[OT] rasperry 4

[OT] rasperry 4

[luigi scarso]

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just seen
https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/

I would like to know your impressions

-- 
luigi

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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[Alan Braslau]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:30:48 +0200
luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:

> just seen
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> 
> I would like to know your impressions
> 

No SDIO stack (yet) on FreeBSD, so no WIFI support on the Raspberry Pi. 
(so one is somewhat *stuck* with GNU/linux). 

--
Alan
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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/24/2019 2:30 PM, luigi scarso wrote:
> just seen
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> 
> I would like to know your impressions
"Raspberry Pi 4 Desktop Kit will remain in production until at least 
January 2026"

so that sounds nice ... i noticed that in electronics magazined they 
start using the pi in docmotica apps so long term is good then.

Maybe usb3 also brings fast disk to the pi (was always a problem) given 
that it can power an external ssd,

so, it sounds ok

Hans

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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/24/2019 6:41 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:30:48 +0200
> luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> just seen
>> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
>>
>> I would like to know your impressions
>>
> 
> No SDIO stack (yet) on FreeBSD, so no WIFI support on the Raspberry Pi.
> (so one is somewhat *stuck* with GNU/linux).
There's a windows for the pi -)

Hans


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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[Alan Braslau]

On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 19:58:54 +0200
Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> On 6/24/2019 6:41 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
> > On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:30:48 +0200
> > luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> >   
> >> just seen
> >> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> >>
> >> I would like to know your impressions
> >>  
> > 
> > No SDIO stack (yet) on FreeBSD, so no WIFI support on the Raspberry Pi.
> > (so one is somewhat *stuck* with GNU/linux).  
> There's a windows for the pi -)

Right, like you say, if you want linux
you might as well run it under Windows ;-)

--
Alan
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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[Henri Menke]

On 25/06/19 12:30 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
> just seen
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> 
> I would like to know your impressions

Does it still need proprietary binary blobs in the kernel?  Probably
yes, so it is as useless as all the models before because it can only
run their custom Raspbian distro.

> 
> 
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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[luigi scarso]

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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 12:15 AM Henri Menke <henrimenke@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 25/06/19 12:30 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
> > just seen
> > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> >
> > I would like to know your impressions
>
> Does it still need proprietary binary blobs in the kernel?


dunno


>
> so it is as useless as all the models before because it can only
> run their custom Raspbian distro.
>


https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RaspberryPi
18.04.2 both 32bit and 64bit work

-- 
luigi

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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[luigi scarso]

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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 9:15 AM luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RaspberryPi
> 18.04.2 both 32bit and 64bit work
>
>
I mean in raspberry 3B & 3B+,
pi4 is slightly different :
https://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-92641/l/raspberry-pi-4-model-b-frequently-asked-questions-faq
but I expect that ubuntu will run ok
-- 
luigi

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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[Henri Menke]

On 25/06/2019, 09:15:43, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 12:15 AM Henri Menke <henrimenke@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 25/06/19 12:30 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
> > > just seen
> > > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> > >
> > > I would like to know your impressions
> >
> > Does it still need proprietary binary blobs in the kernel?
> 
> 
> dunno
> 

From the page you linked:

    Raspberry Pi packages
    [...]
    - linux-firmware-raspi2 - GPU firmware bootloader files and pi 3 wifi firmware file
    - linux-raspi2 (linux-image-raspi2) - Linux kernel with patches from https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux
    - u-boot-rpi - Provides u-boot.bin
    - flash-kernel - Automatically copies the latest kernel, dtb file and u-boot script to the pi's fat formatted GPU firmware partition 

So yes, there is a whole bunch of non-free stuff required to even boot
the system.

> 
> >
> > so it is as useless as all the models before because it can only
> > run their custom Raspbian distro.
> >
> 
> 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RaspberryPi
> 18.04.2 both 32bit and 64bit work
> 
> -- 
> luigi

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[OT] rasperry 4

[Rudolf Bahr]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:15:29AM +1200, Henri Menke wrote:
> On 25/06/19 12:30 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
> > just seen
> > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> > 
> > I would like to know your impressions
> 
> Does it still need proprietary binary blobs in the kernel?  Probably
> yes, so it is as useless as all the models before because it can only
> run their custom Raspbian distro.



To this I asked my linux group in Freiburg and got following answer
in German from Tomas (tuxteam.de):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Die Antwort darauf ist komplizierter, als es einem lieb sein kann :-)

"Blob" hat da nämlich unterschiedliche Bedeutungen (vermutlich lässt
sich die Liste verlängern):

 (1) zum einen, nicht-freie Treiber, die direkt im Adressraum des Linux
   kernels ausgeführt werden (strenggenommen verletzen sie die GPL,
   aber die Linux-community ist da... "tolerant" [1]

 (2) dann ist die eng verwandte "Cousine", die im Kernel zwar einen
   freien "Treiber" hat, der aber nur eine Hülle ist, die die eigentliche
   Arbeit an ein Programm in user space delegiert, das proprietär ist

 (3) schliesslich ist es so, dass der Broadcom BCM28xx (oder BCM27xx) [2]
   nicht "nur eine ARM CPU" ist, sondern ganz viele verschiedene
   Subsysteme umfasst (im Jargon ist das ein SoC, ein "System on a Chip").
   Jedes dieser Subsysteme hat vielleicht einen, vielleicht mehrere
   Prozessoren, am prominentesten beim Raspi ist wohl der Grafik-Coprozessor
   (VideoCore IV), der auch zum Booten des ganzen Systems zuständig ist.
   Auch die wollen Code, der auch als Blobs in Erscheinung treten kann,
   die der Linux-Kernel einfach nur durchreicht.

Also: ohne (3) gibt es beim Raspi nicht mal Booten ;-)

Meines Wissens ist Raspi in (1) und (2) weitgehend "sauber" (Korrekturen
erwünscht!), (3) ist allerdings weitaus schwieriger (es gibt m.W. aber
auch Leute, die an dessen reverse engineering dran sind).

Broadcom selbst scheint, nach anfänglichem Zögern, diesen Anstrengungen
freundlich gegenüberzustehen.

Dies alles mit etwas Fehlermarge, da ich schon lange nicht mehr
reingeschaut habe. Ergänzungen also willkommen (dann lerne ich auch
was bei ;-)

lg

[1] Ein Thema für sich, an dem, wie mensch sich das auch denken
   kann, so einige Kontroversen entstehen.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anybody is interested I would try to translate it.

Best wishes,

Rudolf
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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[luigi scarso]

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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 3:31 PM Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:15:29AM +1200, Henri Menke wrote:
> > On 25/06/19 12:30 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
> > > just seen
> > > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> > >
> > > I would like to know your impressions
> >
> > Does it still need proprietary binary blobs in the kernel?  Probably
> > yes, so it is as useless as all the models before because it can only
> > run their custom Raspbian distro.
>
>
>
> To this I asked my linux group in Freiburg and got following answer
> in German from Tomas (tuxteam.de):
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Die Antwort darauf ist komplizierter, als es einem lieb sein kann :-)
>
> "Blob" hat da nämlich unterschiedliche Bedeutungen (vermutlich lässt
> sich die Liste verlängern):
>
>  (1) zum einen, nicht-freie Treiber, die direkt im Adressraum des Linux
>    kernels ausgeführt werden (strenggenommen verletzen sie die GPL,
>    aber die Linux-community ist da... "tolerant" [1]
>
>  (2) dann ist die eng verwandte "Cousine", die im Kernel zwar einen
>    freien "Treiber" hat, der aber nur eine Hülle ist, die die eigentliche
>    Arbeit an ein Programm in user space delegiert, das proprietär ist
>
>  (3) schliesslich ist es so, dass der Broadcom BCM28xx (oder BCM27xx) [2]
>    nicht "nur eine ARM CPU" ist, sondern ganz viele verschiedene
>    Subsysteme umfasst (im Jargon ist das ein SoC, ein "System on a Chip").
>    Jedes dieser Subsysteme hat vielleicht einen, vielleicht mehrere
>    Prozessoren, am prominentesten beim Raspi ist wohl der
> Grafik-Coprozessor
>    (VideoCore IV), der auch zum Booten des ganzen Systems zuständig ist.
>    Auch die wollen Code, der auch als Blobs in Erscheinung treten kann,
>    die der Linux-Kernel einfach nur durchreicht.
>
> Also: ohne (3) gibt es beim Raspi nicht mal Booten ;-)
>
> Meines Wissens ist Raspi in (1) und (2) weitgehend "sauber" (Korrekturen
> erwünscht!), (3) ist allerdings weitaus schwieriger (es gibt m.W. aber
> auch Leute, die an dessen reverse engineering dran sind).
>
> Broadcom selbst scheint, nach anfänglichem Zögern, diesen Anstrengungen
> freundlich gegenüberzustehen.
>
> Dies alles mit etwas Fehlermarge, da ich schon lange nicht mehr
> reingeschaut habe. Ergänzungen also willkommen (dann lerne ich auch
> was bei ;-)
>
> lg
>
> [1] Ein Thema für sich, an dem, wie mensch sich das auch denken
>    kann, so einige Kontroversen entstehen.
>
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If anybody is interested I would try to translate it.
>
>


sure

-- 
luigi

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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[Rudolf Bahr]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 03:33:00PM +0200, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 3:31 PM Rudolf Bahr <quasi@quasi.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 10:15:29AM +1200, Henri Menke wrote:
> > > On 25/06/19 12:30 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
> > > > just seen
> > > > https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
> > > >
> > > > I would like to know your impressions
> > >
> > > Does it still need proprietary binary blobs in the kernel?  Probably
> > > yes, so it is as useless as all the models before because it can only
> > > run their custom Raspbian distro.
> >
> >
> >
> > To this I asked my linux group in Freiburg and got following answer
> > in German from Tomas (tuxteam.de):
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Die Antwort darauf ist komplizierter, als es einem lieb sein kann :-)
> >
> > "Blob" hat da nämlich unterschiedliche Bedeutungen (vermutlich lässt
> > sich die Liste verlängern):
> >
> >  (1) zum einen, nicht-freie Treiber, die direkt im Adressraum des Linux
> >    kernels ausgeführt werden (strenggenommen verletzen sie die GPL,
> >    aber die Linux-community ist da... "tolerant" [1]
> >
> >  (2) dann ist die eng verwandte "Cousine", die im Kernel zwar einen
> >    freien "Treiber" hat, der aber nur eine Hülle ist, die die eigentliche
> >    Arbeit an ein Programm in user space delegiert, das proprietär ist
> >
> >  (3) schliesslich ist es so, dass der Broadcom BCM28xx (oder BCM27xx) [2]
> >    nicht "nur eine ARM CPU" ist, sondern ganz viele verschiedene
> >    Subsysteme umfasst (im Jargon ist das ein SoC, ein "System on a Chip").
> >    Jedes dieser Subsysteme hat vielleicht einen, vielleicht mehrere
> >    Prozessoren, am prominentesten beim Raspi ist wohl der
> > Grafik-Coprozessor
> >    (VideoCore IV), der auch zum Booten des ganzen Systems zuständig ist.
> >    Auch die wollen Code, der auch als Blobs in Erscheinung treten kann,
> >    die der Linux-Kernel einfach nur durchreicht.
> >
> > Also: ohne (3) gibt es beim Raspi nicht mal Booten ;-)
> >
> > Meines Wissens ist Raspi in (1) und (2) weitgehend "sauber" (Korrekturen
> > erwünscht!), (3) ist allerdings weitaus schwieriger (es gibt m.W. aber
> > auch Leute, die an dessen reverse engineering dran sind).
> >
> > Broadcom selbst scheint, nach anfänglichem Zögern, diesen Anstrengungen
> > freundlich gegenüberzustehen.
> >
> > Dies alles mit etwas Fehlermarge, da ich schon lange nicht mehr
> > reingeschaut habe. Ergänzungen also willkommen (dann lerne ich auch
> > was bei ;-)
> >
> > lg
> >
> > [1] Ein Thema für sich, an dem, wie mensch sich das auch denken
> >    kann, so einige Kontroversen entstehen.
> >
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > If anybody is interested I would try to translate it.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> sure
> 
> -- 
> luigi


Here, Luigi, my translation:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The answer is more complicated as one could want :-)

"Blob" has quite different meanings (the list could be 
prolongated probably):

   (1) first, non-free drivers which are executed in the 
     address-room of linux kernel (strictly spoken they 
     offend against GPL, but the Linux-community with
     respect to this is ... "tolerant") [1]

   (2) then, there is a nearly related "cousin" who admittedly
     has a free "driver" but this one is only a cover which
     delegates the real work to a propriatary program in user 
     space

   (3) eventually it is so that Broadcom BCM28xx (or BCM27xx) [2]
     isn't "only an ARM CPU" but contains a bunch of many
     different subsystems (in jargon a SoC, a "system on a Chip").
     Everyone of these subsystems has possibly one, possibly 
     several processors. Presumably the most prominent with the
     Raspi is the grafic-coprocessor (Videocore IV) which is
     responsible for booting the whole system too. Also these
     have code which might become evident as blobs which the
     linux kernel simply hands through.

Consequently: without (3) Raspi wount boot ;-)

As far as I know (Tomas, tuxteam.de) with concern to (1) and (2)
Raspi to a large extend is "clean" (corrections are welcome!),
though (3) is much more difficult (there are, as I think, people
who are working on reverse engineering of it).
  
Broadcom, after hesitating initially, seems to be friendly against
those efforts.
  
This all is with a bit of error margin, because I didn't look into
it for a rather long time. Completions are welcome (then I would
learn something too ;-)
  
lg (liebe Grüße)
  
[1] A topic for itself with possibilities to controversies as one
    can imagine.
  
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Be lenient towards my English!

Rudolf
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Re: [OT] rasperry 4

[luigi scarso]

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On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 2:30 PM luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:

> just seen
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/
>
> I would like to know your impressions
>
> --
> luigi
>

more benchmarks
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/raspberry-pi-4-b,6193.html
-- 
luigi

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