[NTG-context] Quotation mark in drop caps

[NTG-context] Quotation mark in drop caps

[Thangalin]

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Hi list!

I have a three-part question.

First, when using \placeinitial, how would you detect whether the first
character is a quotation mark, and, if so, override the setupinitial to use
m=2?

Second, when using m=2 to capture a quotation mark, how would you change
the font size of only the quotation mark, leaving the font size for the
remaining characters the same?

Third, can this be accomplished using setupinitial alone? Such as:

\setupinitial[
  quotefont=\SmallerFont,
  quotecolour=\QuoteColour,
]

A few typographic examples of what I'd like to accomplish:

Re: https://i.ibb.co/7rJYBS6/initial-Matching-Quotes.gif
Re: https://i.ibb.co/Hz8v5w4/atlantips-drop-caps-and-quotation-marks-10.png

My understanding of what exists in ConTeXt:

\starttext
\startchapter
  % This detaches the quotation mark from the paragraph, which looks
strange.
  \placeinitial
  "We held ConTeXt in high esteem."
\stopchapter

\startchapter
  % This looks great.
  \placeinitial
  \input knuth
\stopchapter

\startchapter
  % I'd like to eliminate this next line.
  \setupinitial[m=2]

  % The quotation mark is a drop cap, albeit too big.
  \placeinitial
  "We held ConTeXt in high esteem."
\stopchapter

\startchapter
  % I'd like to eliminate this next line.
  \setupinitial[m=1]

  % The setups are reinitialized, which in theory should not be needed.
  \placeinitial
  \input knuth
\stopchapter
\stoptext

Here's how I'd like to typeset the document (using setupinitial alone):

\setupinitial[
  % When a quotation mark is detected, the given font is applied to it.
  quotefont=\SmallerFont,
  % Not necessary, but could be useful to other people?
  quotecolour=\QuoteColour,
]

\starttext
\startchapter
  % The quotation mark gets attached and applies the smaller font size.
  \placeinitial
  "We held ConTeXt in high esteem."
\stopchapter

\startchapter
  % Only captures the first letter, because no quotation mark is present.
  \placeinitial
  \input knuth
\stopchapter
\stoptext

Is this possible? If so, how?

Thank you!

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[NTG-context] Re: Quotation mark in drop caps

[Thangalin]

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>From TeX.SE, the following solution works; however, it doesn't feel like
the "ConTeXt way":

% SOT
\setuplocalboxes[leftmargin][
    style=\bfd,
    color=darkred,
    distance=0pt,
]

\unprotect
\define\quoteinitial{%
    \futureexpandisap“\quoteinitial_true\quoteinitial_false%
}

\define\quoteinitial_true{%
    \localmargintext[leftmargin]{“}%
    \expandafter\placeinitial%
    \gobbleoneargument%
}

\let\quoteinitial_false\placeinitial
\protect

\starttext
    \quoteinitial “We held ConTeXt in high esteem.” \samplefile{bryson}

    \quoteinitial We held ConTeXt in high esteem.   \samplefile{bryson}
\stoptext
%EOT

Any suggestions for how to improve it?

See also: https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148

Thanks again!

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[NTG-context] Re: Quotation mark in drop caps

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 7/10/2024 9:10 AM, Thangalin wrote:
>  From TeX.SE, the following solution works; however, it doesn't feel 
> like the "ConTeXt way":
> 
> % SOT
> \setuplocalboxes[leftmargin][
>      style=\bfd,
>      color=darkred,
>      distance=0pt,
> ]
> 
> \unprotect
> \define\quoteinitial{%
>      \futureexpandisap“\quoteinitial_true\quoteinitial_false%
> }
> 
> \define\quoteinitial_true{%
>      \localmargintext[leftmargin]{“}%
>      \expandafter\placeinitial%
>      \gobbleoneargument%
> }
> 
> \let\quoteinitial_false\placeinitial
> \protect
> 
> \starttext
>      \quoteinitial “We held ConTeXt in high esteem.” \samplefile{bryson}
> 
>      \quoteinitial We held ConTeXt in high esteem.   \samplefile{bryson}
> \stoptext
> %EOT
> 
> Any suggestions for how to improve it?
> 
> See also: https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148 
> <https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148>
\starttext

\setupbodyfont[dejavu,9pt]

\defineinitial[two][m=1,method=auto]

\setinitial[two]             Knuth   :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
\setinitial[two] \quotation {Knuth}  :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par

\stoptext


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: Quotation mark in drop caps

[Thangalin]

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Thank you Hans.

That's pretty close. Is there a way to make the opening quotation mark
smaller? Ideally, control the font and colour?

Cheers!

On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 12:25 AM Hans Hagen via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> On 7/10/2024 9:10 AM, Thangalin wrote:
> >  From TeX.SE, the following solution works; however, it doesn't feel
> > like the "ConTeXt way":
> >
> > % SOT
> > \setuplocalboxes[leftmargin][
> >      style=\bfd,
> >      color=darkred,
> >      distance=0pt,
> > ]
> >
> > \unprotect
> > \define\quoteinitial{%
> >      \futureexpandisap“\quoteinitial_true\quoteinitial_false%
> > }
> >
> > \define\quoteinitial_true{%
> >      \localmargintext[leftmargin]{“}%
> >      \expandafter\placeinitial%
> >      \gobbleoneargument%
> > }
> >
> > \let\quoteinitial_false\placeinitial
> > \protect
> >
> > \starttext
> >      \quoteinitial “We held ConTeXt in high esteem.” \samplefile{bryson}
> >
> >      \quoteinitial We held ConTeXt in high esteem.   \samplefile{bryson}
> > \stoptext
> > %EOT
> >
> > Any suggestions for how to improve it?
> >
> > See also: https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148
> > <https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148>
> \starttext
>
> \setupbodyfont[dejavu,9pt]
>
> \defineinitial[two][m=1,method=auto]
>
> \setinitial[two]             Knuth   :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
> \setinitial[two] \quotation {Knuth}  :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
>
> \stoptext
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                            Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>                Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>         tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: Quotation mark in drop caps

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 7/10/2024 10:56 AM, Thangalin wrote:
> Thank you Hans.
> 
> That's pretty close. Is there a way to make the opening quotation mark 
> smaller? Ideally, control the font and colour?

You can try this (patch):

\protected\def\typo_initial_handle_indeed#1#2%
   {\dontleavehmode
    \begingroup
    \cdef\currentinitial{#1}%
    \setupcurrentinitial[#2]%
    \resetfontfeature % might be needed in more places
    \ifempty{\initialparameter\c!style}%
      \definedfont[\initialparameter\c!font]%
    \else
      \useinitialstyleparameter\c!style
    \fi
    \ifempty{\initialparameter\c!color}%
      \c_attr_color       \attributeunsetvalue
      \c_attr_transparency\attributeunsetvalue
    \else
      \useinitialcolorparameter\c!color
    \fi
    ......


\starttext

\setupbodyfont[dejavu,9pt]

\defineinitial[two][m=1,method=auto]

\setupquotation[symcolor=red]

\setinitial[two]             Knuth   :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
\setinitial[two] \quotation {Knuth}  :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par

\stoptext

> Cheers!
> 
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 12:25 AM Hans Hagen via ntg-context 
> <ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> wrote:
> 
>     On 7/10/2024 9:10 AM, Thangalin wrote:
>      >  From TeX.SE, the following solution works; however, it doesn't feel
>      > like the "ConTeXt way":
>      >
>      > % SOT
>      > \setuplocalboxes[leftmargin][
>      >      style=\bfd,
>      >      color=darkred,
>      >      distance=0pt,
>      > ]
>      >
>      > \unprotect
>      > \define\quoteinitial{%
>      >      \futureexpandisap“\quoteinitial_true\quoteinitial_false%
>      > }
>      >
>      > \define\quoteinitial_true{%
>      >      \localmargintext[leftmargin]{“}%
>      >      \expandafter\placeinitial%
>      >      \gobbleoneargument%
>      > }
>      >
>      > \let\quoteinitial_false\placeinitial
>      > \protect
>      >
>      > \starttext
>      >      \quoteinitial “We held ConTeXt in high esteem.”
>     \samplefile{bryson}
>      >
>      >      \quoteinitial We held ConTeXt in high esteem.  
>     \samplefile{bryson}
>      > \stoptext
>      > %EOT
>      >
>      > Any suggestions for how to improve it?
>      >
>      > See also: https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148
>     <https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148>
>      > <https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148
>     <https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/722275/2148>>
>     \starttext
> 
>     \setupbodyfont[dejavu,9pt]
> 
>     \defineinitial[two][m=1,method=auto]
> 
>     \setinitial[two]             Knuth   :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
>     \setinitial[two] \quotation {Knuth}  :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
> 
>     \stoptext
> 
> 
>     -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                 Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>                     Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>              tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl
>     <http://www.pragma-ade.nl> | www.pragma-pod.nl
>     <http://www.pragma-pod.nl>
>     -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>     ___________________________________________________________________________________
>     If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
>     entry to the Wiki!
> 
>     maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
>     https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
>     <https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl>
>     webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl <https://www.pragma-ade.nl> /
>     https://context.aanhet.net <https://context.aanhet.net> (mirror)
>     archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
>     <https://github.com/contextgarden/context>
>     wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
>     <https://wiki.contextgarden.net>
>     ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: Quotation mark in drop caps

[Thangalin]

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Hi again,

The output shows a closing red opening quotation mark, which is the
opposite of what I'd like to achieve. Using \quotation won't work in my
situation because the text mixes and matches numerous types of quotation
marks and the user is writing in Markdown. Matching against “ would work
for most cases; however, the quotation marks could include:

" -- straight quote
“ -- opening curly double quote
‘ -- opening curly single quote (or apostrophe)
« -- opening double quote (French, Spanish, etc.)
‹ -- opening single quote
「 -- opening Japanese quote

% SOT
\protected\def\typo_initial_handle_indeed#1#2%
   {\dontleavehmode
    \begingroup
    \cdef\currentinitial{#1}%
    \setupcurrentinitial[#2]%
    \resetfontfeature % might be needed in more places
    \ifempty{\initialparameter\c!style}%
      \definedfont[\initialparameter\c!font]%
    \else
      \useinitialstyleparameter\c!style
    \fi
    \ifempty{\initialparameter\c!color}%
      \c_attr_color       \attributeunsetvalue
      \c_attr_transparency\attributeunsetvalue
    \else
      \useinitialcolorparameter\c!color
    \fi}

\starttext
  \setupbodyfont[dejavu,9pt]
  \defineinitial[two][m=1,method=auto]

  \setupquotation[symcolor=red]

  \setinitial[two]             Knuth   :\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
  \setinitial[two] \symbol[leftquotation]Knuth\symbol[rightquotation]
:\ignorespaces\input knuth \par
\stoptext
% EOT

This produces:

https://i.ibb.co/P5hDLH5/opening-quote.png

What I'm looking to produce is:

https://i.ibb.co/6PPGxxY/opening-quote-small.png

Using \quotation instead of \symbol[leftquotation] or “ produces a red
closing quote:

https://i.ibb.co/VY1wqZ1/closing-quote-red.png

Any other ideas?

Thank you!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

[NTG-context] Re: Quotation mark in drop caps

[vm via ntg-context]

On 11/07/2024 01:55, Thangalin wrote:
> 
> Any other ideas?

Yes, change/edit the text to avoid the quotation marks in the first place.

e.g. There are always better/simpler ways to achieve the story to be 
told. Trace back to the underlying idea as why these drop capitals were 
invented in the first place. Most likely to visually separate blocs of 
mono colored bread text with the lead characters from the drawer below. 
These days there are (better) alternatives to solve the issue of 
separation text paragraphs.


(avoiding a problem instead of trying to solve it afterwards)

.F
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[NTG-context] Re: Quotation mark in drop caps

[Thangalin]

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Thanks vm!

Sadly, I have no way of telling the 4,000+ people who have downloaded my
Markdown editor how they ought to compose and typeset their prose.

I'll let Robert Bringhurst know, though, and ask him to change Rule 4.1.5
of his Elements of Typographic Style from "include the initial quotation
mark" to "rewrite your prose." ;-)

https://i.imgur.com/ne991lZ.jpeg

TX

On Wed, Jul 10, 2024 at 11:35 PM vm via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
wrote:

>
>
> On 11/07/2024 01:55, Thangalin wrote:
> >
> > Any other ideas?
>
> Yes, change/edit the text to avoid the quotation marks in the first place.
>
> e.g. There are always better/simpler ways to achieve the story to be
> told. Trace back to the underlying idea as why these drop capitals were
> invented in the first place. Most likely to visually separate blocs of
> mono colored bread text with the lead characters from the drawer below.
> These days there are (better) alternatives to solve the issue of
> separation text paragraphs.
>
>
> (avoiding a problem instead of trying to solve it afterwards)
>
> .F
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
> webpage  : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / https://context.aanhet.net (mirror)
> archive  : https://github.com/contextgarden/context
> wiki     : https://wiki.contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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