki [1], in the ConTeXt user manual on page 159 [2][3] and tried some
> things, but could not figure it out.
> 
> I am using Debian Sid/unstable and I am a total beginner regarding
> ConTeXt.
> 
> 0. I guess the first question is, if `\date` is supposed to be used
> inside a text anyway or just when for example setting the title page.
> 
> 1. No space is inserted after using `\date[…]`.
> 
> 	text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099] text
> 
> result:	text 29. August 2099text
> 
> Is that intentional? A slash after the command fixes it.
> 
> 	text \date[d=29,m=8,y=2099]\ text

this question was answered by Wolfgang and he gave a solution.

> 2. I do not want that one digit months have the zero displayed. But
> using `m` acts as using `month`.
> 
> 	\date[d=29,m=8,y=2099][d,.\,,m]
> 
> result: 29. August
> 
> 3. Spacing between numbers. Using LaTeX there were some suggestions to
> typeset a date using small spaces like `29.\,8.\,2010`. I guess this
> depends on the fonts used and personal taste? If there is a rule, maybe
> that could be added to the typesetting chapter in the user manual.

Could you answer or give your opinions an 0., 2. and 3. please? That
would be great.


Thanks,

Paul

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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Philipp Gesang]

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Hi Paul,

On 2010-08-31 <10:29:39>, Paul Menzel wrote:
> > 3. Spacing between numbers. Using LaTeX there were some suggestions to
> > typeset a date using small spaces like `29.\,8.\,2010`. I guess this
> > depends on the fonts used and personal taste? If there is a rule, maybe
> > that could be added to the typesetting chapter in the user manual.
> 
> Could you answer or give your opinions an 0., 2. and 3. please? That
> would be great.

unfortunately I can only come up with a negative answer: I
skimmed the Bringhurst and although he does discuss date strings
with slashes as separators, I could not find anything concerning
their spacing. As you guessed, “personal taste” might be a valid
criterion in this matter. Maybe you should redirect this question
to http://typophile.com/forums, but make sure to come back with a
definite answer ;-)

Philipp

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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Taco Hoekwater]

On 08/31/2010 11:48 AM, Philipp Gesang wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> On 2010-08-31<10:29:39>, Paul Menzel wrote:
>>> 3. Spacing between numbers. Using LaTeX there were some suggestions to
>>> typeset a date using small spaces like `29.\,8.\,2010`. I guess this
>>> depends on the fonts used and personal taste? If there is a rule, maybe
>>> that could be added to the typesetting chapter in the user manual.
>>
>> Could you answer or give your opinions an 0., 2. and 3. please? That
>> would be great.
>
> unfortunately I can only come up with a negative answer: I
> skimmed the Bringhurst and although he does discuss date strings
> with slashes as separators,

The Chicago manual (14ed) says that slashed/dotted dates are bad style
and should be avoided and that one should use full month names instead.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Philipp Gesang]

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On 2010-08-31 <13:41:06>, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> On 08/31/2010 11:48 AM, Philipp Gesang wrote:
> >unfortunately I can only come up with a negative answer: I
> >skimmed the Bringhurst and although he does discuss date strings
> >with slashes as separators,
> 
> The Chicago manual (14ed) says that slashed/dotted dates are bad style
> and should be avoided and that one should use full month names instead.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Taco

That's what I prefer, too. Bringhurst (v.3.2, p. 81f.) only uses
the date as an example for the opposition virgule/solidus and
states that “[i]t is useful in dates [...] and in text where a
comma or parenthesis might otherwise have been used”. He does not
give general advice wrt typesetting of dates.

For the record, p. 406 of the TeXbook has this:

··8<············································································
\def\today{\ifcase\month\or
  January\or February\or March\or April\or May\or June\or
  July\or August\or September\or October\or November\or December\fi
  \space\number\day, \number\year}
··8<············································································

Ergo common spaces.

Philipp

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Re: questions regarding `\date`

[Martin Schröder]

2010/8/31 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:
> The Chicago manual (14ed) says that slashed/dotted dates are bad style
> and should be avoided and that one should use full month names instead.

Seconded. And if you have to use a short form, please follow ISO 8601
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601) - nobody can be sure when the
8.9.10 is.

Best
   Martin
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