From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/88164 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gerben Wierda Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: State of documentation of ConTeXt? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:14:57 +0200 Message-ID: References: <1642f57885676cbd1020027a2bff7c40.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <53C41372.7080802@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0077358739==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1405858521 20264 80.91.229.3 (20 Jul 2014 12:15:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 12:15:21 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sun Jul 20 14:15:16 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1X8q1L-0005c6-Op for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:15:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439651028F for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:15:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4bvSMIhUnW+I for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:15:15 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919AA1021F for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:15:07 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98083101E7 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:15:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ka+W13XZ58gE for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:15:00 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from filter1-ams.mf.surf.net (filter1-ams.mf.surf.net [192.87.102.69]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F60C101E6 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:15:00 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from smtpq6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.42.169]) by filter1-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s6KCExQJ028561 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:14:59 +0200 Original-Received: from [212.54.42.137] (helo=smtp6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1X8q15-00057j-Je for ntg-context@ntg.nl; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:14:59 +0200 Original-Received: from d57d7632.static.ziggozakelijk.nl ([213.125.118.50] helo=mail.rna.nl) by smtp6.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1X8q15-0006QG-2O for ntg-context@ntg.nl; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:14:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.rna.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C047AFF67E8 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:14:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rna.nl Original-Received: from mail.rna.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vanroodewierda.rna.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PMFOcy9aTixi for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:14:57 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from luna-wifi.rna.nl (luna-wifi.rna.nl [192.168.2.89]) by mail.rna.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A9AE6FF67D0 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 14:14:57 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Ziggo-spambar: -- X-Ziggo-spamscore: -2.5 X-Ziggo-spamreport: ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, CHW1252=0.01, CM_SLOPPY_BRK1=0.3, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, TW_WD=0.077, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=212.54.42.169; country=NL; latitude=52.5000; longitude=5.7500; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.5000,5.7500&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0NMsAeXA7 - 400c478dac46 - 20140720 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.87.102.69 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:88164 Archived-At: --===============0077358739== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_36986144-7C64-4B9D-8DFE-B9C88B6E3A55" --Apple-Mail=_36986144-7C64-4B9D-8DFE-B9C88B6E3A55 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 15 Jul 2014, at 16:42, Mojca Miklavec = wrote: > ConTeXt comes with full source code, so users can easily study the > source code. This is crazy. Sorry, you can=92t expect users to be able to do that. = Lamport created LaTeX *and* wrote the =93LaTeX User=92s Guide and = Reference manual=94. The authors mentioned below were all developers = too. You need that level of understanding to write a manual. > The project could easily employ two people to work full > time just to keep up with the pace of development (once they would > catch up).=20 I would expect it to be far less than that once you have the = documentation. What a project needs is discipline. If the ConTeXt stays = a tinkered-tool-in-flux (because that is how Hans needs it for his own = work), a decent manual will never arrive unless there is the discipline = that any new functionality is documented (=93user manual & reference=94) = in full before proceeding to the next development. On 16 Jul 2014, at 00:26, David Wooten wrote: > It=92s suspect to take umbrage on another=92s behalf, but =93tinkering = researchers may not be inclined to do that, they want to tinker=94 =97 = It=92s absurd to suggest that Hans &co. are =93tinkering=94 for the sake = of tinkering. I never suggested that. Hans & Co tinker because they want to make = progress and develop functionality they need. But because the project is = in constant flux, even if you would have time (money) to fund = documentation, the documentation would be out-of-date soon. I would immediately buy any book that explains ConTeXt such as the books = that are there for LaTeX. But then, LaTeX is moribund and doesn=92t = change at all. An easier target. Hans & Taco: how much money would need to be raised to produce something = of the quality of Kopka & Daly=92s =93Guide to LaTeX=94? or Goossens, = Mittelbach & Samarin=92s =93The LaTeX Companion=94? Because, I don=92t = think this will happen unless some money is raised to pay for it. I would gladly donate in a crowdfunding initiative for a good book. But = how much is needed to make it happen? G --Apple-Mail=_36986144-7C64-4B9D-8DFE-B9C88B6E3A55 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 On 15 = Jul 2014, at 16:42, Mojca Miklavec <mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.= com> wrote:

ConTeXt = comes with full source code, so users can easily study the
source = code.

This is crazy. Sorry, you can=92t = expect users to be able to do that. Lamport created LaTeX *and* = wrote the =93LaTeX User=92s Guide and Reference manual=94.  The = authors mentioned below were all developers too. You need that level of = understanding to write a manual.

The = project could easily employ two people to work full
time just to keep = up with the pace of development (once they would
catch = up). 

I would expect it to be = far less than that once you have the documentation. What a project needs = is discipline. If the ConTeXt stays a tinkered-tool-in-flux (because = that is how Hans needs it for his own work), a decent manual will never = arrive unless there is the discipline that any new functionality is = documented (=93user manual & reference=94) in full before proceeding = to the next development.

On 16 Jul = 2014, at 00:26, David Wooten <dw@trichotomic.net> = wrote:

It=92s suspect to take umbrage on another=92s behalf, but = =93tinkering researchers may not be inclined to do that, they want to = tinker=94 =97 It=92s absurd to suggest that Hans &co. are = =93tinkering=94 for the sake of tinkering.

I = never suggested that. Hans & Co tinker because they want to make = progress and develop functionality they need. But because the project is = in constant flux, even if you would have time (money) to fund = documentation, the documentation would be out-of-date = soon.

I would immediately buy any book that = explains ConTeXt such as the books that are there for LaTeX. But then, = LaTeX is moribund and doesn=92t change at all. An easier = target.

Hans & Taco: how much money would = need to be raised to produce something of the quality of Kopka & = Daly=92s =93Guide to LaTeX=94?  or Goossens, Mittelbach & = Samarin=92s =93The LaTeX Companion=94? Because, I don=92t think this = will happen unless some money is raised to pay for = it.

I would gladly donate in a crowdfunding = initiative for a good book. But how much is needed to make it = happen?

G
= --Apple-Mail=_36986144-7C64-4B9D-8DFE-B9C88B6E3A55-- --===============0077358739== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============0077358739==--