OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Jaroslav Hajtmar]

Hello ConTeXist.
I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.

For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on internet. 
I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in ConTeXt

Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different things 
and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I typed, was maths 
represented only marginally and minimally. Now I need to type some 
mathematics (at secondary school level) and I found that I came across 
borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on possibilities of ConTeXt for 
typesetting of mathematics.
I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt 
typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type 
mathematics then use LaTeX.
I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt for 
typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math modules 
(exist anything?) to be usable results.

I have a few questions:

0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or 
it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of 
non-elementary mathematics?
2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking 
in the field of mathematics rate)?
3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet 
mathematics at a reasonable level?
4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in 
the future)?
5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?


I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to 
typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.

Thanks for all the answers.

Jaroslav Hajtmar


___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Otared Kavian]

Hi,

I do use ConTeXt for typesetting mathematics, and actually I began to use ConTeXt several years ago for my work as a mathematician: up to now I haven’t encountered a single instance in which ConTeXt would not give the expected result, and as a matter of fact the out-of-the-box capabilities and the quality of the typestting when using ConTeXt seems to me quite superior to plain TeX or LaTeX. I use ConTeXt for writing exercise sheets, lecture notes, and drafts of papers and all the presentations for my talks.
It is true that when submitting my papers to journals, unfortunately I have to switch back to LaTeX, but even so I prefer using ConTeXt in all the preparation steps because it is more convenient to use, and also I can use these notes directly for my lecture notes and presentations. 

Now coming to answer your questions:

> I have a few questions:
> 
> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?

All depends on how complex one's document is, and how deep one’s knowledge of TeX and ConTeXt is.

> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of non-elementary mathematics?

I cannot say anything about the overall number of users, but as I said above I use it for the kind of maths I am doing: some of it is really not elementary…

> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?

I am absolutely satisfied with the results.

> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet mathematics at a reasonable level?

My knowledge of TeX and ConTeXt is rather elementary, but this does not prevent me to use ConTeXt. Moreover in the rare situations in which I don’t know how to achieve a certain result, there a good group of gurus on the mailing list to help solve my problem.

> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in the future)?

For sure it is: the reason for which ConTeXt is seldom used among mathematicians (or other scientists) is the fact that journals have developped specific macros for their layout and despite the fact that the quality and shortcomings of LaTeX are well-known, publishers of these journals are more than reluctant to switch to a more modern macro package of TeX, such as ConTeXt.

> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?

Maybe one can imagine a script which would downgrade a file written in ConTeXt to a LaTeX file, once one accepts to lose the quality of the typesetting…

Best regards: OK

On 9 févr. 2014, at 20:09, Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz> wrote:

> Hello ConTeXist.
> I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
> 
> For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in ConTeXt
> 
> Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics.
> I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type mathematics then use LaTeX.
> I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math modules (exist anything?) to be usable results.
> 
> I have a few questions:
> 
> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of non-elementary mathematics?
> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in the future)?
> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
> 
> 
> I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
> 
> Thanks for all the answers.
> 
> Jaroslav Hajtmar
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Jaroslav Hajtmar]

Thanks Otared.
Many thanks for your reaction.  Even if I would not not make any other 
statement than yours, so I'm clear at this time that the problem is 
probably sitting in front of a keyboard and monitor :-).

Perhaps the problem is that the Internet is relatively little of 
mathematical demonstrations in ConTeXt, and if one is accustomed to some 
practices in LaTeX or use different packages, it can be a little taken 
aback ConTeXt. Now I also found that even though I dont switch fonts, so 
I worked in an environment that me from switching fonts and therefore 
some formulas look very bad. But it is my wrong.
I've got to give more attention. Enthusiasm for my current project takes 
patience and sound reasoning. I've to give a time to prevents my mistakes.
When I am not careful, then I am doing many of dificult searchable errors.

Thanks for ConTeXt and thanks to all in this list for your advice and help.

Jaroslav Hajtmar






Dne 9.2.2014 23:31, Otared Kavian napsal(a):
> Hi,
>
> I do use ConTeXt for typesetting mathematics, and actually I began to use ConTeXt several years ago for my work as a mathematician: up to now I haven’t encountered a single instance in which ConTeXt would not give the expected result, and as a matter of fact the out-of-the-box capabilities and the quality of the typestting when using ConTeXt seems to me quite superior to plain TeX or LaTeX. I use ConTeXt for writing exercise sheets, lecture notes, and drafts of papers and all the presentations for my talks.
> It is true that when submitting my papers to journals, unfortunately I have to switch back to LaTeX, but even so I prefer using ConTeXt in all the preparation steps because it is more convenient to use, and also I can use these notes directly for my lecture notes and presentations.
>
> Now coming to answer your questions:
>
>> I have a few questions:
>>
>> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
> All depends on how complex one's document is, and how deep one’s knowledge of TeX and ConTeXt is.
>
>> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of non-elementary mathematics?
> I cannot say anything about the overall number of users, but as I said above I use it for the kind of maths I am doing: some of it is really not elementary…
>
>> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
> I am absolutely satisfied with the results.
>
>> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
> My knowledge of TeX and ConTeXt is rather elementary, but this does not prevent me to use ConTeXt. Moreover in the rare situations in which I don’t know how to achieve a certain result, there a good group of gurus on the mailing list to help solve my problem.
>
>> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in the future)?
> For sure it is: the reason for which ConTeXt is seldom used among mathematicians (or other scientists) is the fact that journals have developped specific macros for their layout and despite the fact that the quality and shortcomings of LaTeX are well-known, publishers of these journals are more than reluctant to switch to a more modern macro package of TeX, such as ConTeXt.
>
>> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
> Maybe one can imagine a script which would downgrade a file written in ConTeXt to a LaTeX file, once one accepts to lose the quality of the typesetting…
>
> Best regards: OK
>
> On 9 févr. 2014, at 20:09, Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz> wrote:
>
>> Hello ConTeXist.
>> I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
>>
>> For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in ConTeXt
>>
>> Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics.
>> I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type mathematics then use LaTeX.
>> I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math modules (exist anything?) to be usable results.
>>
>> I have a few questions:
>>
>> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
>> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of non-elementary mathematics?
>> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
>> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
>> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in the future)?
>> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
>>
>>
>> I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
>>
>> Thanks for all the answers.
>>
>> Jaroslav Hajtmar
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Shree Devi Kumar]

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It maybe helpful for beginners if there were sample documents for
mathematical typesetting  (for the current version of context) that could
be used as a start for their own projects.

Maybe list members can contribute some for addition to the documentation
wiki.


>>>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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Hi,

I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
worked just fine.

At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but research
using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt and my
collaborators dont know ConTeXt).

It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling that
there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to output
what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1] l.pdf (from
LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with source l.tex and
c.tex for some examples.

When it comes to math environments, I think that thanks to the environments
in http://dl.contextgarden.net/myway/mathalign.pdf we are OK. I sometimes
miss the multline(d) environment from LaTeX.

Best regards, Mikael

[1]
The attachments were too big, so I decided to put the pdf files on
http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/l.pdf
and
http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/c.pdf




On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz> wrote:

> Hello ConTeXist.
> I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
>
> For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on internet. I
> was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in ConTeXt
>
> Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different things and
> I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I typed, was maths
> represented only marginally and minimally. Now I need to type some
> mathematics (at secondary school level) and I found that I came across
> borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on possibilities of ConTeXt for
> typesetting of mathematics.
> I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt typesetting
> mathematics, although I think that who wants to type mathematics then use
> LaTeX.
> I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt for
> typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math modules
> (exist anything?) to be usable results.
>
> I have a few questions:
>
> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or it
> is a general problem of ConTeXt?
> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of
> non-elementary mathematics?
> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking in
> the field of mathematics rate)?
> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet
> mathematics at a reasonable level?
> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in the
> future)?
> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
>
>
> I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to typing
> of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
>
> Thanks for all the answers.
>
> Jaroslav Hajtmar
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
> listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________________
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 4559 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: c.tex --]
[-- Type: application/x-tex, Size: 2142 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: l.tex --]
[-- Type: application/x-tex, Size: 437 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
> worked just fine.
>
> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
>
> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.

In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and 
probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need 
tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from 
hackery solutions (for several reasons).

> When it comes to math environments, I think that thanks to the
> environments in http://dl.contextgarden.net/myway/mathalign.pdf
> <http://dl.contextgarden..net/myway/mathalign.pdf> we are OK. I
> sometimes miss the multline(d) environment from LaTeX.
>
> Best regards, Mikael
>
> [1]
> The attachments were too big, so I decided to put the pdf files on
> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/l.pdf
> and
> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/c.pdf
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz
> <mailto:hajtmar@gyza.cz>> wrote:
>
>     Hello ConTeXist.
>     I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
>
>     For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on
>     internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in
>     ConTeXt
>
>     Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different
>     things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I
>     typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I
>     need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I
>     found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on
>     possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics.
>     I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt
>     typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type
>     mathematics then use LaTeX.
>     I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt
>     for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math
>     modules (exist anything?) to be usable results.
>
>     I have a few questions:
>
>     0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText
>     or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
>     1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of
>     non-elementary mathematics?
>     2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt
>     (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
>     3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could
>     bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
>     4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g.
>     in the future)?
>     5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
>
>
>     I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to
>     typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
>
>     Thanks for all the answers.
>
>     Jaroslav Hajtmar
>
>
>     _______________________________________________________________________________________
>     If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
>     entry to the Wiki!
>
>     maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
>     http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/__listinfo/ntg-context
>     <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context>
>     webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>     archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/__projects/contextrev/
>     <http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/>
>     wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>     _______________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>


-- 

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6839 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
>> worked just fine.
>>
>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
>>
>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.
>>
>
> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and
> probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need
> tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from
> hackery solutions (for several reasons).
>

I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure is
ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in the
previous email in mind:

* How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative
(f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the
first derivative is the one I prefer)?
* How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX
example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
* Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed
(integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
* What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals
and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
* I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous thread
on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of course
I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that if we
want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of things
that should just work as expected...

Best regards, Mikael



>
>  When it comes to math environments, I think that thanks to the
>> environments in http://dl.contextgarden.net/myway/mathalign.pdf
>> <http://dl.contextgarden..net/myway/mathalign.pdf> we are OK. I
>>
>> sometimes miss the multline(d) environment from LaTeX.
>>
>> Best regards, Mikael
>>
>> [1]
>> The attachments were too big, so I decided to put the pdf files on
>> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/l.pdf
>> and
>> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/c.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz
>> <mailto:hajtmar@gyza.cz>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hello ConTeXist.
>>     I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
>>
>>     For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on
>>     internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in
>>     ConTeXt
>>
>>     Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different
>>     things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I
>>     typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I
>>     need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I
>>     found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on
>>     possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics.
>>     I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt
>>     typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type
>>     mathematics then use LaTeX.
>>     I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt
>>     for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math
>>     modules (exist anything?) to be usable results.
>>
>>     I have a few questions:
>>
>>     0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText
>>     or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
>>     1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of
>>     non-elementary mathematics?
>>     2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt
>>     (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
>>     3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could
>>     bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
>>     4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g.
>>     in the future)?
>>     5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
>>
>>
>>     I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to
>>     typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
>>
>>     Thanks for all the answers.
>>
>>     Jaroslav Hajtmar
>>
>>
>>     ____________________________________________________________
>> ___________________________
>>
>>     If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
>>     entry to the Wiki!
>>
>>     maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
>>     http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/__listinfo/ntg-context
>>
>>     <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context>
>>     webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>>     archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/__projects/contextrev/
>>
>>     <http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/>
>>     wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>     ____________________________________________________________
>> ___________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
>> listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________________
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
> listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Fabrice Couvreur]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7889 bytes --]

Hi,
Unless I am mistaken, Cambria is a font available for Windows. I'm using
Linux, is it possible to install ? Is it free ? If yes, where can I download
it ?

Xits, I do not know.

Is it possible to put the "uppercase = right"  in math mode with Pagella ?
thank you,
Fabrice


2014-02-11 9:57 GMT+01:00 Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
>>> worked just fine.
>>>
>>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
>>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
>>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
>>>
>>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
>>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
>>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
>>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
>>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.
>>>
>>
>> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and
>> probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need
>> tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from
>> hackery solutions (for several reasons).
>>
>
> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure is
> ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in the
> previous email in mind:
>
> * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative
> (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the
> first derivative is the one I prefer)?
> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX
> example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed
> (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals
> and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous
> thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of
> course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that
> if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of
> things that should just work as expected...
>
> Best regards, Mikael
>
>
>
>>
>>  When it comes to math environments, I think that thanks to the
>>> environments in http://dl.contextgarden.net/myway/mathalign.pdf
>>> <http://dl.contextgarden..net/myway/mathalign.pdf> we are OK. I
>>>
>>> sometimes miss the multline(d) environment from LaTeX.
>>>
>>> Best regards, Mikael
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> The attachments were too big, so I decided to put the pdf files on
>>> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/l.pdf
>>> and
>>> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/c.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz
>>> <mailto:hajtmar@gyza.cz>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hello ConTeXist.
>>>     I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
>>>
>>>     For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on
>>>     internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in
>>>     ConTeXt
>>>
>>>     Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different
>>>     things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I
>>>     typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I
>>>     need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I
>>>     found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on
>>>     possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics.
>>>     I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt
>>>     typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type
>>>     mathematics then use LaTeX.
>>>     I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt
>>>     for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math
>>>     modules (exist anything?) to be usable results.
>>>
>>>     I have a few questions:
>>>
>>>     0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText
>>>     or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
>>>     1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of
>>>     non-elementary mathematics?
>>>     2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt
>>>     (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
>>>     3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could
>>>     bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
>>>     4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g.
>>>     in the future)?
>>>     5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
>>>
>>>
>>>     I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to
>>>     typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
>>>
>>>     Thanks for all the answers.
>>>
>>>     Jaroslav Hajtmar
>>>
>>>
>>>     ____________________________________________________________
>>> ___________________________
>>>
>>>     If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
>>>     entry to the Wiki!
>>>
>>>     maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
>>>     http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/__listinfo/ntg-context
>>>
>>>     <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context>
>>>     webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>>>     archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/__projects/contextrev/
>>>
>>>     <http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/>
>>>     wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>     ____________________________________________________________
>>> ___________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> _______________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
>>> to the Wiki!
>>>
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
>>> listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> _______________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
>> listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________________
>>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Martin Schröder]

2014-02-11 10:18 GMT+01:00 Fabrice Couvreur <fabrice1.couvreur@gmail.com>:
> Unless I am mistaken, Cambria is a font available for Windows. I'm using
> Linux, is it possible to install ? Is it free ? If yes, where can I download
> it ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambria_(typeface)#Availability

> Xits, I do not know.

It's on CTAN and included in TeXLive.

Best
   Martin
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Keith J. Schultz]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2521 bytes --]


Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
> worked just fine.
> 
> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
> 
> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.
> 
> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from hackery solutions (for several reasons).
> 
> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in the previous email in mind:
> 
> * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)?
	No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always larger than multiple ones!
	You can always change its size!

> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
	have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx}  depending on the actual result you want.
 
> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
	Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX
> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of things that should just work as expected...
> 
> Best regards, Mikael

regards
	Keith

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3472 bytes --]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de>wrote:

>
> Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
>>> worked just fine.
>>>
>>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
>>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
>>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
>>>
>>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
>>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
>>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
>>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
>>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.
>>>
>>
>> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and
>> probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need
>> tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from
>> hackery solutions (for several reasons).
>>
>
> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure is
> ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in the
> previous email in mind:
>
> * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative
> (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the
> first derivative is the one I prefer)?
>
> No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always
> larger than multiple ones!
> You can always change its size!
>

I think the user should not have to change its size. All primes should have
the same size, independent if they are one or several.


>
> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX
> example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
>
> have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx}  depending on the actual
> result you want.
>

I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example files in my
earlier post in this thread.


>
>
> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed
> (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
>
> Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX
>

As above, I gave examples...

Best regards, Mikael


>
> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals
> and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous
> thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of
> course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that
> if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of
> things that should just work as expected...
>
> Best regards, Mikael
>
>
> regards
> Keith
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Fabrice Couvreur]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4277 bytes --]

Hi Martin,
Sorry, but I do not find fonts cambria and cambria math to install with
Debian.
thank you,
Fabrice


2014-02-11 14:18 GMT+01:00 Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de>wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
>>>> worked just fine.
>>>>
>>>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
>>>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
>>>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
>>>>
>>>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
>>>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
>>>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
>>>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
>>>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and
>>> probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need
>>> tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from
>>> hackery solutions (for several reasons).
>>>
>>
>> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure
>> is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in
>> the previous email in mind:
>>
>>  * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative
>> (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the
>> first derivative is the one I prefer)?
>>
>> No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always
>> larger than multiple ones!
>> You can always change its size!
>>
>
> I think the user should not have to change its size. All primes should
> have the same size, independent if they are one or several.
>
>
>>
>> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX
>> example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
>>
>> have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx}  depending on the actual
>> result you want.
>>
>
> I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example files in my
> earlier post in this thread.
>
>
>>
>>
>> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed
>> (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
>>
>>  Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX
>>
>
> As above, I gave examples...
>
> Best regards, Mikael
>
>
>>
>> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals
>> and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
>> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous
>> thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of
>> course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that
>> if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of
>> things that should just work as expected...
>>
>> Best regards, Mikael
>>
>>
>> regards
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Keith J. Schultz]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4405 bytes --]

Hi Mikael,

Basically, I see your problem with ConTeXts handling of math as a matter of taste!
That is you want LaTeX syntax. 

It is easy enough to get the results you want.

The only place where I see a bug is that a single prime is set larger than multple
primes. 

regards
	Keith


Am 11.02.2014 um 14:18 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de> wrote:
> 
> Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
>> worked just fine.
>> 
>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
>> 
>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.
>> 
>> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from hackery solutions (for several reasons).
>> 
>> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in the previous email in mind:
>> 
>> * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)?
> 
> 	No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always larger than multiple ones!
> 	You can always change its size!
> 
> I think the user should not have to change its size. All primes should have the same size, independent if they are one or several.
>  
> 
>> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
> 	
> have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx}  depending on the actual result you want.
> 
> I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example files in my earlier post in this thread.
>  
>  
>> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
> 	
> Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX
> 
> As above, I gave examples...
> 
> Best regards, Mikael
>  
> 
>> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
>> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of things that should just work as expected...
>> 
>> Best regards, Mikael
> 
> regards
> 	Keith
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de>wrote:

> Hi Mikael,
>
> Basically, I see your problem with ConTeXts handling of math as a matter
> of taste!
> That is you want LaTeX syntax.
>
> It is easy enough to get the results you want.
>
> The only place where I see a bug is that a single prime is set larger than
> multple
> primes.
>
> regards
> Keith
>

Hi Keith,

I do not agree with you. It is not so important to have the same syntax as
in LaTeX (exception: it would be nice to get double bars from \| since it
does not make sense to have \| yield a single bar since | does), but to be
able to write very common formulas (look at the example with double
derivative with respect to x in my examples above, and tell me how to do
that correctly in ConTeXt!) in an acceptable way.

Best regards, Mikael


>
>
> Am 11.02.2014 um 14:18 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
>
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de>wrote:
>
>>
>> Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
>>>> worked just fine.
>>>>
>>>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
>>>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
>>>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).
>>>>
>>>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
>>>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
>>>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
>>>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
>>>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and
>>> probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need
>>> tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from
>>> hackery solutions (for several reasons).
>>>
>>
>> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure
>> is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in
>> the previous email in mind:
>>
>>  * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative
>> (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the
>> first derivative is the one I prefer)?
>>
>> No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always
>> larger than multiple ones!
>> You can always change its size!
>>
>
> I think the user should not have to change its size. All primes should
> have the same size, independent if they are one or several.
>
>
>>
>> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX
>> example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
>>
>> have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx}  depending on the actual
>> result you want.
>>
>
> I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example files in my
> earlier post in this thread.
>
>
>>
>>
>> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed
>> (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
>>
>>  Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX
>>
>
> As above, I gave examples...
>
> Best regards, Mikael
>
>
>>
>> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals
>> and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
>> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous
>> thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of
>> course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that
>> if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of
>> things that should just work as expected...
>>
>> Best regards, Mikael
>>
>>
>> regards
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 02:40:18PM +0100, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>
> I do not agree with you. It is not so important to have the same syntax as
> in LaTeX (exception: it would be nice to get double bars from \| since it
> does not make sense to have \| yield a single bar since | does)

That is the Plain TeX syntax for double bar FWIW.

Regards,
Khaled

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 02:40:18PM +0100, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
> >
> > I do not agree with you. It is not so important to have the same syntax
> as
> > in LaTeX (exception: it would be nice to get double bars from \| since it
> > does not make sense to have \| yield a single bar since | does)
>
> That is the Plain TeX syntax for double bar FWIW.
>
> Regards,
> Khaled
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

Indeed, and I think that in all I have written (I don't know plain TeX so
well) above one can insert "plain TeX" instead of LaTeX.

I can add that I think that the horizontal space between the integral sign
and the function is too large. Compare with plain TeX/LaTeX. Maybe that
comes from having smaller size of the limits?

I hope that you dont get me wrong. I would like to use ConTeXt more than I
do today. But at the moment it just don't give the expected output when it
comes to math. Are there any other mathematicians on this list that can
raise their voices and tell what they think?

Best regards, Mikael

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Keith J. Schultz]

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Hi Mikael,

as in my first answer use:

f''_xx or f''_{xx} if you need both xs'

I have tried it at it looks very similar to your LaTeX example.

Start another thread about the single prime as bug. Since this one is marked as OT
and others more more knowledgeable might not be reading this.

regards
	Keith.



Am 13.02.2014 um 14:40 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de> wrote:
> Hi Mikael,
> 
> Basically, I see your problem with ConTeXts handling of math as a matter of taste!
> That is you want LaTeX syntax. 
> 
> It is easy enough to get the results you want.
> 
> The only place where I see a bug is that a single prime is set larger than multple
> primes. 
> 
> regards
> 	Keith
> 
> Hi Keith,
> 
> I do not agree with you. It is not so important to have the same syntax as in LaTeX (exception: it would be nice to get double bars from \| since it does not make sense to have \| yield a single bar since | does), but to be able to write very common formulas (look at the example with double derivative with respect to x in my examples above, and tell me how to do that correctly in ConTeXt!) in an acceptable way.
> 
> Best regards, Mikael
>  


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Keith J. Schultz]

Hi Jaroslav,

Math support in ConTeXt is quite good.

For beginners there are pages in the Wiki.
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Math

I have to admit some pages are dated, but still give valid examples.

The Wiki is a good starting point and have links to external example
pages.

regards
	Keith.


Am 09.02.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz>:

> Hello ConTeXist.
> I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
> 
> For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in ConTeXt
> 
> Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics.
> I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type mathematics then use LaTeX.
> I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math modules (exist anything?) to be usable results.
> 
> I have a few questions:
> 
> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of non-elementary mathematics?
> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in the future)?
> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
> 
> 
> I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
> 
> Thanks for all the answers.
> 
> Jaroslav Hajtmar
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Fabrice Couvreur]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3545 bytes --]

Hi,
I begin to migrate slowly to ConTeXt, and I think it works very well for
writing mathematics.
I have a question : what is the most complete Math Font to write mathematics
with ConteXt course ?
thank you,
Fabrice


2014-02-10 9:45 GMT+01:00 Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de>:

> Hi Jaroslav,
>
> Math support in ConTeXt is quite good.
>
> For beginners there are pages in the Wiki.
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Math
>
> I have to admit some pages are dated, but still give valid examples.
>
> The Wiki is a good starting point and have links to external example
> pages.
>
> regards
>         Keith.
>
>
> Am 09.02.2014 um 20:09 schrieb Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz>:
>
> > Hello ConTeXist.
> > I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.
> >
> > For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on internet.
> I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in ConTeXt
> >
> > Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different things
> and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I typed, was maths
> represented only marginally and minimally. Now I need to type some
> mathematics (at secondary school level) and I found that I came across
> borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on possibilities of ConTeXt for
> typesetting of mathematics.
> > I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt
> typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type
> mathematics then use LaTeX.
> > I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt for
> typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math modules
> (exist anything?) to be usable results.
> >
> > I have a few questions:
> >
> > 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or
> it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
> > 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of
> non-elementary mathematics?
> > 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking
> in the field of mathematics rate)?
> > 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet
> mathematics at a reasonable level?
> > 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in
> the future)?
> > 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
> >
> >
> > I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to
> typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
> >
> > Thanks for all the answers.
> >
> > Jaroslav Hajtmar
> >
> >
> >
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
> to the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> > archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> > wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> >
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Hans Hagen]

On 2/10/2014 10:08 AM, Fabrice Couvreur wrote:
> Hi,
> I begin to migrate slowly to ConTeXt, and I think it works very well for
> writing mathematics.
> I have a question : what is the most complete Math Font to write
> mathematics with ConteXt course?
> thank you,

cambria is the reference font
xits probably has most shapes
lmmath is cm compatible plus some more
pagella and other gyre fonts are also quite complete

Hans

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics

[Xan]

> Hello ConTeXist.
> 
> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText or 
> it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of 
> non-elementary mathematics?
> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt (thinking 
> in the field of mathematics rate)?

In general, yes. But there are some issues with TiKZ [http://www.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2013/076384.html] and in some ocasions with columns (not balanced).

Perhaps we could have a bug triage system for that?

> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could bet 
> mathematics at a reasonable level?
One reason for ConTeXt is the ability of deal with XML and produce several outputs.
Separation of content and presentation is also good.

> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. in 
> the future)?

I join one person (I don't remember who) who says there could be more examples for learning people. I think an ideal think could be to have an equivalent "The not so short introduction to LaTeX".

> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?
> 
The community is good. All posted questions have posted answers. And Hans is the boss ;-)
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