RAL colours

RAL colours

[Pavneet Arora]

Of and on, I have struggled to find a colour space that is expressive 
enough for printing, but convenient to access through ConTeXt for 
day-to-day usage.  I find with X11 that the emphasis on screen skews the 
colours to be brighter than what is desired, especially if one is 
dealing with coloured stock---say beige kraft---as I am doing with my 
current bit of typesetting.

In this process I have come across the RAL colour space:

http://www.ral-farben.de/content/application-help/all-ral-colours-names/overview-ral-classic-colours.html

whose values can be conveniently (sort of) accessed at:

http://rgb.to/ral/page/1

For my immediate needs, I have simply created a set of:

\definecolor[<colourName>][h=HHHHHH]

However, I am wondering if it might make sense to have a 
colo-imp-ral.mkiv?  So my questions would be:

1.  Is the RAL colour space a decent one for printing purposes?  What 
    would be disadvantages, if not?

2.  Does colo-imp-ral.mkiv exist already?

3.  If not, would others find it useful to have a colo-imp-ral.mkiv?  If 
    it doesn't then I would be happy to prepare one and submit it.

Many thanks.

-- 
----
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Waroc Informatik        t: 416.937.9276
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Re: RAL colours

[Hans Hagen]

On 4/4/2015 1:31 PM, Pavneet Arora wrote:
> Of and on, I have struggled to find a colour space that is expressive
> enough for printing, but convenient to access through ConTeXt for
> day-to-day usage.  I find with X11 that the emphasis on screen skews the
> colours to be brighter than what is desired, especially if one is
> dealing with coloured stock---say beige kraft---as I am doing with my
> current bit of typesetting.
>
> In this process I have come across the RAL colour space:
>
> http://www.ral-farben.de/content/application-help/all-ral-colours-names/overview-ral-classic-colours.html
>
> whose values can be conveniently (sort of) accessed at:
>
> http://rgb.to/ral/page/1
>
> For my immediate needs, I have simply created a set of:
>
> \definecolor[<colourName>][h=HHHHHH]
>
> However, I am wondering if it might make sense to have a
> colo-imp-ral.mkiv?  So my questions would be:
>
> 1.  Is the RAL colour space a decent one for printing purposes?  What
>      would be disadvantages, if not?
>
> 2.  Does colo-imp-ral.mkiv exist already?

it's not in the distribution so it doesn't exist

> 3.  If not, would others find it useful to have a colo-imp-ral.mkiv?  If
>      it doesn't then I would be happy to prepare one and submit it.

just go ahead

Hans

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Re: RAL colours

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 13:42:55 +0200
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 4/4/2015 1:31 PM, Pavneet Arora wrote:
> > Of and on, I have struggled to find a colour space that is
> > expressive enough for printing, but convenient to access through
> > ConTeXt for day-to-day usage.  I find with X11 that the emphasis on
> > screen skews the colours to be brighter than what is desired,
> > especially if one is dealing with coloured stock---say beige
> > kraft---as I am doing with my current bit of typesetting.
> >
> > In this process I have come across the RAL colour space:
> >
> > http://www.ral-farben.de/content/application-help/all-ral-colours-names/overview-ral-classic-colours.html
> >
> > whose values can be conveniently (sort of) accessed at:
> >
> > http://rgb.to/ral/page/1
> >
> > For my immediate needs, I have simply created a set of:
> >
> > \definecolor[<colourName>][h=HHHHHH]
> >
> > However, I am wondering if it might make sense to have a
> > colo-imp-ral.mkiv?  So my questions would be:
> >
> > 1.  Is the RAL colour space a decent one for printing purposes?
> > What would be disadvantages, if not?
> >
> > 2.  Does colo-imp-ral.mkiv exist already?
> 
> it's not in the distribution so it doesn't exist
> 
> > 3.  If not, would others find it useful to have a
> > colo-imp-ral.mkiv?  If it doesn't then I would be happy to prepare
> > one and submit it.
> 
> just go ahead

I have produced both Pantone as well as Roscolux color palates
from published web resources for my own use as they are of course
copyrighted. One could do the same with a RAL color palatte that is
widely used in the paint industry. Of course, none of these really make
any sense in printing as one needs appropriate tools to produce the
desired result - they will remain an approximation.

Alan


Roscolux: standard color set used in theater and cinema lighting.
(created from www.rosco.com) © Rosco Laboratories 1998-2009
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Re: RAL colours

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2015-04-04 um 17:31 schrieb Pavneet Arora <pavneet_arora@waroc.com>:

> 1.  Is the RAL colour space a decent one for printing purposes?  What 
>    would be disadvantages, if not?

No, it’s not. RAL colors are defined only for surface colors, like lacquer (varnish? paint).

Printing colors work differently, they’re mostly transparent.
A parallel to RAL in printing colors would be Pantone (or HKS in Germany, Toyo in Japan).
But these are copyrighted, so we would be most probably not allowed to ship a library of these.
(If I need some spot color, I look up the CMYK/RGB mix in Photoshop or InDesign.)

> 2.  Does colo-imp-ral.mkiv exist already?

That would make no sense IMO.

Greetlings, Hraban (printing engineer)
---
http://www.fiee.net
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: RAL colours

[Pavneet Arora]

Many thanks Hraban!

This is great insight into the printing world.  Of course, Pantone has a 
dominant position on this continent at least, but as you stated, its 
proprietary nature keeps the palette from being distributed easily.

So the question remains:  if the X11 colourspace is found inadequate, is 
there another one that we might look for inspiration to create decent 
spot colours for document processing?  Even if RAL colours are used for 
varnish, does that mitigate the use of their RGB values for other 
paints?  Note, that I am not seeking exact calibration of colours, say 
for branding across different media; just a more expressive palette for 
print applications.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the Adobe products that you 
mention, and in any case would just want a convenient set of colours 
inside ConTeXt to create documents on the fly.

For this type of work, are there any other "open source" palettes that 
we might look towards?

Warm regards.

On 04Apr15, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Am 2015-04-04 um 17:31 schrieb Pavneet Arora <pavneet_arora@waroc.com>:
> 
> > 1.  Is the RAL colour space a decent one for printing purposes?  What 
> >    would be disadvantages, if not?
> 
> No, it’s not. RAL colors are defined only for surface colors, like lacquer (varnish? paint).
> 
> Printing colors work differently, they’re mostly transparent.
> A parallel to RAL in printing colors would be Pantone (or HKS in Germany, Toyo in Japan).
> But these are copyrighted, so we would be most probably not allowed to ship a library of these.
> (If I need some spot color, I look up the CMYK/RGB mix in Photoshop or InDesign.)
> 
> > 2.  Does colo-imp-ral.mkiv exist already?
> 
> That would make no sense IMO.

--
----
Pavneet Arora           m: 647.406.6843
Waroc Informatik        t: 416.937.9276
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Re: RAL colours

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2015-04-04 um 22:00 schrieb Pavneet Arora <pavneet_arora@waroc.com>:

> This is great insight into the printing world.  Of course, Pantone has a 
> dominant position on this continent at least, but as you stated, its 
> proprietary nature keeps the palette from being distributed easily.

The same is probably true for RAL.
Be aware that RAL is no color system, but just an arbitrary and historically grown collection. In this regard it’s even worse than X11 colors.
There’s also RAL design system, that would be better, but it’s still copyrighted and not suitable for CMYK or RGB devices.

See e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL_colour_standard
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL-Farbe

Conversions of RAL colors (that are defined in CIE L*a*b) are just approximations for one special RGB color space, most probably sRGB, and can’t cover everything, since every color space is rather limited.

Conversions of L*a*b or any RGB colors into CMYK depend on several parameters (rendering intent, GCR/UCR), because CMYK color spaces are generally quite small, and you can hit the same color spot with different mixtures of CMYK inks.


> So the question remains:  if the X11 colourspace is found inadequate, is 
> there another one that we might look for inspiration to create decent 
> spot colours for document processing?  Even if RAL colours are used for 
> varnish, does that mitigate the use of their RGB values for other 
> paints?  Note, that I am not seeking exact calibration of colours, say 
> for branding across different media; just a more expressive palette for 
> print applications.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have access to the Adobe products that you 
> mention, and in any case would just want a convenient set of colours 
> inside ConTeXt to create documents on the fly.
> 
> For this type of work, are there any other "open source" palettes that 
> we might look towards?

Spot colors for printing rely on manufacturers that produce those inks/paints.
The existing palettes are defined by (or in cooperation with) manufacturers.
There exists nothing like open source paint recipes, AFAIK, so it would make no sense to define an open source (i.e. freely licensed) palette/system of spot colors.

Of course it’s possible to define a system of (anyhow) matching colors. But that’s so much a matter of taste and application that I wouldn’t start with such an enterprise.
There are some good online tools that help you finding matching design colors, at least for (s)RGB, e.g. Adobe Kuler or paletton.com.
If you need spot colors for printing, you need a (digital or physical) palette from the manufacturers.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: RAL colours

[luigi scarso]

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On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 6:11 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:

> Am 2015-04-04 um 22:00 schrieb Pavneet Arora <pavneet_arora@waroc.com>:
>
> > This is great insight into the printing world.  Of course, Pantone has a
> > dominant position on this continent at least, but as you stated, its
> > proprietary nature keeps the palette from being distributed easily.
>
> The same is probably true for RAL.
> Be aware that RAL is no color system, but just an arbitrary and
> historically grown collection. In this regard it’s even worse than X11
> colors.
> There’s also RAL design system, that would be better, but it’s still
> copyrighted and not suitable for CMYK or RGB devices.
>
> See e.g.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL_colour_standard
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL-Farbe
>
> Conversions of RAL colors (that are defined in CIE L*a*b) are just
> approximations for one special RGB color space, most probably sRGB, and
> can’t cover everything, since every color space is rather limited.
>
> Conversions of L*a*b or any RGB colors into CMYK depend on several
> parameters (rendering intent, GCR/UCR), because CMYK color spaces are
> generally quite small, and you can hit the same color spot with different
> mixtures of CMYK inks.
>
>
> > So the question remains:  if the X11 colourspace is found inadequate, is
> > there another one that we might look for inspiration to create decent
> > spot colours for document processing?  Even if RAL colours are used for
> > varnish, does that mitigate the use of their RGB values for other
> > paints?  Note, that I am not seeking exact calibration of colours, say
> > for branding across different media; just a more expressive palette for
> > print applications.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have access to the Adobe products that you
> > mention, and in any case would just want a convenient set of colours
> > inside ConTeXt to create documents on the fly.
> >
> > For this type of work, are there any other "open source" palettes that
> > we might look towards?
>
> Spot colors for printing rely on manufacturers that produce those
> inks/paints.
> The existing palettes are defined by (or in cooperation with)
> manufacturers.
> There exists nothing like open source paint recipes, AFAIK, so it would
> make no sense to define an open source (i.e. freely licensed)
> palette/system of spot colors.
>
> Of course it’s possible to define a system of (anyhow) matching colors.
> But that’s so much a matter of taste and application that I wouldn’t start
> with such an enterprise.
> There are some good online tools that help you finding matching design
> colors, at least for (s)RGB, e.g. Adobe Kuler or paletton.com.
> If you need spot colors for printing, you need a (digital or physical)
> palette from the manufacturers.
>
>
> Interesting topic.
I just add for the record
http://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/How_to_legally_obtain_spot_colour_palettes_for_use_in_Scribus_1.3.3.x_and_later_versions
http://www.selapa.net/swatchbooker/

-- 
luigi

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Re: RAL colours

[Pavneet Arora]

Again, thank you for educating me on these principles.  This really is 
great stuff!  Just the type of insight that I need.  I am sure that many 
of us struggle with production issues and it would be good to develop 
design patterns on how to overcome them.

In response to Luigi's follow up post, let me describe what I have done, 
and ask your opinions (and indulgence) as to its usefulness.

Let me preface all this by pointing you to an old video from AT&T 
archives, now to be found on YouTube where Brian Kernighan describes 
some of the distinctions of Unix.  Although the entire video is 
worthwhile even at 27m+ long if you just want to skip to his part, that 
starts at the 4m09s mark.  It is a nostalgic (but still valid) look at 
the elegance of pipes and redirection.

Okay, what I have done is create two 'bash' scripts which rely heavily 
on 'sed' to massage the text data retrieved using 'w3m' to create 
suitable "colo-imp-ral.mkiv" (RAL Classic colours; 223 colours) and 
"colo-imp-pantone.mkiv" (Pantone Coated colours; 1341 colours) files on 
demand using the values found on Carlos Cabo's rgb.to website.

The generated file for the RAL colours includes both the RAL number and 
the *English* name of the colour; one can easily modify the script to 
use a different language version of the name if so desired.  So, for 
example:

\definecolor[ral1000]       [h=cdba88]
\definecolor[greenbeige]    [h=cdba88]

The script for the Pantone colours will only use the published name, 
whether it have a name or number or both.  So "Pantone Coated Orange 021 
C" will be found in the file as:

\definecolor[pantoneorange-021-c]       [h=fe5000]

and "Pantone Coated 801 C"

\definecolor[pantone801-c]      [h=009ace]

I won't, for the time being at least, publish the colour files in case 
there is any issue about the proprietary nature of colours, but offer up 
these two shell scripts.  With these scripts one can generate the colour 
files as needed for personal use.  If Hans feels that these scripts are 
appropriate to be published on the list, then I am happy to do so.

I will wait to hear back.

Best wishes.

PS:  I can already see some inconsistency in the sed processing as there 
is no dash prefix before 801...*sigh*.  Will have to work on that ;).

On 06Apr15, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Spot colors for printing rely on manufacturers that produce those 
inks/paints.
> The existing palettes are defined by (or in cooperation with) manufacturers.
> There exists nothing like open source paint recipes, AFAIK, so it would make no sense to define an open source (i.e. freely licensed) palette/system of spot colors.
> 
> Of course it’s possible to define a system of (anyhow) matching colors. But that’s so much a matter of taste and application that I wouldn’t start with such an enterprise.
> There are some good online tools that help you finding matching design colors, at least for (s)RGB, e.g. Adobe Kuler or paletton.com.
> If you need spot colors for printing, you need a (digital or physical) palette from the manufacturers.
> 
> 
> Greetlings, Hraban

-- 
----
Pavneet Arora           m: 647.406.6843
Waroc Informatik        t: 416.937.9276
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Re: RAL colours

[Pavneet Arora]

I just realized that I didn't include the link to the Unix video.  Here 
it is:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0


-- 
----
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Waroc Informatik        t: 416.937.9276
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