'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Pablo Rodríguez]

Hi there,

sorry for bothering again with this issue, but I need to be sure in
order to properly report to the font developer of FreeSerif.

I have the following file:

\usemodule[simplefonts][size=25pt]
\definefontfeature[latins][default][script=latn]
\setmainfont[FreeSerif]
\starttext
\showfontkerns
dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
\addfs{latins}
dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
\stoptext

The first line has no GPOS kern enabled and the second line has it.

In order to report it to the font developer (I have the problem not with
ConTeXt, but with my ereader [I used ConTeXt to check the font
features), I have the following questions:

-In the example above, is the old TrueType kern enabled on the first line?

-If not, how can I enable it, without enabling the liga or kern OpenType
features?

I need this to see the actual kerning form the old TrueType kern table
(I suspect it hasn't the same values as the OpenType kern feature).

Many thanks for your help,


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/30/2012 8:06 AM, Pablo Rodríguez wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> sorry for bothering again with this issue, but I need to be sure in
> order to properly report to the font developer of FreeSerif.
>
> I have the following file:
>
> \usemodule[simplefonts][size=25pt]
> \definefontfeature[latins][default][script=latn]
> \setmainfont[FreeSerif]
> \starttext
> \showfontkerns
> dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
> \addfs{latins}
> dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
> \stoptext
>
> The first line has no GPOS kern enabled and the second line has it.
>
> In order to report it to the font developer (I have the problem not with
> ConTeXt, but with my ereader [I used ConTeXt to check the font
> features), I have the following questions:
>
> -In the example above, is the old TrueType kern enabled on the first line?
>
> -If not, how can I enable it, without enabling the liga or kern OpenType
> features?
>
> I need this to see the actual kerning form the old TrueType kern table
> (I suspect it hasn't the same values as the OpenType kern feature).

We don't really make a distinction. Kerns are either a property of a 
character (truetype method) or are organized as lookups. Both are driven 
by 'kern' and it's not possible to choose a specific method as it's font 
driven. In the first case, enabling the kern feature will also enable 
the kerns and there is no dependency on language and script. In the 
second case a language script combination drives the injection of kerns. 
So, for each combination there can be different kerns (won't happen often).

Now, if a font designer decides to group kerns according to languages 
(makes less sense than for instance grouping ligatures which do have a 
dependency on languages) he/she has to make sure that it's done in such 
a way that it doesn't lock out.

For instance, you can have kerns (optionally in your font organized in 
classes) that kerns latin characters and group them in latn/dflt and do 
something similar for latn/<anylanguage>  but then you expect the user 
to choose the right combination. So, choosing latn/dflt can lock out 
greek or whatever. This means that when one defines kerns for say 
devanagari but also wants to have mixed in latin/* scripts supported, 
one could best also enable latn/* kerns there (just add lookups to the 
feature specification).

As the serif font you use has support for many scripts, extra care has 
to be taken for mixed usage. Also, normally a dflt/dflt combination is 
defined (read: no script or language chosen) which should work out okay 
for most cases. Anyhow, in the serif font (1) a dflt/dflt combination 
has to be supported (added) and (2) you/someone needs to check if when 
you choose greek, you still got kerning for latin.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6016 bytes --]

Hi Hans, Pablo, et al.

I'm the admin of GNU FreeFont.  I'll respond to some of these points.

1) I have yet to reproduce Pablo's output PDF on either of two systems.  As
I am unfamiliar with ConTeXt, I can only guess how it was built.  I tried
the file quoted here as input to the 'context' command, but it chokes on
the \showfontkerns line.  It would help very much to have a working example
with the proper command line to build it.

2) I understood that ConTeXt only uses the old-style TrueType 'kern' table,
rather than the OpenType 'kern' GPOS lookup.  If that is the case, I would
suggest that you consider to change the  logic to first use the OpenType
lookup, and if it doesn't exist, fall back to the TrueType table. Several
applications are already complaining that both exist; the plan is to drop
support for the TrueType table in FreeFont.

3) In most applications, the script of a run of text is determined from the
Unicode.  This is the assumption made in FreeFont.  The GNU FreeFont policy
starts from its essence as a Unicode font, in which no particular script is
default. (Some generic features that are not specific to any script, are in
{dflt,dflt}.)

There was a suggestion that Latin kerns should be activated by
{script,lang}={dflt,dflt}.  Let me ask, should Devanagari kerns also be
activated by {dflt, dflt}?  If not, why?

It appears that there maybe some conflict her with TeX implementaions.  I
don't completely understand this.  Maybe we can find a solution.

4) I have written something like Pablo's test using XeTeX and fontspec.
Kerning works very well with GNU FreeFont.  Find attached.

5) There was also a report that OpenType kerning doesn't work in some
E-Book readers (I know this isn't the forum for that, but ...) .  My iriver
Story kerns very nicely text in FreeSerif.  Can I get an example of an
E-reader for which kerning fails?  (I really don't doubt that they exist!)

Cheers!



On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 11/30/2012 8:06 AM, Pablo Rodríguez wrote:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> sorry for bothering again with this issue, but I need to be sure in
>> order to properly report to the font developer of FreeSerif.
>>
>> I have the following file:
>>
>> \usemodule[simplefonts][size=**25pt]
>> \definefontfeature[latins][**default][script=latn]
>> \setmainfont[FreeSerif]
>> \starttext
>> \showfontkerns
>> dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlale**lilolutatetitotu\par
>> \addfs{latins}
>> dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlale**lilolutatetitotu\par
>> \stoptext
>>
>> The first line has no GPOS kern enabled and the second line has it.
>>
>> In order to report it to the font developer (I have the problem not with
>> ConTeXt, but with my ereader [I used ConTeXt to check the font
>> features), I have the following questions:
>>
>> -In the example above, is the old TrueType kern enabled on the first line?
>>
>> -If not, how can I enable it, without enabling the liga or kern OpenType
>> features?
>>
>> I need this to see the actual kerning form the old TrueType kern table
>> (I suspect it hasn't the same values as the OpenType kern feature).
>>
>
> We don't really make a distinction. Kerns are either a property of a
> character (truetype method) or are organized as lookups. Both are driven by
> 'kern' and it's not possible to choose a specific method as it's font
> driven. In the first case, enabling the kern feature will also enable the
> kerns and there is no dependency on language and script. In the second case
> a language script combination drives the injection of kerns. So, for each
> combination there can be different kerns (won't happen often).
>
> Now, if a font designer decides to group kerns according to languages
> (makes less sense than for instance grouping ligatures which do have a
> dependency on languages) he/she has to make sure that it's done in such a
> way that it doesn't lock out.
>
> For instance, you can have kerns (optionally in your font organized in
> classes) that kerns latin characters and group them in latn/dflt and do
> something similar for latn/<anylanguage>  but then you expect the user to
> choose the right combination. So, choosing latn/dflt can lock out greek or
> whatever. This means that when one defines kerns for say devanagari but
> also wants to have mixed in latin/* scripts supported, one could best also
> enable latn/* kerns there (just add lookups to the feature specification).
>
> As the serif font you use has support for many scripts, extra care has to
> be taken for mixed usage. Also, normally a dflt/dflt combination is defined
> (read: no script or language chosen) which should work out okay for most
> cases. Anyhow, in the serif font (1) a dflt/dflt combination has to be
> supported (added) and (2) you/someone needs to check if when you choose
> greek, you still got kerning for latin.
>
> Hans
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**-----
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**-----
> ______________________________**______________________________**
> _______________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/**
> listinfo/ntg-context <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context>
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/**projects/contextrev/<http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/>
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ______________________________**______________________________**
> _______________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

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On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Hans, Pablo, et al.
>
> I'm the admin of GNU FreeFont.  I'll respond to some of these points.
>
> 1) I have yet to reproduce Pablo's output PDF on either of two systems.  As
> I am unfamiliar with ConTeXt, I can only guess how it was built.  I tried
> the file quoted here as input to the 'context' command, but it chokes on the
> \showfontkerns line.  It would help very much to have a working example with
> the proper command line to build it.
it's ok with freefont-ttf-20120503.zip
and the latest context.
You can install it from
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Standalone
and it's better to put into a separated folder than texlive .


--
luigi

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

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Hi Luigi,

I am lacking still

    * a working input (*.tex) file
    * the command line to build it with ConTeXt

There are already two ConTeXt installations on different machines here.
The most recent is 2012.05.30 MKIV, on Ubuntu.
Are you saying I have to install the latest version of ConTeXt to see the
effects being discussed?

I see vertical lines in your attached PDF... is this a new complaint?
I thought the problem was that sometimes kerning isn't activated.

Thanks!


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:18 AM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Hans, Pablo, et al.
> >
> > I'm the admin of GNU FreeFont.  I'll respond to some of these points.
> >
> > 1) I have yet to reproduce Pablo's output PDF on either of two systems.
>  As
> > I am unfamiliar with ConTeXt, I can only guess how it was built.  I tried
> > the file quoted here as input to the 'context' command, but it chokes on
> the
> > \showfontkerns line.  It would help very much to have a working example
> with
> > the proper command line to build it.
> it's ok with freefont-ttf-20120503.zip
> and the latest context.
> You can install it from
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/ConTeXt_Standalone
> and it's better to put into a separated folder than texlive .
>
>
> --
> luigi
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Luigi,
>
> I am lacking still
>
>     * a working input (*.tex) file
%% test.tex
\usemodule[simplefonts][size=25pt]
\definefontfeature[latins][default][script=latn]
\setmainfont[FreeSerif]
\starttext
\showfontkerns
dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
\addfs{latins}
dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
\stoptext





>     * the command line to build it with ConTeXt
$> context test.tex

>
> There are already two ConTeXt installations on different machines here.
> The most recent is 2012.05.30 MKIV, on Ubuntu.
> Are you saying I have to install the latest version of ConTeXt to see the
> effects being discussed?
Quick how-to
$>##  install latest minimals under  /opt/luatex/standalone-new
$>## and run the test
$>mkdir -p /opt/luatex/standalone-new
$>cd /opt/luatex/standalone-new
$>wget http://minimals.contextgarden.net/setup/first-setup.sh
$>bash /first-setup.sh --modules=simplefonts
$>## wait a little
$>cd tex
$>source setuptex
$>## ok we shoudl have context mkiv now
$>context --version
$>cd texmf-project
$>mkdir fonts &&  cd fonts
$>wget http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/freefont/freefont-src-20120503.zip
$>unzip freefont-src-20120503.zip
$>cd freefont-20120503
$>mv *.ttf  ../
$>cd ..
$>mtxrun --script font --reload
$>## let's see if they are installed
$>mtxrun --script fonts --list --all|grep free
$>cd ..
$>## put the test.tex here
$>context test.tex



>
> I see vertical lines in your attached PDF... is this a new complaint?
vertical bars are the result of \showkerns
> I thought the problem was that sometimes kerning isn't activated.
could be.

--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3217 bytes --]

Hi Luigi,

As I said, this example does not produce a PDF file for me.  I will attach
the output.

Undefined control sequence ...
...and it points to \showfontkerns

In previous attempts to load a font file directly, I used a command
structures something like
     [file:FreeSerif.otf*default],
but these never worked for me either,
and you seem to be using some other method.
How should one load the file for this example?

You didn't answer the question: to investigate this behaviour, must I
install a second, newer version of context, or can I use the disro
version?  What is the reason for installing the latest version of ConTeXt?
Is this \showfontkerns only in versions newer than 2012.05.30 11:26 MKIV ?

This \showfontkerns may be interesting to me, generally.  (So I have a
further incentive to get this going!)



On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 1:24 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Luigi,
> >
> > I am lacking still
> >
> >     * a working input (*.tex) file
> %% test.tex
> \usemodule[simplefonts][size=25pt]
> \definefontfeature[latins][default][script=latn]
> \setmainfont[FreeSerif]
> \starttext
> \showfontkerns
> dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
> \addfs{latins}
> dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
> \stoptext
>
>
>
>
>
> >     * the command line to build it with ConTeXt
> $> context test.tex
>
> >
> > There are already two ConTeXt installations on different machines here.
> > The most recent is 2012.05.30 MKIV, on Ubuntu.
> > Are you saying I have to install the latest version of ConTeXt to see the
> > effects being discussed?
> Quick how-to
> $>##  install latest minimals under  /opt/luatex/standalone-new
> $>## and run the test
> $>mkdir -p /opt/luatex/standalone-new
> $>cd /opt/luatex/standalone-new
> $>wget http://minimals.contextgarden.net/setup/first-setup.sh
> $>bash /first-setup.sh --modules=simplefonts
> $>## wait a little
> $>cd tex
> $>source setuptex
> $>## ok we shoudl have context mkiv now
> $>context --version
> $>cd texmf-project
> $>mkdir fonts &&  cd fonts
> $>wget http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/freefont/freefont-src-20120503.zip
> $>unzip freefont-src-20120503.zip
> $>cd freefont-20120503
> $>mv *.ttf  ../
> $>cd ..
> $>mtxrun --script font --reload
> $>## let's see if they are installed
> $>mtxrun --script fonts --list --all|grep free
> $>cd ..
> $>## put the test.tex here
> $>context test.tex
>
>
>
> >
> > I see vertical lines in your attached PDF... is this a new complaint?
> vertical bars are the result of \showkerns
> > I thought the problem was that sometimes kerning isn't activated.
> could be.
>
> --
> luigi
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 15200 bytes --]

(context-kern1.tex

ConTeXt  ver: 2011.05.18 18:04 MKIV  fmt: 2012.11.30  int: english/english

system          > cont-new.mkiv loaded
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/context/base/cont-new.mkiv
system          > beware: some patches loaded from cont-new.mkiv
)
system          > context-kern1.top loaded
system          > options > begin of optionfile
system          > options >
system          > options > % runtime options files (command line driven)
system          > options > \unprotect
system          > options > % feedback and basic job control
system          > options > % handy for special styles
system          > options > \startluacode
system          > options > document = document or { }
system          > options > document.arguments={
system          > options > }
system          > options > document.files={
system          > options >  "context-kern1.tex",
system          > options > }
system          > options > \stopluacode
system          > options > % process info
system          > options > \setupsystem[inputfile=context-kern1.tex]
system          > options > \setupsystem[\c!n=1,\c!m=1]
system          > options > % modes
system          > options > % options (not that important)
system          > options > \startsetups *runtime:options
system          > options > \stopsetups
system          > options > % styles and modules
system          > options > \startsetups *runtime:modules
system          > options > \stopsetups
system          > options > % done
system          > options > \protect \endinput
system          > options >
system          > options > end of optionfile
(context-kern1.top)
fonts           > latin modern fonts are not preloaded
languages       > language en is active
resolvers       > modules > loaded: 'simplefonts'
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/context/third/simplefonts/t-simplefonts.tex
loading         > ConTeXt User Module / Simplefonts
<+ /usr/share/texmf/tex/context/third/simplefonts/t-simplefonts.lua>)
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
fonts           > names > font database has matching configuration and file hashes
simplefonts     > font 'freeserif' not found
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/context/base/type-siz.mkiv) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/context/base/type-otf.mkiv){/usr/share/texmf/fonts/map/dvips/lm/lm-math.map}{/usr/share/texmf/fonts/map/dvips/lm/lm-rm.map}{/usr/share/texmf/fonts/map/pdftex/context/mkiv-base.map}
fonts           > defining > forced type otf of lmmath not found
fonts           > defining > font with asked name 'lmmath' is not found using lookup 'file'
fonts           > defining > unknown font lmmath, loading aborted
fonts           > defining > unable to define lmmath.otf as \*simplefonts:112.5ptmmmr33*
fonts           > defining > forced type otf of lmmath not found
fonts           > defining > font with asked name 'lmmath' is not found using lookup 'file'
fonts           > defining > unknown font lmmath, loading aborted
fonts           > defining > unable to define lmmath.otf as \*simplefonts:117.5ptmmmr22*
fonts           > defining > forced type otf of lmmath not found
fonts           > defining > font with asked name 'lmmath' is not found using lookup 'file'
fonts           > defining > unknown font lmmath, loading aborted
fonts           > defining > unable to define lmmath.otf as \*simplefonts:125ptmmmr11*
system          > begin file context-kern1.tex at line 5
! Undefined control sequence.

system          > tex > error on line 6 in file context-kern1.tex: Undefined control sequence ...

 1     
 2     \usemodule[simplefonts][size=25pt]
 3     \definefontfeature[latins][default][script=latn]
 4     \setmainfont[FreeSerif]
 5     \starttext
 6 >>  \showfontkerns
 7     dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
 8     \addfs{latins}
 9     dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
10     \stoptext
11     

l.6 \showfontkerns
                  
? x
mkiv lua stats  > used config file          - selfautodir:/share/texmf/web2c/texmfcnf.lua
mkiv lua stats  > used cache path           - readable: '/home/swhite/.texmf-var/luatex-cache/context/f919750633122078d706dd10f1cfd39b' (order 2)
mkiv lua stats  > used cache path           - writable: '/home/swhite/.texmf-var/luatex-cache/context/f919750633122078d706dd10f1cfd39b'
mkiv lua stats  > input load time           - 0.086 seconds
mkiv lua stats  > stored bytecode data      - 285 modules, 60 tables, 345 chunks
mkiv lua stats  > loaded tex modules        - 1 requested, 1 found (*-simplefonts), 0 missing
mkiv lua stats  > cleaned up reserved nodes - 30 nodes, 9 lists of 423
mkiv lua stats  > node memory usage         - 18 glue_spec, 1 dir
mkiv lua stats  > node list callback tasks  - 6 unique task lists, 1 instances (re)created, 4080 calls
mkiv lua stats  > used backend              - pdf (backend for directly generating pdf output)
mkiv lua stats  > loaded patterns           - en::2
mkiv lua stats  > callbacks                 - 4102 direct, 3765 indirect, 7867 total
mkiv lua stats  > result saved in file      - context-kern1.pdf
mkiv lua stats  > loaded fonts              - 1 files: lmmonoprop10-regular.otf
mkiv lua stats  > fonts load time           - 0.121 seconds 
mkiv lua stats  > luatex banner             - this is luatex, version beta-0.70.1-2011120612
mkiv lua stats  > control sequences         - 31332 of 165536
mkiv lua stats  > current memory usage      - 19 MB (ctx: 19 MB)
mkiv lua stats  > runtime                   - 6.398 seconds


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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Luigi,
>
> As I said, this example does not produce a PDF file for me.  I will attach
> the output.
>
> Undefined control sequence ...
> ...and it points to \showfontkerns
>
> In previous attempts to load a font file directly, I used a command
> structures something like
>      [file:FreeSerif.otf*default],
> but these never worked for me either,
> and you seem to be using some other method.
> How should one load the file for this example?
>
> You didn't answer the question: to investigate this behaviour, must I
> install a second, newer version of context, or can I use the disro version?
> What is the reason for installing the latest version of ConTeXt?  Is this
> \showfontkerns only in versions newer than 2012.05.30 11:26 MKIV ?
>

1) install a new version ,as I said in my prev. email under "Quick how-to"

2) save this
%% test.tex
\usemodule[simplefonts][size=25pt]
\definefontfeature[latins][default][script=latn]
\setmainfont[FreeSerif]
\starttext
\showfontkerns
dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
\addfs{latins}
dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlalelilolutatetitotu\par
\stoptext
into test.tex, and then see the last lines of "Quick how-to"


> This \showfontkerns may be interesting to me, generally.  (So I have a
> further incentive to get this going!)
there are many other details to discover


--
luigi
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/30/2012 4:30 PM, luigi scarso wrote:

>> What is the reason for installing the latest version of ConTeXt?  Is this
>> \showfontkerns only in versions newer than 2012.05.30 11:26 MKIV ?

in that version it was an add-on module, but in the meantime it's in the 
core

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 633 bytes --]

Hi Hans,


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 11/30/2012 4:30 PM, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>  What is the reason for installing the latest version of ConTeXt?  Is this
>>> \showfontkerns only in versions newer than 2012.05.30 11:26 MKIV ?
>>>
>>
> in that version it was an add-on module, but in the meantime it's in the
> core
>
>
That would explain part of my problems.

If possible, I would like to get the distro version working, before moving
to the latest version.

Is this add-on module in some Debian package, or must one install it by
hand?
If the latter, what would be involved?

Thanks!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/30/2012 7:12 PM, Steve White wrote:
> Hi Hans,
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl
> <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote:
>
>     On 11/30/2012 4:30 PM, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>             What is the reason for installing the latest version of
>             ConTeXt?  Is this
>             \showfontkerns only in versions newer than 2012.05.30 11:26
>             MKIV ?
>
>
>     in that version it was an add-on module, but in the meantime it's in
>     the core
>
>
> That would explain part of my problems.
>
> If possible, I would like to get the distro version working, before
> moving to the latest version.
>
> Is this add-on module in some Debian package, or must one install it by
> hand?
> If the latter, what would be involved?

I think it was part of a set of modules we used for testing (some ended 
up in the distribution, some didn't) so i fear that you need a recent 
context; handy anyway, as things might have been improved and I wonder 
if there are many context users using an old version, given that luatex 
/ mkiv / mplib / gyre fonts are progressing.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If possible, I would like to get the distro version working, before moving
> to the latest version.
hm, hard and useless
> Is this add-on module in some Debian package, or must one install it by
> hand?
> If the latter, what would be involved?
no *deb package, as far I know.
We usually  have the latest  context mkiv beta as reference, plus some
"current"s.
It's quite common that mkiv from texlive is too old (and those ones
form the distro too). but it's not a problem because installation is
easy.


--
luigi
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1324 bytes --]

Luigi,

OK, I get it. (I have wasted a couple of hours, it seems.)

I'll do as you first recommeded.


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 8:37 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > If possible, I would like to get the distro version working, before
> moving
> > to the latest version.
> hm, hard and useless
> > Is this add-on module in some Debian package, or must one install it by
> > hand?
> > If the latter, what would be involved?
> no *deb package, as far I know.
> We usually  have the latest  context mkiv beta as reference, plus some
> "current"s.
> It's quite common that mkiv from texlive is too old (and those ones
> form the distro too). but it's not a problem because installation is
> easy.
>
>
> --
> luigi
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/30/2012 10:25 PM, Steve White wrote:
> Luigi,
>
> OK, I get it. (I have wasted a couple of hours, it seems.)
>
> I'll do as you first recommeded.

When you have a working context, you can also try the update process: 
just run the first-setup script again and it will sync. Normally the 
minimals are synced every 30 minutes (or nowadays maybe 15). Keep in 
mind that these days Mojca is moving the whole setup to a new server.

I've uploaded a beta that supports this:

\starttext

\enabletrackers[visualizers.fontkern]
\setupscripts[features=auto]
\definedfont[freeserif*default]

\language[en]Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the 
equal and inalienable
rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, 
justice
and peace in the world.

\language[gr]Επειδή η αναγνώριση της αξιοπρέπειας, που είναι σύμφυτη σε 
όλα τα μέλη της ανθρώπινης
οικογένειας, καθώς και των ίσων και αναπαλλοτρίωτων δικαιωμάτων τους 
αποτελεί
το θεμέλιο της ελευθερίας, της δικαιοσύνης και της ειρήνης στον κόσμο.

\language[en]Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have 
resulted in barbarous acts
which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world 
in which
human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from 
fear and
want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people.

\language[gr]Επειδή η παραγνώριση και η περιφρόνηση των δικαιωμάτων του 
ανθρώπου οδήγησαν σε
πράξεις βαρβαρότητας, που εξεγείρουν την ανθρώπινη συνείδηση, και η 
προοπτική ενός
κόσμου όπου οι άνθρωποι θα είναι ελεύθεροι να μιλούν και να πιστεύουν, 
λυτρωμένοι από
τον τρόμο και την αθλιότητα, έχει διακηρυχθεί ως η πιο υψηλή επιδίωξη 
του ανθρώπου.

\stoptext

Here

   \enabletrackers[visualizers.fontkern]

is actually the official way to trigger the kern tracker (we keep some 
\commands around for old times sake) as it's part of more visual 
debugging features.

   \setupscripts[features=auto]

This one is new and will do an analysis pass and set triggers for the so 
called dynamic feature handler (already present, so it was not that much 
work). One has to explicitly enable this trick and one can never depend 
on such things. Contrary to other tricks it does not obey grouping 
(could be done but adds overhead.)

   \definedfont[freeserif*default]

This triggers the font. One can comment the \setupscripts line to see 
kerns go away.

I only defined latn and grek:

\definefontfeature[latn][script=latn]
\definefontfeature[grek][script=grek]

so it uses the regular feature definition mechanism. If this is 
considered useful we can add more and also think about a namespace (i.e. 
several predefined setups). In that case I will add the code that obeys 
grouping. But in order to do that we need tests and that's up to users.

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Pablo Rodríguez]

Thanks for all replies Hans, Steve, Bill and Luigi.

Sorry for the confusion generated by my questions. I'll try to summarize
the whole thing as brief as I can.

I happen to have an Sony PRS-T1 reader in which I noticed that the
FreeSerif fonts where wrong kerned. I thought it might be something
wrong in the fonts and I used ConTeXt to check that.

Until this morning I asked whether TrueType kerning was enabled when all
OpenType features were disabled, I took for granted that that old
TrueType kerning was enabled when the modern OpenType kerning wasn't.

Now I know I was wrong. But I reported a bug at
https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/freefont/ and posted the PDF output
from ConTeXt.

ConTeXt is perfectly fine with FreeSerif, FreeSerif has valid kerning
and the problem is in the Sony PRS-T1 reader that cannot read the
kerning and ligature information.

I have even discovered that the Sony PRS-T1 ereader has a bug that
prevents the display of the FreeSerif bold font.

So, I knew that the ereader had some limitations, but I couldn't imagine
it was so buggy.

The annoying issue here is that reporting the bug may fix the issue and
Adobe might release a new version of the reader. But unless Sony
releases a new firmware, those bugs are there to stay.

Many thanks for your help and apologies for the confusion,



Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2358 bytes --]

Hi Luigi,

I got ConTeXt installed and running, but the install was very choppy.

FYI the script you gave me had several problems, which I'll detail here.

1) Throughout you want
       freefont-ttf-20120503
    rather than
       freefont-src-20120503

2) This line has a stray backslash character
       bash /first-setup.sh --modules=simplefonts

3) The command
      mtxrun --script font --reload
    searches a bunch of directories for fonts, but not the directory
      texmf-project/fonts/
    My work-around was just to copy the *.ttf files to
      texmf-fonts/
    and then re-do the mtxrun line.

4) You might want to explain that the
      source /opt/luatex/standalone-new/tex/setuptex
    has to be done once at the start of each session, or else bad things
happen.

5) Generally it would be good to dilineate what should be done as root,
    and where normal user stuff starts.

Thanks!


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com>wrote:

> Luigi,
>
> OK, I get it. (I have wasted a couple of hours, it seems.)
>
> I'll do as you first recommeded.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 8:37 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > If possible, I would like to get the distro version working, before
>> moving
>> > to the latest version.
>> hm, hard and useless
>> > Is this add-on module in some Debian package, or must one install it by
>> > hand?
>> > If the latter, what would be involved?
>> no *deb package, as far I know.
>> We usually  have the latest  context mkiv beta as reference, plus some
>> "current"s.
>> It's quite common that mkiv from texlive is too old (and those ones
>> form the distro too). but it's not a problem because installation is
>> easy.
>>
>>
>> --
>> luigi
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
>> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>
>

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Luigi,
>
> I got ConTeXt installed and running, but the install was very choppy.
>
> FYI the script you gave me had several problems, which I'll detail here.
>
> 1) Throughout you want
>        freefont-ttf-20120503
>     rather than
>        freefont-src-20120503
yes, sorry  (btw  It would be nice to support the sfd format ...)

>
> 2) This line has a stray backslash character
>        bash /first-setup.sh --modules=simplefonts
yes again sorry --  bash  first-setup.sh --modules=simplefonts
or
bash ./first-setup.sh --modules=simplefonts
>
> 3) The command
>       mtxrun --script font --reload
>     searches a bunch of directories for fonts, but not the directory
>       texmf-project/fonts/
>     My work-around was just to copy the *.ttf files to
>       texmf-fonts/
>     and then re-do the mtxrun line.
Hm, no, this is strange --- are you sure ?
If I remove the files from texmf-project/fonts/
and make
mtxrun --script font --reload
I have
mtxrun --script font --list --all|grep Free
But when I copy them again in
texmf-project/fonts/
and
mtxrun --script font --reload
then
mtxrun --script font --list --all|grep Free
then I see

freemono                             freemono
FreeMono.ttf
freemonobold                         freemonobold
FreeMonoBold.ttf
freemonoboldoblique                  freemonoboldoblique
FreeMonoBoldOblique.ttf
freemononormal                       freemonooblique
FreeMonoOblique.ttf
freemonooblique                      freemonooblique
FreeMonoOblique.ttf
freesans                             freesans
FreeSans.ttf
freesansbold                         freesansbold
FreeSansBold.ttf
freesansboldoblique                  freesansboldoblique
FreeSansBoldOblique.ttf
freesansdemi                         freesansbold
FreeSansBold.ttf
freesansnormal                       freesansoblique
FreeSansOblique.ttf
freesansoblique                      freesansoblique
FreeSansOblique.ttf
freeserif                            freeserif
FreeSerif.ttf
freeserifbold                        freeserifbold
FreeSerifBold.ttf
freeserifbolditalic                  freeserifbolditalic
FreeSerifBoldItalic.ttf
freeserifitalic                      freeserifitalic
FreeSerifItalic.ttf
freeserifnormal                      freeserifitalic
FreeSerifItalic.ttf

I also see

fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for otf files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for OTF files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for ttf files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for TTF files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for ttc files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for TTC files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for dfont files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for DFONT files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for afm files
fonts           | names | scanning
/opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for AFM files

The problem with texmf-fonts/
is that is keep in sync with the original source, and hence the files
can be deleted.

>
> 4) You might want to explain that the
>       source /opt/luatex/standalone-new/tex/setuptex
>     has to be done once at the start of each session, or else bad things
> happen.
Hm , nothing bad:  you use the default pdftex/xetex/luatex --- nothing
of catastrophic, this  doesn't touch your mkiv in anyway.
Given that mkiv require some experience, the default is to leave the
distro to manage the TeX installation
and the user to setup the appropriate environment.


> 5) Generally it would be good to dilineate what should be done as root,
>     and where normal user stuff starts.
Hm, to be root is not required -- have you found some problem ?


--
luigi
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, luigi scarso wrote:

>> 5) Generally it would be good to dilineate what should be done as root,
>>     and where normal user stuff starts.
> Hm, to be root is not required -- have you found some problem ?

Usually, normal users do not have write permissions in /opt directory.

Aditya
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>>> 5) Generally it would be good to dilineate what should be done as root,
>>>     and where normal user stuff starts.
>>
>> Hm, to be root is not required -- have you found some problem ?
>
>
> Usually, normal users do not have write permissions in /opt directory.
If we follow strict rules,  "normal" user should not  install the
latest context -- only the admin.


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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, luigi scarso wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, luigi scarso wrote:
>>
>>>> 5) Generally it would be good to dilineate what should be done as root,
>>>>     and where normal user stuff starts.
>>>
>>> Hm, to be root is not required -- have you found some problem ?
>>
>>
>> Usually, normal users do not have write permissions in /opt directory.
> If we follow strict rules,  "normal" user should not  install the
> latest context -- only the admin.

And hence Steve's remark that the installation instruction should 
differentiate between what needs to be dun as root and what as normal user 
(the user run context --make needs to have write permission in 
TEXMFCACHE).

Aditya
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 1 Dec 2012, luigi scarso wrote:
>>>
>>>>> 5) Generally it would be good to dilineate what should be done as root,
>>>>>     and where normal user stuff starts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hm, to be root is not required -- have you found some problem ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Usually, normal users do not have write permissions in /opt directory.
>>
>> If we follow strict rules,  "normal" user should not  install the
>> latest context -- only the admin.
>
>
> And hence Steve's remark that the installation instruction should
> differentiate between what needs to be dun as root and what as normal user
> (the user run context --make needs to have write permission in TEXMFCACHE).
A normal user cannot even download first-setup.sh and install the files.

But if he can
then he can install context under his home and mkiv works ok -- no
need to be root.
This can be  useful in a server that run context as service -- create
a  user that manage the context, a common pattern
(apache, mysql, postgres, etc).

About /opt ,
it's a location for add-on,  and it's usually unused by standard
distro (so one  leaves the machine clean.): see
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#OPTADDONAPPLICATIONSOFTWAREPACKAGES
In this situation the choice between homedir and /opt is of course a
personal taste, and I prefer to install
general applications (or applications that can be of general utility)
under /opt .



--
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

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Hi all,

I finally got something like Pablo's test working on my system.  It doesn't
show much new.  As had already been established, with the right ConTeXt
switches, OpenType features of kerning and ligatures work correctly with
FreeSerif.

Find attached.  If there's a better way to do this, please comment: I may
put some of this in the FreeFront usage notes.  (Hm... I may tighten the
italic y a bit.)

A question remains: Why does ConTeXt (like some other TeX derivatives that
use OpenType) not determine the OpenType script of runs of text from the
Unicode (or other encoding) character range?  All other font layout systems
I know of do this.  (Remember- a run of text in the OpenType sense is not
the same as the scope of a TeX environment, it is typically a word,
separated by white space or punctuation.)

Maybe there is some rationale, but I haven't heard it yet.

Let me propose a different interpretation for the existing 'script' setting
as used in the \definefontfeature command in the attached tex file:

* If it is not present, the engine would revert to using the script
indicated by the encoding for each run of text.

* If it is present, it would mean "activate only features that match the
specified script".

It appears to me this would not change the rendering of many documents, if
any, but it would alleviate the confusion that gave rise to this thread.

Cheers!

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Khaled Hosny]

On Sun, Dec 02, 2012 at 10:58:56AM +0100, Steve White wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I finally got something like Pablo's test working on my system.  It doesn't
> show much new.  As had already been established, with the right ConTeXt
> switches, OpenType features of kerning and ligatures work correctly with
> FreeSerif.
> 
> Find attached.  If there's a better way to do this, please comment: I may
> put some of this in the FreeFront usage notes.  (Hm... I may tighten the
> italic y a bit.)
> 
> A question remains: Why does ConTeXt (like some other TeX derivatives that
> use OpenType) not determine the OpenType script of runs of text from the
> Unicode (or other encoding) character range?  All other font layout systems
> I know of do this.  (Remember- a run of text in the OpenType sense is not
> the same as the scope of a TeX environment, it is typically a word,
> separated by white space or punctuation.)

Determining the script of a run of text is not that simple, take
"english (ARABIC.)"; to which script should the parenthesis and the
period be classified? (they have a "common" script property in Unicode
and not assigned to any given script). Unicode annex #24 provides an
algorithm for to handle this that an engine should implement:
http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/

Regards,
 Khaled
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2034 bytes --]

Determinig the script from the text is not hard.

It has been done in many projects.



On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 02, 2012 at 10:58:56AM +0100, Steve White wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I finally got something like Pablo's test working on my system.  It
> doesn't
> > show much new.  As had already been established, with the right ConTeXt
> > switches, OpenType features of kerning and ligatures work correctly with
> > FreeSerif.
> >
> > Find attached.  If there's a better way to do this, please comment: I may
> > put some of this in the FreeFront usage notes.  (Hm... I may tighten the
> > italic y a bit.)
> >
> > A question remains: Why does ConTeXt (like some other TeX derivatives
> that
> > use OpenType) not determine the OpenType script of runs of text from the
> > Unicode (or other encoding) character range?  All other font layout
> systems
> > I know of do this.  (Remember- a run of text in the OpenType sense is not
> > the same as the scope of a TeX environment, it is typically a word,
> > separated by white space or punctuation.)
>
> Determining the script of a run of text is not that simple, take
> "english (ARABIC.)"; to which script should the parenthesis and the
> period be classified? (they have a "common" script property in Unicode
> and not assigned to any given script). Unicode annex #24 provides an
> algorithm for to handle this that an engine should implement:
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/
>
> Regards,
>  Khaled
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Khaled Hosny]

And how many of them do it right? None, not even Pango, not even
Firefox, all are broken in some subtle ways. I'm not saying it is hard,
though, I'm saying it is complex.

Regards,
 Khaled

On Sun, Dec 02, 2012 at 03:32:49PM +0100, Steve White wrote:
> Determinig the script from the text is not hard.
> 
> It has been done in many projects.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Dec 02, 2012 at 10:58:56AM +0100, Steve White wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I finally got something like Pablo's test working on my system.  It
> > doesn't
> > > show much new.  As had already been established, with the right ConTeXt
> > > switches, OpenType features of kerning and ligatures work correctly with
> > > FreeSerif.
> > >
> > > Find attached.  If there's a better way to do this, please comment: I may
> > > put some of this in the FreeFront usage notes.  (Hm... I may tighten the
> > > italic y a bit.)
> > >
> > > A question remains: Why does ConTeXt (like some other TeX derivatives
> > that
> > > use OpenType) not determine the OpenType script of runs of text from the
> > > Unicode (or other encoding) character range?  All other font layout
> > systems
> > > I know of do this.  (Remember- a run of text in the OpenType sense is not
> > > the same as the scope of a TeX environment, it is typically a word,
> > > separated by white space or punctuation.)
> >
> > Determining the script of a run of text is not that simple, take
> > "english (ARABIC.)"; to which script should the parenthesis and the
> > period be classified? (they have a "common" script property in Unicode
> > and not assigned to any given script). Unicode annex #24 provides an
> > algorithm for to handle this that an engine should implement:
> > http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24/
> >
> > Regards,
> >  Khaled
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> > the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> > archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> > wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________________________________
> >

> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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> 
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4130 bytes --]

Hi Luigi,

I have something to add to only one of your points:

On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 8:22 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>  >
> > 3) The command
> >       mtxrun --script font --reload
> >     searches a bunch of directories for fonts, but not the directory
> >       texmf-project/fonts/
> >     My work-around was just to copy the *.ttf files to
> >       texmf-fonts/
> >     and then re-do the mtxrun line.
> Hm, no, this is strange --- are you sure ?
> If I remove the files from texmf-project/fonts/
> and make
> mtxrun --script font --reload
> I have
> mtxrun --script font --list --all|grep Free
> But when I copy them again in
> texmf-project/fonts/
> and
> mtxrun --script font --reload
> then
> mtxrun --script font --list --all|grep Free
> then I see
>
> freemono                             freemono
> FreeMono.ttf
> freemonobold                         freemonobold
> FreeMonoBold.ttf
> freemonoboldoblique                  freemonoboldoblique
> FreeMonoBoldOblique.ttf
> freemononormal                       freemonooblique
> FreeMonoOblique.ttf
> freemonooblique                      freemonooblique
> FreeMonoOblique.ttf
> freesans                             freesans
> FreeSans.ttf
> freesansbold                         freesansbold
> FreeSansBold.ttf
> freesansboldoblique                  freesansboldoblique
> FreeSansBoldOblique.ttf
> freesansdemi                         freesansbold
> FreeSansBold.ttf
> freesansnormal                       freesansoblique
> FreeSansOblique.ttf
> freesansoblique                      freesansoblique
> FreeSansOblique.ttf
> freeserif                            freeserif
> FreeSerif.ttf
> freeserifbold                        freeserifbold
> FreeSerifBold.ttf
> freeserifbolditalic                  freeserifbolditalic
> FreeSerifBoldItalic.ttf
> freeserifitalic                      freeserifitalic
> FreeSerifItalic.ttf
> freeserifnormal                      freeserifitalic
> FreeSerifItalic.ttf
>
> I also see
>
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for otf files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for OTF files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for ttf files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for TTF files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for ttc files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for TTC files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for dfont files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for DFONT files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for afm files
> fonts           | names | scanning
> /opt/luatex/standalone-mkiv/tex/texmf-project for AFM files
>
> The problem with texmf-fonts/
> is that is keep in sync with the original source, and hence the files
> can be deleted.
>
>
> I can assure you, this fonts/ directory was not in the list produced by
the mtxrun command on my system.

Something is different between your system and mine.
This might be worth investigating.  (But I won't have time for it!)

Perhaps you have a file somewhere that adds this other directory.  This is
my best guess.

It is also possible something was left over on my system from the previous
distro installation.  However I removed that installation with the dpkg
--purge command, which should have removed all settings files.  I didn't
alter any configuration files myself, I only tried (unsuccessfully) to run
context on some tex files.

As I had only turned context on a few times, and never done any
configuration, it is easy to reproduce my setup:  Start with the latest
Ubuntu, and install the 'context' package.
Then remove it with --purge, and follow your instructions to install the
recent 'context' in /opt.

Cheers!

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:

> I can assure you, this fonts/ directory was not in the list produced by the
> mtxrun command on my system.
yes, but you should see the texmf-project folder;
and if you put the ttf files under
texmf-project/fonts
then context should be able to read them.

--
luigi
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 02.12.2012 um 11:24 schrieb luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>:

> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I can assure you, this fonts/ directory was not in the list produced by the
>> mtxrun command on my system.
> yes, but you should see the texmf-project folder;
> and if you put the ttf files under
> texmf-project/fonts
> then context should be able to read them.

New files in the tex tree aren’t found unless you update the database with "mtxrun --generate".

Wolfgang
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

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Hi Luigi,

Perhaps that is what *should* have happened.

It did not happen.

Context did not read the fonts when they were in the texmf-project/fonts
folder,
It did read them when I moved them as described.




On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:24 AM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I can assure you, this fonts/ directory was not in the list produced by
> the
> > mtxrun command on my system.
> yes, but you should see the texmf-project folder;
> and if you put the ttf files under
> texmf-project/fonts
> then context should be able to read them.
>
> --
> luigi
>
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[luigi scarso]

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Luigi,
>
> Perhaps that is what *should* have happened.
>
> It did not happen.
>
> Context did not read the fonts when they were in the texmf-project/fonts
> folder,
> It did read them when I moved them as described.
ok.
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/30/2012 12:40 PM, Steve White wrote:

> I see vertical lines in your attached PDF... is this a new complaint?

that's just the visual debugger in action

> I thought the problem was that sometimes kerning isn't activated.

indeed (well, it is activated by default but also script/language driven)

Hans


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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Khaled Hosny]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:58:25AM +0100, Steve White wrote:
> There was a suggestion that Latin kerns should be activated by
> {script,lang}={dflt,dflt}.  Let me ask, should Devanagari kerns also be
> activated by {dflt, dflt}?  If not, why?

My own policy is, unless a feature must be restricted to a specific
script/language (e.g. a locale-specific feature), all features should be
assigned to *all* scripts in the font, including DFLT/dflt, because
there is technical reason for doing otherwise and it would help
applications not doing automatic script/language itemisation (both
OpenType-enabled TeX engines, for example).

Regards,
 Khaled
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/30/2012 3:13 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:58:25AM +0100, Steve White wrote:
>> There was a suggestion that Latin kerns should be activated by
>> {script,lang}={dflt,dflt}.  Let me ask, should Devanagari kerns also be
>> activated by {dflt, dflt}?  If not, why?
>
> My own policy is, unless a feature must be restricted to a specific
> script/language (e.g. a locale-specific feature), all features should be
> assigned to *all* scripts in the font, including DFLT/dflt, because
> there is technical reason for doing otherwise and it would help
> applications not doing automatic script/language itemisation (both
> OpenType-enabled TeX engines, for example).

That makes much sense (unless a font has hundreds of different lookups 
for multiple features which could slow down basic processing).

Hans


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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Hans Hagen]

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On 11/30/2012 10:58 AM, Steve White wrote:

> 2) I understood that ConTeXt only uses the old-style TrueType 'kern'
> table, rather than the OpenType 'kern' GPOS lookup.  If that is the
> case, I would suggest that you consider to change the  logic to first
> use the OpenType lookup, and if it doesn't exist, fall back to the
> TrueType table. Several applications are already complaining that both
> exist; the plan is to drop support for the TrueType table in FreeFont.

I has always supported both but the user does not show the difference.


> 3) In most applications, the script of a run of text is determined from
> the Unicode.  This is the assumption made in FreeFont.  The GNU FreeFont
> policy starts from its essence as a Unicode font, in which no particular
> script is default. (Some generic features that are not specific to any
> script, are in {dflt,dflt}.)
>
> There was a suggestion that Latin kerns should be activated by
> {script,lang}={dflt,dflt}.  Let me ask, should Devanagari kerns also be
> activated by {dflt, dflt}?  If not, why?

because one text can contain multiple scripts

> It appears that there maybe some conflict her with TeX implementaions.
> I don't completely understand this.  Maybe we can find a solution.

If you have context installed and running, you can do this:

\usemodule[fnt-20,art-01]

\starttext

\definefontfeature
   [freeserif-default]
   [default]
   [script=latn]

\setvariables
   [otftracker]
   [font=file:freeserif.ttf,
    size=24pt,
    figure=,
    features=freeserif-default,
    title=Feature Check,
    sample={dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlale}]

\setvariables
   [otftracker]
   [font=file:freeserif.ttf,
    size=24pt,
    figure=,
    features=freeserif-default,
    title=Feature Check,
    sample={lilolutatetitotu}]

\stoptext

This gives insight in the stepwise processing of features (something 
that is handy for relatively complex fonts, for instance those dealign 
with arabic).

> 4) I have written something like Pablo's test using XeTeX and fontspec.
> Kerning works very well with GNU FreeFont.  Find attached.

maybe xetex defaults to latn

> 5) There was also a report that OpenType kerning doesn't work in some
> E-Book readers (I know this isn't the forum for that, but ...) .  My
> iriver Story kerns very nicely text in FreeSerif.  Can I get an example
> of an E-reader for which kerning fails?  (I really don't doubt that they
> exist!)

Natively I suppose? If a pdf file is viewed on an ebook reader it's not 
the ereader's issue.

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[-- Attachment #3: freefont.tex --]
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\usemodule[fnt-20,art-01]

\starttext

\definefontfeature
  [freeserif-default]
  [default]
  [script=latn]

\setvariables
  [otftracker]
  [font=file:freeserif.ttf,
   size=24pt,
   figure=,
   features=freeserif-default,
   title=Feature Check,
   sample={dadedidodufafefifofufrflftlale}]

\setvariables
  [otftracker]
  [font=file:freeserif.ttf,
   size=24pt,
   figure=,
   features=freeserif-default,
   title=Feature Check,
   sample={lilolutatetitotu}]

\stoptext

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Bill Meahan]

On 11/30/2012 11:05 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 11/30/2012 10:58 AM, Steve White wrote:
>
>> 5) There was also a report that OpenType kerning doesn't work in some
>> E-Book readers (I know this isn't the forum for that, but ...) .  My
>> iriver Story kerns very nicely text in FreeSerif.  Can I get an example
>> of an E-reader for which kerning fails?  (I really don't doubt that they
>> exist!)
>
> Natively I suppose? If a pdf file is viewed on an ebook reader it's 
> not the ereader's issue.
>
> Hans

PDF preserves typography IF the fonts are on the machine or embedded in 
the document. That includes kerning.

EPUB and Kindle are based on XHTML and pay no attention to any 
typography or kerning set by the creator. The *user* chooses the 
typeface and line-spacing while the text width is either the width of 
the screen or the width of the window if run on PC,Mac &al. Any kerning 
is strictly a function of the E-reader and the particular typeface 
("font") chosen by the user.

The EPUB3 spec alleviates this somewhat as it allows font embedding.


--
Bill Meahan
Westland, Michigan USA

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

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Hi Hans, Bill,

Yes, I'm personally aware of how PDF works.

This came from Pablo, who has since told me he was *not* referring to PDF
files, but EPUB books.  So he is referring to the native font renderer.

That's all I know about it, except that kerning works on my own reader.

Anyway, this really isn't a question for this forum.


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Bill Meahan <subscribed_lists@meahan.net>wrote:

> On 11/30/2012 11:05 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>> On 11/30/2012 10:58 AM, Steve White wrote:
>>
>>  5) There was also a report that OpenType kerning doesn't work in some
>>> E-Book readers (I know this isn't the forum for that, but ...) .  My
>>> iriver Story kerns very nicely text in FreeSerif.  Can I get an example
>>> of an E-reader for which kerning fails?  (I really don't doubt that they
>>> exist!)
>>>
>>
>> Natively I suppose? If a pdf file is viewed on an ebook reader it's not
>> the ereader's issue.
>>
>> Hans
>>
>
> PDF preserves typography IF the fonts are on the machine or embedded in
> the document. That includes kerning.
>
> EPUB and Kindle are based on XHTML and pay no attention to any typography
> or kerning set by the creator. The *user* chooses the typeface and
> line-spacing while the text width is either the width of the screen or the
> width of the window if run on PC,Mac &al. Any kerning is strictly a
> function of the E-reader and the particular typeface ("font") chosen by the
> user.
>
> The EPUB3 spec alleviates this somewhat as it allows font embedding.
>
>
> --
> Bill Meahan
> Westland, Michigan USA
>
>
> ______________________________**______________________________**
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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Bill Meahan]

On 11/30/2012 01:08 PM, Steve White wrote:
> Hi Hans, Bill,
>
>
>
> That's all I know about it, except that kerning works on my own reader.

That's entirely up to the reader. It's nice when the reader does as 
it's  not part of the EPUB2 specification which is what most current 
systems use. EPUB3 is very new and hasn't been widely implemented yet.
>
> Anyway, this really isn't a question for this forum.
>

Actually, it is. ConTeXt is capable of generating EPUB2 as well as PDF 
(no conversion program required) so behavior of the entire system is 
germane.


Cheers!

-- 
Bill Meahan
Westland, Michigan USA

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

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Hi


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Bill Meahan <subscribed_lists@meahan.net>wrote:

> On 11/30/2012 01:08 PM, Steve White wrote:
>
>> Hi Hans, Bill,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That's all I know about it, except that kerning works on my own reader.
>>
>
> That's entirely up to the reader. It's nice when the reader does as it's
>  not part of the EPUB2 specification which is what most current systems
> use. EPUB3 is very new and hasn't been widely implemented yet.
>
>
>> Anyway, this really isn't a question for this forum.
>>
>>
> Actually, it is. ConTeXt is capable of generating EPUB2 as well as PDF (no
> conversion program required) so behavior of the entire system is germane
>
> Aha.  That throws some light on some things Pablo was saying...
I did not know this.  I'm interested and want to experiment.
I have always made E-Books by hand (well, with vi, and other command-line
tools).

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Re: 'kern': TrueType table and GPOS lookup feature

[Steve White]

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Hi, Hans,

Sorry about the accidental post

I'm struggling with gmail's new input interface...very hard not to top-post.


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Steve White <stevan.white@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Hans,
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> On 11/30/2012 10:58 AM, Steve White wrote:
>>
>>
>>  3) In most applications, the script of a run of text is determined from
>>> the Unicode.  This is the assumption made in FreeFont.  The GNU FreeFont
>>> policy starts from its essence as a Unicode font, in which no particular
>>> script is default. (Some generic features that are not specific to any
>>> script, are in {dflt,dflt}.)
>>>
>>> There was a suggestion that Latin kerns should be activated by
>>> {script,lang}={dflt,dflt}.  Let me ask, should Devanagari kerns also be
>>> activated by {dflt, dflt}?  If not, why?
>>>
>>
>> because one text can contain multiple scripts
>>
>>
>>
>> This is interesting.

There are different notions of text here, depending on point of view.

Certainly a sentence could contain a mixture of scripts.

When I said "run of text" I meant it from the point of view of how font
featues are applied to text.  Usually it is a small chunk of text, with
chunks separated by white space or other delimiters.

In web browsers, etc, if a run of text is, say, from the Armenian Unicode
range, the script is judged to be Armenian for the purposes of matching
OpenType lookups.
(The information of what *language* is meant by the text must be supplied
otherwise, in this case, in a 'lang' attribute).

Now, you could imgaine applying an OpenType lookup to, say, a Malayalam
letter immediately followed by an Arabic letter, but this is .. I think...
really pointless.

Even in text containing very mixed scripts, at least the words from the
different scripts are separated by white space (or other punctuation etc).

So the mechanism of determining the "script" of a "run of text" does
typically make good sense.

That all said:

It's not clear to me how this is implemented in ConTeXt.  I'll play with it
once I have some examples working.  My guess is, the author has to
explicitly indicate the script each run of text (by specifying the
attributes of the font to apply to the run).

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