From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/86256 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Fabrice Couvreur Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:51:59 +0100 Message-ID: References: <52F7D270.8040006@gyza.cz> <52F91307.4070205@wxs.nl> <78B47077-A71C-4C31-8F9B-F4CC1295BF77@uni-trier.de> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1005412156==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1392148334 9766 80.91.229.3 (11 Feb 2014 19:52:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 19:52:14 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Tue Feb 11 20:52:21 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WDJNR-0006Lt-Sj for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A817101EB; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:17 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4w3kjT++gWc0; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:15 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A9E101E3; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:15 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353FC101E3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:13 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id mWqDnpAC2nDY for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:10 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter3-til.mf.surf.net (filter3-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.219]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B8E101E1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:00 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) by filter3-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s1BJpxZt000402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:52:00 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id hn9so5212324wib.0 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:51:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Tj83RGVOaONrS5d7Tk2J94YDgX/flExFdTjVbHWkpD4=; b=H8Dxpa+rSCPfO+Y4novC1zHyoD0tG9rUyLzC16BUfL6Sywk8gJg3KMyqfXaYPC4bRg NtHAiGYVcLZhIe59CUql8RSGYDrj1cl6tG+Bt0bA2ZNEL+ARq/jke+ZTpuRDMc8Btglk h3I+lGJkBIfNXbg/6ZJYXVfZpQlJZfbNf7/p8SKAO1cugOmqeQp5WmNuZpKlXT4MGot6 rtdoXhVhzvUoHUEuuDVZ6Ugtb6tUUoUtGWGrZg55UdWVlX5QrIWkgsZO0Vwtt6YIj0BE RpRXOCRHYqAfrkO7JxIy/nQq8Hr2okMgbFF5cQsY7q7MUt/FQcoD66Q+jIdUjaRIEk+i W5vQ== X-Received: by 10.180.93.133 with SMTP id cu5mr42173wib.32.1392148319641; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:51:59 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.227.212.142 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:51:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d; country=IE X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 06Lp7PX1r - 1cbff3e7c4e8 - 20140211 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:86256 Archived-At: --===============1005412156== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0438904511420f04f226ca6f --f46d0438904511420f04f226ca6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Martin, Sorry, but I do not find fonts cambria and cambria math to install with Debian. thank you, Fabrice 2014-02-11 14:18 GMT+01:00 Mikael P. Sundqvist : > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > >> >> Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist : >> >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen wrote: >> >>> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It >>>> worked just fine. >>>> >>>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but >>>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt >>>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt). >>>> >>>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling >>>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to >>>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1] >>>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with >>>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples. >>>> >>> >>> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and >>> probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need >>> tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from >>> hackery solutions (for several reasons). >>> >> >> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure >> is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in >> the previous email in mind: >> >> * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative >> (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the >> first derivative is the one I prefer)? >> >> No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always >> larger than multiple ones! >> You can always change its size! >> > > I think the user should not have to change its size. All primes should > have the same size, independent if they are one or several. > > >> >> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX >> example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)? >> >> have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx} depending on the actual >> result you want. >> > > I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example files in my > earlier post in this thread. > > >> >> >> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed >> (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books). >> >> Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX >> > > As above, I gave examples... > > Best regards, Mikael > > >> >> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals >> and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)? >> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous >> thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of >> course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that >> if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of >> things that should just work as expected... >> >> Best regards, Mikael >> >> >> regards >> Keith >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to >> the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / >> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context >> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net >> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ >> wiki : http://contextgarden.net >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > --f46d0438904511420f04f226ca6f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Martin,
Sorry, but I do not find fonts cambria and cambria math to install with Debian.
thank you,
Fabrice


=
2014-02-11 14:18 GMT+01:00 Mikael P. Sundqvist <= span dir=3D"ltr"><= mickep@gmail.com>:
On Tue, Feb= 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de>= wrote:

Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at= 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
Hi,

I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
worked just fine.

At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).

It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.

In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and probabl= y other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need tuning (or m= ore configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from hackery solutions= (for several reasons).

I agree it is good to avoid hackery as lon= g as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some things.= With the examples I gave in the previous email in mind:

* How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivativ= e (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the pr= ime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)?
= No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always large= r than multiple ones!
You can always change its size!

I think the user should = not have to change its size. All primes should have the same size, independ= ent if they are one or several.
=A0

* How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the L= aTeX example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
=
have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{x= x} =A0depending on the actual result you want.

I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my ex= ample files in my earlier post in this thread.
=A0
=A0
=
* Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed = (integral=3Dnolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
=
Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX
=

As above, I gave examples...

Be= st regards, Mikael
=A0

* What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals= and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
* I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a prev= ious thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \= |? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling = that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind = of things that should just work as expected...

Best regards, Mikael

regards
Keith

_________________________________________________= __________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-cont= ext@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http://= www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki =A0 =A0 : http:= //contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________= ________


_______________________________________________________________________= ____________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / <= a href=3D"http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context" target=3D"_blank"= >http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http://= www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki =A0 =A0 : http:= //contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________= ________

--f46d0438904511420f04f226ca6f-- --===============1005412156== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============1005412156==--