From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/99037 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Mikael P. Sundqvist" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: The binomial coefficients do not look optimal Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:21:12 +0200 Message-ID: References: <903f8b53-b016-9df5-025f-1e96f899d25d@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4916625970005820012==" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1504635793 2203 195.159.176.226 (5 Sep 2017 18:23:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 18:23:13 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Tue Sep 05 20:22:55 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from zapf.boekplan.nl ([5.39.185.232] helo=zapf.ntg.nl) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dpIUj-0007gp-At for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Tue, 05 Sep 2017 20:22:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D1EFE1176; Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:22:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at zapf.boekplan.nl Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zapf.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FjZnjgDJT9PO; Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0DCFE111E; Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:22:23 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC4BFE111E for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:22:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at zapf.boekplan.nl Original-Received: from zapf.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zapf.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2VEBsSjMUMbO for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from mail-io0-f169.google.com (mail-io0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by zapf.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C0EEFE111D for ; Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:22:06 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: by mail-io0-f169.google.com with SMTP id i14so275094ioe.2 for ; Tue, 05 Sep 2017 11:22:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4b4Gza/5MGaAvlGRgWt4BiB9RsCNKqHvtnWKrorfFzM=; b=l0NlGx0ZiuWZA4+J2qPAlEokNW4u3kwKFw4xIWXw8lX/mN/yzFHPTfyXNcRUw88ax8 1D1yspZaygn4O1ZEdRzccPyrJ6CRIay04jc0JfbkJwdqlAQcEhf2fw01anEP6l/JkFMH w3+EHcLOe6Y7S3p++k5ZfGQVWRVienhp3LpGSzD+OAXYWCSujtecuO7Fo74jaaQuWVmt QeA5K7SzLln4osfCD/UcKgfTbPQfrKsLzuGM0vTRz1JKIO95g+a1uphzApiurPmKqp+j vAhUNG0TPY08LOpf60AjVibk4CfpwKN2ffpwu8DD3o0tkSvUWDX84GwoY4xC0OZGyRRH S/Nw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4b4Gza/5MGaAvlGRgWt4BiB9RsCNKqHvtnWKrorfFzM=; b=civ8clPrYuZ+FXx56IFCy09FtN/SPawRwcyxjW8+EQ7ItM40uaqGHASrdQiyqp72oz bEOaapoFpOReWeqxSF1X6yPxO1CTD1IpZa5gVYlx+0DQYNiJ9fiYWjhdIth00nMfuk9R 5gz+8O5U57XBAvbHGz3o2KCHcawFN1GYpBxJRfeOsE5rXV2MqBsxfQ+9jQHSnVhZo+Y4 BRc/K8E+sTchUSSYg+fBnendRmnLt6GlaZf+QuW9orqZFlJjotk4OpfZEkVva92PIlNE 1YSsFeQxs1KUdF9WhVaidw3ynMXv/2EiFDAXhlk2/jPMW5/8UB7Ufz1dDROLgKx4vhh+ t2og== X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUgfMWC2IJTQqbAwfd1sX5+eKFJTNSO0T3xVuZIDqRyL5PSPQVH0 1ajFfL9PCv8+Xcup3noJdKzMh4TsBd61 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADKCNb6f1/hrV5iBUjT6+xdFJjtixn0OQcbpDB/beD5LlEtUgb0EFgtuwPdG/iW4SGo6V6aAjlybnB1NzNEEFWR9qfo= X-Received: by 10.107.159.144 with SMTP id i138mr4631085ioe.266.1504635703539; Tue, 05 Sep 2017 11:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.107.59.83 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Sep 2017 11:21:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <903f8b53-b016-9df5-025f-1e96f899d25d@wxs.nl> X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.16 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: "ntg-context" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:99037 Archived-At: --===============4916625970005820012== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140f546a05f840558754cc5" --001a1140f546a05f840558754cc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Hans Hagen wrote: > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Re: [NTG-context] The binomial coefficients do not look optimal > Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 18:35:53 +0200 > From: Hans Hagen > To: Mikael P. Sundqvist > > On 9/2/2017 4:58 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote: > >> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Hans Hagen > pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote: >> >> On 9/1/2017 1:56 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I stumbled upon this (see the attached file for the result): >> >> %%% Test file >> \setupbodyfont[10pt] >> \starttext >> \startTEXpage[offset=10pt] >> \type{\tbinom{n}{k}}: $\tbinom{n}{k}$, (does not look good, the >> vertical space between $n$ and $k$ is too big) \par >> \type{\binom{n}{k}}: $\binom{n}{k}$ (looks fine to me)\par >> \type{\dbinom{n}{k}}: $\dbinom{n}{k}$ (does not look good, too >> big parenthesis, even for displayed formulas).\par >> \stopTEXpage >> \stoptext >> %%% End of test file >> >> I think something should be changed to get the binomial >> coefficients to look better. In particular I am concerned about >> the rather big parenthesis in displaystyle (and not so much >> about the vertical space issue in \tbinom). >> >> /Mikael >> >> PS The result looked better if I used the lucida fonts, if that >> helps. >> >> This is indeed font dependent. These binoms use a low level tex >> primitive that uses a threshold for steps and that one is part of >> the math parameters of a font and these are not that good for lm. As >> I'm looking into some other low level side effect I was in the mood >> for a configuration option for \setupmathfractions. >> >> So, in the next beta you can get the effects iof the attached: >> >> - relate the threshold to the bodyfont size >> - use normal left/right fences instead >> >> fwiw, cambria and pagella look better too. Upto you to wikify it. >> >> Hans >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE >> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands >> tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl >> | www.pragma-pod.nl >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _______________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an >> entry to the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / >> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context >> >> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net >> archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ >> >> wiki : http://contextgarden.net >> ____________________________________________________________ >> _______________________ >> >> >> Thank you very much, I'm looking forward to the next beta, and I will try >> to wikify it when I have tried it out. Also lucida looks better than latin >> modern does at the moment. >> >> I am a bit confused about the different versions. I would have guessed >> that there was \tbinom and \dbinom and that \binom used one of them >> depending on if one is in text mode or in display mode (just as I would >> expect \frac to behave like \tfrac in text mode and \dfrac in display >> mode). But \tbinom looks very different from \binom in text mode (with more >> vertical space). Is this on purpose? Have I missed something? >> > One can configure those things but the absense of rules and presence of > fences matters too (all kind of inter-this-or-that and > above-below-this-or-that playts a role). > > Hans > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/list > info/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net > archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ Today the new beta appeared, so I added something on the wiki, http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Math/fractions (I am not sure how to use the threshold key, so I made no examples with that.) Thanks, Hans, for the very quick new feature! /Mikael --001a1140f546a05f840558754cc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:36 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] The binomial coefficients do not look optimal Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 18:35:53 +0200
From: Hans Hagen <pra= gma@wxs.nl>
To: Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>

On 9/2/2017 4:58 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 9/1/2017 1:56 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I stumbled upon this (see the attached file for= the result):

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 %%% Test file
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \setupbodyfont[10pt]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \starttext
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \startTEXpage[offset=3D10pt]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \type{\tbinom{n}{k}}: $\tbinom{n}{k}$, (does no= t look good, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 vertical space between $n$ and $k$ is too big) = \par
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \type{\binom{n}{k}}: $\binom{n}{k}$ (looks fine= to me)\par
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \type{\dbinom{n}{k}}: $\dbinom{n}{k}$ (does not= look good, too
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 big parenthesis, even for displayed formulas).\= par
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \stopTEXpage
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \stoptext
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 %%% End of test file

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think something should be changed to get the = binomial
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 coefficients to look better. In particular I am= concerned about
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rather big parenthesis in displaystyle (and= not so much
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 about the vertical space issue in \tbinom).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /Mikael

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 PS The result looked better if I used the lucid= a fonts, if that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 helps.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is indeed font dependent. These binoms use a low level t= ex
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 primitive that uses a threshold for steps and that one is par= t of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the math parameters of a font and these are not that good for= lm. As
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm looking into some other low level side effect I was i= n the mood
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for a configuration option for \setupmathfractions.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 So, in the next beta you can get the effects iof the attached= :

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - relate the threshold to the bodyfont size
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - use normal left/right fences instead

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fwiw, cambria and pagella look better too. Upto you to wikify= it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hans

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------= ---------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ridder= straat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.prag= ma-ade.nl
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.pragma-ade.nl> | www.pragma-pod.nl =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.pragma-pod.nl>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------= ---------

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ________________________________________________________= ___________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If your question is of interest to others as well, please add= an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry to the Wiki!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/= ntg-context
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listi= nfo/ntg-context>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 webpage=C2=A0 : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.= aanhet.net
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 archive=C2=A0 : https://bitbucket.org= /phg/context-mirror/commits/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 wiki=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: http://contextgarden.net
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ________________________________________________________= ___________________________


Thank you very much, I'm looking forward to the next beta, and I will t= ry to wikify it when I have tried it out. Also lucida looks better than lat= in modern does at the moment.

I am a bit confused about the different versions. I would have guessed that= there was \tbinom and \dbinom and that \binom used one of them depending o= n if one is in text mode or in display mode (just as I would expect \frac t= o behave like \tfrac in text mode and \dfrac in display mode). But \tbinom = looks very different from \binom in text mode (with more vertical space).= =C2=A0 Is this on purpose? Have I missed something?
One can configure those things but the absense of rules and presence of fen= ces matters too (all kind of inter-this-or-that and above-below-this-or-tha= t playts a role).

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 H= ans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH = Hasselt | The Netherlands
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.p= ragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------=
_________________________________________________________________= __________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-cont= ext@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listin= fo/ntg-context
webpage=C2=A0 : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net=
archive=C2=A0 : https://bitbucket.org/phg/cont= ext-mirror/commits/
 wiki=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: http://contextgarden.net
_________________________________________________________________= __________________

<= br>
Today the new beta appeared, so I added= something on the wiki,


(I am not sure how to use th= e threshold key, so I made no examples with that.)

Thanks, Hans, for the very qui= ck new feature!

/Mikael
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