Opening quotes problem with context.

Opening quotes problem with context.

[john Culleton]

Did a fresh install of context etc. from the context site. I used this
test file:
-------------------------------
\starttext
``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
\stoptext
%\bye
-----------------------------------------
The resulting pdf shows two left tick marks for opening quotes but the
closing quotes are proper curly quotes.

If I modify the file as follows:
-------------------------------
%\starttext
``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
%\stoptext
\bye
---------------------------
and use luatex or pdftex from texlive the quotes are OK. 

I got similar results from context in texlive 2012 and texlive 2013.

What is the proper code for opening quotes in context?

I use slackware linux 14, the 64 bit version. 


-- 
John Culleton
Wexford Press
Free list of books for self-publishers:
http://wexfordpress.net/shortlist.html
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 22.07.2013 um 17:40 schrieb john Culleton <John@wexfordpress.com>:

> Did a fresh install of context etc. from the context site. I used this
> test file:
> -------------------------------
> \starttext
> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
> \stoptext
> %\bye
> -----------------------------------------
> The resulting pdf shows two left tick marks for opening quotes but the
> closing quotes are proper curly quotes.
> 
> If I modify the file as follows:
> -------------------------------
> %\starttext
> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
> %\stoptext
> \bye
> ---------------------------
> and use luatex or pdftex from texlive the quotes are OK. 
> 
> I got similar results from context in texlive 2012 and texlive 2013.
> 
> What is the proper code for opening quotes in context?

Use “quoted word” or \quotation{quoted word}.

Wolfgang
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[Sietse Brouwer]

John Culleton wrote:

>> I use slackware linux 14, the 64 bit version.
>> What is the proper code for opening quotes in context?

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Use “quoted word” or \quotation{quoted word}.

Since you're using Linux: if you set your keyboard layout to `English
(international AltGr dead keys)`, your keyboard will behave like an
ordinary US keyboard, but you can use AltGr (right Alt) to get special
characters. Specifically, you can get

‘’ with AltGr + 9 and AltGr + 0
“” with AltGr + { and AltGr + }
«» with AltGr + [ and AltGr + ]

That might make the quotations easier to type, if you decide to input
them “literally” instead of \quotation{structurally}. The AltGr dead
keys keyboard is very nice in general, not least because it is
indistinguishable from a normal US keyboard under normal usage.

Cheers,
Sietse
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[David Rogers]

john Culleton <John@wexfordpress.com> writes:

> Did a fresh install of context etc. from the context site. I used this
> test file:
> -------------------------------
> \starttext
> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
> \stoptext
> %\bye
> -----------------------------------------
> The resulting pdf shows two left tick marks for opening quotes but the
> closing quotes are proper curly quotes.
>
> If I modify the file as follows:
> -------------------------------
> %\starttext
> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
> %\stoptext
> \bye
> ---------------------------
> and use luatex or pdftex from texlive the quotes are OK. 
>
> I got similar results from context in texlive 2012 and texlive 2013.
>
> What is the proper code for opening quotes in context?


The "truly proper" code is \quotation{Hello world.} - that style is
guaranteed to work. (And, for instance, if you change context's language
to French, then \quotation{Bonjour monde.} will automatically give you
the correct style of French quotation marks without having to look up
how to type them; likewise for other languages.)

I think the problem of the two left tick marks may come from web browser
copy-and-paste. Special marks, especially the quotation marks,
apostrophes, and tick marks, are often mangled when converting to and
from HTML. When copying any program's code from a web page, watch out
for those marks, they've probably been mis-transcribed by the too-clever
HTML rendering.

-- 
David R
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 24.07.2013 um 16:58 schrieb David Rogers <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com>:

> john Culleton <John@wexfordpress.com> writes:
> 
>> Did a fresh install of context etc. from the context site. I used this
>> test file:
>> -------------------------------
>> \starttext
>> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
>> \stoptext
>> %\bye
>> -----------------------------------------
>> The resulting pdf shows two left tick marks for opening quotes but the
>> closing quotes are proper curly quotes.
>> 
>> If I modify the file as follows:
>> -------------------------------
>> %\starttext
>> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
>> %\stoptext
>> \bye
>> ---------------------------
>> and use luatex or pdftex from texlive the quotes are OK. 
>> 
>> I got similar results from context in texlive 2012 and texlive 2013.
>> 
>> What is the proper code for opening quotes in context?
> 
> 
> The "truly proper" code is \quotation{Hello world.} - that style is
> guaranteed to work. (And, for instance, if you change context's language
> to French, then \quotation{Bonjour monde.} will automatically give you
> the correct style of French quotation marks without having to look up
> how to type them; likewise for other languages.)

There is nothing wrong by using „ “ ” « » etc. for quotations. When you
use \quotation etc. you don’t have to bother about the correct marks
for your language (you can also change them) but the code is easier to
read when you use the real signs.

> I think the problem of the two left tick marks may come from web browser
> copy-and-paste. Special marks, especially the quotation marks,
> apostrophes, and tick marks, are often mangled when converting to and
> from HTML. When copying any program's code from a web page, watch out
> for those marks, they've probably been mis-transcribed by the too-clever
> HTML rendering.

What John wrote is valid in plain TeX where fonts replaced `` and ''
with the proper characters in MkIV this feature was dropped because
you can use \quotation or write the characters in your text.

Wolfgang
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[john Culleton]

On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:13:18 +0200
Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Am 24.07.2013 um 16:58 schrieb David Rogers
> <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com>:
> 
> > john Culleton <John@wexfordpress.com> writes:
> > 
> >> Did a fresh install of context etc. from the context site. I used
> >> this test file:
> >> -------------------------------
> >> \starttext
> >> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
> >> \stoptext
> >> %\bye
> >> -----------------------------------------
> >> The resulting pdf shows two left tick marks for opening quotes but
> >> the closing quotes are proper curly quotes.
> >> 
> >> If I modify the file as follows:
> >> -------------------------------
> >> %\starttext
> >> ``Hello world.'' And ``Goodbye world.''
> >> %\stoptext
> >> \bye
> >> ---------------------------
> >> and use luatex or pdftex from texlive the quotes are OK. 
> >> 
> >> I got similar results from context in texlive 2012 and texlive
> >> 2013.
> >> 
> >> What is the proper code for opening quotes in context?
> > 
> > 
> > The "truly proper" code is \quotation{Hello world.} - that style is
> > guaranteed to work. (And, for instance, if you change context's
> > language to French, then \quotation{Bonjour monde.} will
> > automatically give you the correct style of French quotation marks
> > without having to look up how to type them; likewise for other
> > languages.)
> 
> There is nothing wrong by using „ “ ” « » etc. for quotations. When
> you use \quotation etc. you don’t have to bother about the correct
> marks for your language (you can also change them) but the code is
> easier to read when you use the real signs.
> 
> > I think the problem of the two left tick marks may come from web
> > browser copy-and-paste. Special marks, especially the quotation
> > marks, apostrophes, and tick marks, are often mangled when
> > converting to and from HTML. When copying any program's code from a
> > web page, watch out for those marks, they've probably been
> > mis-transcribed by the too-clever HTML rendering.
> 
> What John wrote is valid in plain TeX where fonts replaced `` and ''
> with the proper characters in MkIV this feature was dropped because
> you can use \quotation or write the characters in your text.
> 
> Wolfgang
> _
Understood. But when dealing with fiction with many quotations this is
a lot of extra keying with no corresponding benefit. And writing the
actual characters in one's text is not all that easy either. The
original plain TeX method is not dependent on a particular keyboard or
the use of dead keys etc.

I think I will encapsulate the "\quotation" method in a macro like
\def\qq{\\quotation\{}
or similar. Two keystrokes are better than  nine.

I note that the plain TeX version of closing quotes, '' still works.
Would it be that hard to make the opening quotes of `` still work? 

Not every change is an improvement, IMO.

John Culleton 
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 27.07.2013 um 16:29 schrieb john Culleton <John@wexfordpress.com>:

> I think I will encapsulate the "\quotation" method in a macro like
> \def\qq{\\quotation\{}
> or similar. Two keystrokes are better than  nine.

Use \delimitedtext[qq][quotation] to create a new quote command.

> I note that the plain TeX version of closing quotes, '' still works.
> Would it be that hard to make the opening quotes of `` still work? 

You’re wrong the output of '' looks correct but it isn’t as you can see in
the following example. When you write ' context replaces it with ’ which
is together with -- and --- one of the remaining fake ligatures which
can be enabled with the “tlig=yes” in \definefontfeature.


\starttext

\type{''} = ''

\type{”} = ”

\stoptext

> Not every change is an improvement, IMO.


One could misuse the translate module for this but I really suggest to move
forward and use direct input of “ and ” or \quotation{…}.

\usemodule[translate]

\translateinput[``][“]
\translateinput[''][”]

\enableinputtranslation

\starttext

``text''

\stoptext

Wolfgang
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:29 PM, john Culleton wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:13:18 +0200 Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>
> I think I will encapsulate the "\quotation" method in a macro like
> \def\qq{\\quotation\{}
> or similar. Two keystrokes are better than  nine.
>
> I note that the plain TeX version of closing quotes, '' still works.

It doesn't. You get two apostrophes (which usually happen to look like
a double quotation mark).

> Would it be that hard to make the opening quotes of `` still work?

No. See tlig and trep in tex/context/base/font-otc.lua.

Actually, I see no reason for not adding another font feature (maybe
called "+knuth", "+legacy" or "+cmr") which would be disabled by
default and could be activated by user.

Mojca
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> I note that the plain TeX version of closing quotes, '' still works.
>
> It doesn't. You get two apostrophes (which usually happen to look like
> a double quotation mark).

I need to add that converting character 27 (') into apostrophe was
considered a crucial functionality, so it was kept. Nobody can imagine
getting the proper apostrophe on keyboard and its use is very common.

On the other hand many languages use different quotation marks and
using ``these'' is completely "americanocentric". On top,
auto-replacement lead to inability to typeset the actual backtick (`)
when it's needed. So yes, getting rid of `` replaced by quotation by
default *was* an improvement.

If you are worried about the number of strokes you can always
configure your keyboard to give the quotation marks by pressing
alt-gr+something (an equivalent effort of typing an uppercase letter).
Or you can define
    \def\q#1{\quotation{#1}}
The big advantage of \quotation{...} is that it automatically gives
you the right quotation marks for the active language. And for me it's
also convenient that I can easily switch which quotation marks are
used (both guilemets and "double comma-style" are allowed in our
grammar, and I sometimes change my mind about which ones should be
used in the middle of the project). Or I could change the quoted text
to become italic.

Mojca

PS: I'm sometimes mad at what TeX did. Every (La)TeX user read a
(La)TeX tutorial at some point and nowadays probably 80% users in my
country still use "\v{c}" (not being aware that they could type the
Unicode characters the same way as they do in Word), either the wrong
font encoding (OT1; without proper hyphenation and with weirdly
composed glyphs) or the bitmap fonts, and the grammatically incorrect
version of ``quotes''. This is what they learnt from manuals. In
ConTeXt UTF-8 just works and \quotation{...} is a lot better than
those weird ``artefacts''.
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Re: Opening quotes problem with context.

[Marco Patzer]

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On 2013–07–27 john Culleton wrote:

> I think I will encapsulate the "\quotation" method in a macro like
> \def\qq{\\quotation\{}
> or similar. Two keystrokes are better than  nine.

I'd suggest to use the auto complete feature of your editor. When
reading the source after six months “\qq” makes you wonder what it
does, if you use “\quotation” is obvious.

> I note that the plain TeX version of closing quotes, '' still works.
> Would it be that hard to make the opening quotes of `` still work? 
> 
> Not every change is an improvement, IMO.

I always tried to avoid those pesky TeX quotes. From looking at the
screen it's hard to tell which characters you're actually dealing
with. And when you figured that it's two grave accents, it's still a
challenge to tell which quote it'll actually print in the PDF.

What about having your editor automatically replace `` by “ or
\quotation{ and likewise '' by ” or }?

Marco

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