OT world history: other measuring systems?

OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Hi all,
just out of curiosity and since some of you are knowledgable in many 
fields: Were there widely accepted measuring systems in Asia before the 
introduction of the imperial or metric system? In Europe there was a 
mess of local miles, feet, cubits, inches etc.; why didn’t "we" stick to 
the Roman system?

(Also Knuth’s Potrzebie system unfortunately couldn’t unite the world... 
https://webmadness.net/blog/?post=knuth ;))

Hraban
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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context]

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On Tue, 25 Jan 2022, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:

> Hi all,
> just out of curiosity and since some of you are knowledgable in many 
> fields: Were there widely accepted measuring systems in Asia before the 
> introduction of the imperial or metric system? In Europe there was a 
> mess of local miles, feet, cubits, inches etc.; why didn’t "we" stick to 
> the Roman system?

All you need to do is look at the definitions of roman imperial units to understand why we didn't stick to that:

An inch was the width of the base of the thumb, a foot, well length of a foot, a fathom was the width of outstretched arms, yard was the length of the man's belt, mile was 1000 paces of marching roman soldiers, and so on. 

In India, from what I am aware, the pre-imperial units of measurements had similar origins as imperial. Length was based on width of fingers, cubit (also used in other civilizations of the time), person-height and so on. As with the imperial units, these definitions were not uniform and went through a uniformization process in the middle ages. However, India moved to imperial units with colonization, and adopted metric system after Independence. 

Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area, are still in use as they are effectively codified in the land records. Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient and medieval systems in India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement

But it got more complicated than that (particularly for time). See, for example:
https://sites.google.com/site/mathematicsmiscellany/time-measurement-in-ancient-india

There is also this fascinating book which covers the non-European history of mathematics (a lot of which in ancient times was to do with units and measurements but more importantly, calculations):

https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691135267/the-crest-of-the-peacock

Aditya

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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/25/2022 6:27 PM, Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context wrote:

> Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area, are still in use as they are effectively codified in the land records. Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient and medieval systems in India.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement

the same in nl ... for instance farmers still use old measures (e.g. 
when selling or buying land), also because for instance lots are defined 
that way

> But it got more complicated than that (particularly for time). See, for example:
> https://sites.google.com/site/mathematicsmiscellany/time-measurement-in-ancient-india
> 
> There is also this fascinating book which covers the non-European history of mathematics (a lot of which in ancient times was to do with units and measurements but more importantly, calculations):
> 
> https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691135267/the-crest-of-the-peacock
also nice ... all gets figured out independent and multiple times over time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIEJHNoSWF4&t=10381s


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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 25.01.22 um 18:27 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
>> why didn’t "we" stick to
>> the Roman system?
> 
> All you need to do is look at the definitions of roman imperial units to understand why we didn't stick to that:
> 
> An inch was the width of the base of the thumb, a foot, well length of a foot, a fathom was the width of outstretched arms, yard was the length of the man's belt, mile was 1000 paces of marching roman soldiers, and so on.

Ah, of course. So “normalization” to some ruler’s shoe size was already 
progress.

> In India, from what I am aware, the pre-imperial units of measurements had similar origins as imperial. Length was based on width of fingers, cubit (also used in other civilizations of the time), person-height and so on. As with the imperial units, these definitions were not uniform and went through a uniformization process in the middle ages. However, India moved to imperial units with colonization, and adopted metric system after Independence.
> 
> Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area, are still in use as they are effectively codified in the land records. 

Interesting.

> Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient and medieval systems in India.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement
> 
> But it got more complicated than that (particularly for time). See, for example:
> https://sites.google.com/site/mathematicsmiscellany/time-measurement-in-ancient-india

Oh, that is nice!

> There is also this fascinating book which covers the non-European history of mathematics (a lot of which in ancient times was to do with units and measurements but more importantly, calculations):
> https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691135267/the-crest-of-the-peacock

Yes, that’s probably worth reading.

Thank you!
Hraban
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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 25.01.22 um 18:45 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
> On 1/25/2022 6:27 PM, Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context wrote:
> 
>> Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area, are 
>> still in use as they are effectively codified in the land records. 
>> Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient and medieval systems in India.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement
> 
> the same in nl ... for instance farmers still use old measures (e.g. 
> when selling or buying land), also because for instance lots are defined 
> that way

I don’t think that farmers (in Germany) still use them, but “Morgen” 
(morning) and “Tagwerk” (a day’s work) were usual measures for areas, 
depending on the region and the type of work (farming, viniculture, 
fresco painting...)

According to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagewerk, only the kingdom of 
Bavaria had a proper definition:
1 Tagwerk = 100 Dezimal = 400 Quadratruten = 40.000 Quadratfuß

I don’t know if Michael Ende made that up, but apparently some bible 
exegetors said, paradise must have had the size of 6 “Tagwerk”... (But 
then probably YHW’s tagwerk is something else than a mortal farmer’s – 
similar to the time of the Devas in India.)

Hraban
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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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As you know, there were very variable measurement systems in Europe 
after the fall of the Roman Empire, depending on the region within the 
same country. It is difficult to say precisely why political unity, when 
there was one in a given country, did not make it possible to 
systematize the use of the same standard of measurement throughout the 
country, because it is quite astonishing to see that the cubit, the 
foot, the pound etc. vary from one region to another during the medieval 
period. The answer to this question on the variability and versatility 
of measures is undoubtedly due to the fact that the birth of modern 
nations has been accompanied by the emergence of a rational State which 
has increasingly taken the place of a rational administration (legal) of 
social relationship. The French Revolution of 1789 carried out the 
efforts at rationalization that we had seen develop with the appearance 
of a strong State from the end of the wars of religion and the reign of 
Louis XIV in France: the metric system (based on a segment of the 
Greenwich meridian) in base 10, makes it possible to obtain measurements 
of surfaces, distances and volumes which are the same everywhere and 
which do not vary according to whether one is in Normandy, Lorraine or 
Provence. For those interested in the point Didot (the printing point 
under the French monarchy), its value was 1/72 of a foot (of the king's 
foot)... which king's foot could not be a foot of English king, nor a 
symbolic value as guinea was !

see here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France
and here : 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France_before_the_French_Revolution

Le 25/01/2022 à 20:28, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context a écrit :
> Am 25.01.22 um 18:27 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
>>> why didn’t "we" stick to
>>> the Roman system?
>>
>> All you need to do is look at the definitions of roman imperial units 
>> to understand why we didn't stick to that:
>>
>> An inch was the width of the base of the thumb, a foot, well length 
>> of a foot, a fathom was the width of outstretched arms, yard was the 
>> length of the man's belt, mile was 1000 paces of marching roman 
>> soldiers, and so on.
>
> Ah, of course. So “normalization” to some ruler’s shoe size was 
> already progress.
>
>> In India, from what I am aware, the pre-imperial units of 
>> measurements had similar origins as imperial. Length was based on 
>> width of fingers, cubit (also used in other civilizations of the 
>> time), person-height and so on. As with the imperial units, these 
>> definitions were not uniform and went through a uniformization 
>> process in the middle ages. However, India moved to imperial units 
>> with colonization, and adopted metric system after Independence.
>>
>> Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area, are 
>> still in use as they are effectively codified in the land records. 
>
> Interesting.
>
>> Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient and medieval systems in India.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement
>>
>> But it got more complicated than that (particularly for time). See, 
>> for example:
>> https://sites.google.com/site/mathematicsmiscellany/time-measurement-in-ancient-india 
>>
>
> Oh, that is nice!
>
>> There is also this fascinating book which covers the non-European 
>> history of mathematics (a lot of which in ancient times was to do 
>> with units and measurements but more importantly, calculations):
>> https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691135267/the-crest-of-the-peacock 
>>
>
> Yes, that’s probably worth reading.
>
> Thank you!
> Hraban
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
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> to the Wiki!
>
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>

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients&Moderns
Professeur Agrégé de Philosophie (HC)

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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/25/2022 8:28 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:

> Ah, of course. So “normalization” to some ruler’s shoe size was already 
> progress.

I'm not that sure if shoes are really standardized (or fashion in 
general ... bachotex polish xxl differs from us xxl and dutch xxl and ...
  i think that napoleon sort of forced the netherlands to standardize

times (clocks) were definitely different per city

i remember reading that for instance when the car industry needed oarts 
and there were more suppliers needed it were the supliers who 
standardized measured (bolts and nuts)

thinking of it: we used to have standardized batteries and film rolls 
(cameras) but the world definitely degraded in that area: camera and 
phone and laptop batteries are the new 'foot' and 'finger'

Hans

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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/25/2022 8:41 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
> Am 25.01.22 um 18:45 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
>> On 1/25/2022 6:27 PM, Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context wrote:
>>
>>> Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area, are 
>>> still in use as they are effectively codified in the land records. 
>>> Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient and medieval systems in India.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement
>>
>> the same in nl ... for instance farmers still use old measures (e.g. 
>> when selling or buying land), also because for instance lots are 
>> defined that way
> 
> I don’t think that farmers (in Germany) still use them, but “Morgen” 
> (morning) and “Tagwerk” (a day’s work) were usual measures for areas, 
> depending on the region and the type of work (farming, viniculture, 
> fresco painting...)
a 'bunder' land is one still used and a 'mud' potatoes

(taking a 'sip' of water now ... and i bet that this is not the same 
wverywhere)


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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Otared Kavian via ntg-context]

> On 26 Jan 2022, at 00:17, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> […]
> times (clocks) were definitely different per city

Regarding the issue of the absolute necessity of defining a standard time the book by Peter Galison « Einstein’s Clocks, Poincaré’s Maps » gives some interesting insight. In particular, since after the mid 19th century trains were developed while the time was not standardized, many accidents happened with hundreds of people killed. This led Henri Poincaré, Lorentz and Einstein (among other mathematcians and physicists) to th enotion of relativity…

Regarding the measure of the distance, area, volumes and weight indeed each region of the world had its own units because the trade and exchange of products were essentially local. With the progressive extension of the exchanges between regions and countries the need for a standardization appeared more and more.
For example the problem of measuring grains is a quite difficult one: if one measures the weight, depending on how much humidity the grains contain, one has different amount of the real stuff. If one measures the volume of the grains, then according how compressed they are, the amount of the grains may be different… (at some point there was a law which stated that when a unit vessel of grains was to be sold, the seller should struck the bottom of the vessel on a table three times and then refill again sthe vessel for it to be full).

The measure of the distances on roads in the Persian empire had one unit and one subunit: « parasang » and « mil ». Parasang, which means « big stone » in Persian, was the average distance which a fantassin could walk in a certain amount of time, and was marked by a large piece of stone on the road (this is also reported by Herodotus). Each parasang was divided into three « mil », which means « iron bar » in Persian, and was marked by planting an iron bar on the road side. A parasang is between 5400 and 6000 meters, and thus a « mil » is something about 1800 and 2000 meters. These units were used in many areas outside the Persian empire, and are still used, in particular the parasang, in Iran and Afghanistan (in Iran a parasang is 6 kilometers now). (Personnaly I think the Roman mile has its origin in the Persian « mil »: I think the etymology of the word mile based on the word « mille », a thousand, cannot be correct since it does not correspond to one thousand of any other unit of length used in the Roman empire).

Best regards: Otared



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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/26/2022 9:41 AM, Otared Kavian via ntg-context wrote:
> 
>> On 26 Jan 2022, at 00:17, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>> […]
>> times (clocks) were definitely different per city
> 
> Regarding the issue of the absolute necessity of defining a standard time the book by Peter Galison « Einstein’s Clocks, Poincaré’s Maps » gives some interesting insight. In particular, since after the mid 19th century trains were developed while the time was not standardized, many accidents happened with hundreds of people killed. This led Henri Poincaré, Lorentz and Einstein (among other mathematcians and physicists) to th enotion of relativity…
Talking time,

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_calendar

is a good example of a failure to replace thousands of years of reality. 
So, maybe some measures (feet etc) will stay with us forever.

(I need to look up how these old cultured talked 'temperature'.)

Hans

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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

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In line with what Otared writes about the measurement of distances in 
the context of Persia and ancient Rome, I am always very surprised to 
see the precision of the measurements in the evaluation of the 
circumference of the earth by Eratosthenes of Cyrene. What intrigues me 
is not really the geometry calculations involved, but the calculation of 
the distance between Aswan and Alexandria. There is little information 
on the taking of this measurement: is it Egyptian surveyors (bematists: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bematist) or the use of an instrument 
equivalent to a pedometer? see here: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes


Le 26/01/2022 à 09:41, Otared Kavian via ntg-context a écrit :
>> On 26 Jan 2022, at 00:17, Hans Hagen via ntg-context<ntg-context@ntg.nl>  wrote:
>> […]
>> times (clocks) were definitely different per city
> Regarding the issue of the absolute necessity of defining a standard time the book by Peter Galison « Einstein’s Clocks, Poincaré’s Maps » gives some interesting insight. In particular, since after the mid 19th century trains were developed while the time was not standardized, many accidents happened with hundreds of people killed. This led Henri Poincaré, Lorentz and Einstein (among other mathematcians and physicists) to th enotion of relativity…
>
> Regarding the measure of the distance, area, volumes and weight indeed each region of the world had its own units because the trade and exchange of products were essentially local. With the progressive extension of the exchanges between regions and countries the need for a standardization appeared more and more.
> For example the problem of measuring grains is a quite difficult one: if one measures the weight, depending on how much humidity the grains contain, one has different amount of the real stuff. If one measures the volume of the grains, then according how compressed they are, the amount of the grains may be different… (at some point there was a law which stated that when a unit vessel of grains was to be sold, the seller should struck the bottom of the vessel on a table three times and then refill again sthe vessel for it to be full).
>
> The measure of the distances on roads in the Persian empire had one unit and one subunit: « parasang » and « mil ». Parasang, which means « big stone » in Persian, was the average distance which a fantassin could walk in a certain amount of time, and was marked by a large piece of stone on the road (this is also reported by Herodotus). Each parasang was divided into three « mil », which means « iron bar » in Persian, and was marked by planting an iron bar on the road side. A parasang is between 5400 and 6000 meters, and thus a « mil » is something about 1800 and 2000 meters. These units were used in many areas outside the Persian empire, and are still used, in particular the parasang, in Iran and Afghanistan (in Iran a parasang is 6 kilometers now). (Personnaly I think the Roman mile has its origin in the Persian « mil »: I think the etymology of the word mile based on the word « mille », a thousand, cannot be correct since it does not correspond to one thousand of any other unit of length used in the Roman empire).
>
> Best regards: Otared
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients&Moderns
Professeur Agrégé de Philosophie (HC)


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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/26/2022 10:23 AM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:
> In line with what Otared writes about the measurement of distances in 
> the context of Persia and ancient Rome, I am always very surprised to 
> see the precision of the measurements in the evaluation of the 
> circumference of the earth by Eratosthenes of Cyrene. What intrigues me 
> is not really the geometry calculations involved, but the calculation of 
> the distance between Aswan and Alexandria. There is little information 
> on the taking of this measurement: is it Egyptian surveyors (bematists: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bematist) or the use of an instrument 
> equivalent to a pedometer? see here: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes
    Eratosthenes of Cyrene was a Greek polymath ...

Ah ... that makes a great subtitle for Mikaels upcoming math manual: "A 
manual for polymathematicians"

    A polymath (Greek: πολυμαθής, polymathēs, "having learned much";

and then we can talk 'polymathematical typesetting' and such (I'm sure 
that Arthur can come up with a reflective historical tex-talk.)

Hans


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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[jbf via ntg-context]

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Just be careful, though (writing as a native English speaker), because 
the word 'polymath' for English speaker is not a reference to 
mathematicians at all. (Greek/mathē/ means 'learning' not mathematics). 
Translators are well aware of the danger of homonyms, and if you go for 
a title like Manual for Polymathematicians, then the word is being 
wrongly used. There is a word 'polymath' in English, but not 
'polymathematician', unless of course you make it clear that it is 
merely a play on words. But personally, I'd avoid that.

Julian

On 26/1/22 20:36, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> On 1/26/2022 10:23 AM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:
>> In line with what Otared writes about the measurement of distances in 
>> the context of Persia and ancient Rome, I am always very surprised to 
>> see the precision of the measurements in the evaluation of the 
>> circumference of the earth by Eratosthenes of Cyrene. What intrigues 
>> me is not really the geometry calculations involved, but the 
>> calculation of the distance between Aswan and Alexandria. There is 
>> little information on the taking of this measurement: is it Egyptian 
>> surveyors (bematists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bematist) or the 
>> use of an instrument equivalent to a pedometer? see here: 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes
>    Eratosthenes of Cyrene was a Greek polymath ...
>
> Ah ... that makes a great subtitle for Mikaels upcoming math manual: 
> "A manual for polymathematicians"
>
>    A polymath (Greek: πολυμαθής, polymathēs, "having learned much";
>
> and then we can talk 'polymathematical typesetting' and such (I'm sure 
> that Arthur can come up with a reflective historical tex-talk.)
>
> Hans
>
>
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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/26/2022 10:07 PM, jbf via ntg-context wrote:
> Just be careful, though (writing as a native English speaker), because 
> the word 'polymath' for English speaker is not a reference to 
> mathematicians at all. (Greek/mathē/ means 'learning' not mathematics). 
> Translators are well aware of the danger of homonyms, and if you go for 
> a title like Manual for Polymathematicians, then the word is being 
> wrongly used. There is a word 'polymath' in English, but not 
> 'polymathematician', unless of course you make it clear that it is 
> merely a play on words. But personally, I'd avoid that.
sure, it was a a play of word, although polymathematician as 
all-knowing-person definitely applies to Don Knuth which brings us back 
to TeX

Hans

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Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?

[BPJ via ntg-context]

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Den ons 26 jan. 2022 09:44Otared Kavian via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
skrev:

>
> > On 26 Jan 2022, at 00:17, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> wrote:
> > […]
> > times (clocks) were definitely different per city
>
> Regarding the issue of the absolute necessity of defining a standard time
> the book by Peter Galison « Einstein’s Clocks, Poincaré’s Maps » gives some
> interesting insight. In particular, since after the mid 19th century trains
> were developed while the time was not standardized, many accidents happened
> with hundreds of people killed. This led Henri Poincaré, Lorentz and
> Einstein (among other mathematcians and physicists) to th enotion of
> relativity…
>
> Regarding the measure of the distance, area, volumes and weight indeed
> each region of the world had its own units because the trade and exchange
> of products were essentially local. With the progressive extension of the
> exchanges between regions and countries the need for a standardization
> appeared more and more.
> For example the problem of measuring grains is a quite difficult one: if
> one measures the weight, depending on how much humidity the grains contain,
> one has different amount of the real stuff. If one measures the volume of
> the grains, then according how compressed they are, the amount of the
> grains may be different… (at some point there was a law which stated that
> when a unit vessel of grains was to be sold, the seller should struck the
> bottom of the vessel on a table three times and then refill again sthe
> vessel for it to be full).
>
> The measure of the distances on roads in the Persian empire had one unit
> and one subunit: « parasang » and « mil ». Parasang, which means « big
> stone » in Persian, was the average distance which a fantassin could walk
> in a certain amount of time, and was marked by a large piece of stone on
> the road (this is also reported by Herodotus). Each parasang was divided
> into three « mil », which means « iron bar » in Persian, and was marked by
> planting an iron bar on the road side. A parasang is between 5400 and 6000
> meters, and thus a « mil » is something about 1800 and 2000 meters. These
> units were used in many areas outside the Persian empire, and are still
> used, in particular the parasang, in Iran and Afghanistan (in Iran a
> parasang is 6 kilometers now).


(Personnaly I think the Roman mile has its origin in the Persian « mil »: I
> think the etymology of the word mile based on the word « mille », a
> thousand, cannot be correct since it does not correspond to one thousand of
> any other unit of length used in the Roman empire).
>

The unit of which the Roman mile was a thousand was a pace, which was
otherwise not commonly used as a measurement. The full Latin term is _milia
passum_, literally 'a thousand of steps', i.e. of a military unit on march.

I wonder if _mil_ as a Persian unit of measurement isn't spurious, or in
fact a Greek (or e.g. Phrygian) word since Old Persian did not have any /l/
sound. At least in the OP script PIE _*l_ has merged totally with _*r_. In
Middle Persian OP _rd_ became _l_. Possibly that happened early in the
spoken language.

/Benct



> Best regards: Otared
>
>
>
>
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