From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/86247 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Mikael P. Sundqvist" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:57:43 +0100 Message-ID: References: <52F7D270.8040006@gyza.cz> <52F91307.4070205@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0706944967==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1392109078 5232 80.91.229.3 (11 Feb 2014 08:57:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:57:58 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Tue Feb 11 09:58:07 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WD9AM-0008IO-HV for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:58:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE87A101E1; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:58:05 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id zmpZZnyGxjT2; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:58:03 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1C9101E3; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:58:03 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE704101E3 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:58:01 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7kTQEvkmDKuv for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:57:59 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter2-til.mf.surf.net (filter2-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.218]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA27101E1 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:57:49 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mail-pd0-x230.google.com (mail-pd0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::230]) by filter2-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s1B8vka7016155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 09:57:47 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-pd0-f176.google.com with SMTP id w10so7253453pde.35 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:57:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=3L+4sQAXpF2FSyxWl3xA+bKKQFHL0PVaHyMrsbzDIbs=; b=pYtircco8T5ykQ6QxpypdGu83uPu4EDPrvBbLawQXmgLRM6hEN8YgZLS5jH6/YrHSj zwlcKXDBveA/dVFRPGjPU5VytC94Bt2tMANLLFhNhEF3EvtE9/R/FqZ0gZRZGPrVPUdj l5FWPt2+4oHcoCETZHLEeTx296co7V1dxcj+zZvmPsAuRHmfAWJO3Wh6ctWMrGpMIXPk +GcwLavD8woU9SW+ViYqQYci/S0XNpcFMwdog6n/ch2Y/c/ICth7ajo6ge5paOcjjS6A xsY1emNSphmtMvaSJnZSwqK5JXDz7EnU6lmhxxfftih4YmNiGfgoPvUwmr8iXWH/gOQa miVQ== X-Received: by 10.68.93.132 with SMTP id cu4mr42910652pbb.129.1392109063930; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:57:43 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.68.201.163 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:57:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52F91307.4070205@wxs.nl> X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=2607:f8b0:400e:c02::230; country=US X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0TLoUVLuE - 7f85623154c6 - 20140211 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:86247 Archived-At: --===============0706944967== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6d8f163e8bcf04f21da64f --047d7b6d8f163e8bcf04f21da64f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen wrote: > On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It >> worked just fine. >> >> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but >> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt >> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt). >> >> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling >> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to >> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1] >> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with >> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples. >> > > In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and > probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need > tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from > hackery solutions (for several reasons). > I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in the previous email in mind: * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)? * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)? * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books). * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)? * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of things that should just work as expected... Best regards, Mikael > > When it comes to math environments, I think that thanks to the >> environments in http://dl.contextgarden.net/myway/mathalign.pdf >> we are OK. I >> >> sometimes miss the multline(d) environment from LaTeX. >> >> Best regards, Mikael >> >> [1] >> The attachments were too big, so I decided to put the pdf files on >> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/l.pdf >> and >> http://www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/c.pdf >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Jaroslav Hajtmar > > wrote: >> >> Hello ConTeXist. >> I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution. >> >> For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on >> internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math in >> ConTeXt >> >> Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different >> things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I >> typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I >> need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I >> found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on >> possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics. >> I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt >> typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type >> mathematics then use LaTeX. >> I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeXt >> for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible math >> modules (exist anything?) to be usable results. >> >> I have a few questions: >> >> 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConText >> or it is a general problem of ConTeXt? >> 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of >> non-elementary mathematics? >> 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt >> (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)? >> 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could >> bet mathematics at a reasonable level? >> 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g. >> in the future)? >> 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here? >> >> >> I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to >> typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool. >> >> Thanks for all the answers. >> >> Jaroslav Hajtmar >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> ___________________________ >> >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an >> entry to the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / >> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/__listinfo/ntg-context >> >> >> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net >> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/__projects/contextrev/ >> >> >> wiki : http://contextgarden.net >> ____________________________________________________________ >> ___________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _______________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to >> the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/ >> listinfo/ntg-context >> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net >> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ >> wiki : http://contextgarden.net >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _______________________ >> >> > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/ > listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > --047d7b6d8f163e8bcf04f21da64f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
Hi,

I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
worked just fine.

At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).

It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.

In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and probabl= y other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need tuning (or m= ore configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from hackery solutions= (for several reasons).

I agree it is good to avoid hackery as lon= g as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some things.= With the examples I gave in the previous email in mind:

* How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivativ= e (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the pr= ime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)?
* How am I = supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX example = (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
* Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed = (integral=3Dnolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
* What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in= integrals and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
* I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a prev= ious thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \= |? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling = that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind = of things that should just work as expected...

Best regards, Mikael

=A0

When it comes to math environments, I think that thanks to the
environments in http://dl.contextgarden.net/myway/mathalign.pdf
<http://dl.contex= tgarden..net/myway/mathalign.pdf> we are OK. I

sometimes miss the multline(d) environment from LaTeX.

Best regards, Mikael

[1]
The attachments were too big, so I decided to put the pdf files on
http://= www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/l.pdf
and
http://= www.maths.lth.se/~mickep/c.pdf




On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Jaroslav Hajtmar <hajtmar@gyza.cz
<mailto:hajtmar@gyz= a.cz>> wrote:

=A0 =A0 Hello ConTeXist.
=A0 =A0 I am very sorry for this OFF TOPIC contribution.

=A0 =A0 For writing of this text led me several hours of searching on
=A0 =A0 internet. I was looking for ways to typing of non-elementary math i= n
=A0 =A0 ConTeXt

=A0 =A0 Already a long time I use ConTeXt typesetting lot of different
=A0 =A0 things and I am very satisfied. In the many things, of which I
=A0 =A0 typed, was maths represented only marginally and minimally. Now I =A0 =A0 need to type some mathematics (at secondary school level) and I
=A0 =A0 found that I came across borders of my knowledge of ConTeXt, or on<= br> =A0 =A0 possibilities of ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics.
=A0 =A0 I do not in any way call into question the ability of ConTeXt
=A0 =A0 typesetting mathematics, although I think that who wants to type =A0 =A0 mathematics then use LaTeX.
=A0 =A0 I want find experience of users of ConTeXt for real using of ConTeX= t
=A0 =A0 for typesetting of mathematics. I wonder how users use possible mat= h
=A0 =A0 modules (exist anything?) to be usable results.

=A0 =A0 I have a few questions:

=A0 =A0 0. Do you think that this is only a problem for beginners of ConTex= t
=A0 =A0 or it is a general problem of ConTeXt?
=A0 =A0 1. How many of ConTeXt users use this tool for typesetting of
=A0 =A0 non-elementary mathematics?
=A0 =A0 2. Are you satisfied with the results, which produces ConTeXt
=A0 =A0 (thinking in the field of mathematics rate)?
=A0 =A0 3. What things do you need to have in ConTeXt study that one could<= br> =A0 =A0 bet mathematics at a reasonable level?
=A0 =A0 4. Is ConTeXt able to substitute LaTeX to typesetting of math (e.g.=
=A0 =A0 in the future)?
=A0 =A0 5. Can you think of any more questions that should be here?


=A0 =A0 I hope that my question will help other beginners who would like to=
=A0 =A0 typing of mathematics use ConText - this unique and useful tool.
=A0 =A0 Thanks for all the answers.

=A0 =A0 Jaroslav Hajtmar


=A0 =A0 ____________________________________________________________= ___________________________

=A0 =A0 If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an =A0 =A0 entry to the Wiki!

=A0 =A0 maillist : = ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
=A0 =A0 http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/__listinfo/ntg-context
=A0 =A0 <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context>=
=A0 =A0 webpage =A0: http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
=A0 =A0 archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/__projects/contex= trev/

=A0 =A0 <http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/>=
=A0 =A0 wiki =A0 =A0 : http://contextgarden.net
=A0 =A0 ____________________________________________________________= ___________________________





_____________________________________________________________= ______________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-cont= ext@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http://= www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki =A0 =A0 : http:= //contextgarden.net
_____________________________________________________________= ______________________



--

-------------------------------------------------------------= ----
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherl= ands
=A0 =A0 tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| ww= w.pragma-pod.nl
-------------------------------------------------------------= ----
_____________________________________________________________= ______________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-cont= ext@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http://= www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki =A0 =A0 : http:= //contextgarden.net
_____________________________________________________________= ______________________

--047d7b6d8f163e8bcf04f21da64f-- --===============0706944967== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============0706944967==--