From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/86265 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Mikael P. Sundqvist" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: OT: Reflections on usability ConTeXt for typesetting of mathematics Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:18 +0100 Message-ID: References: <52F7D270.8040006@gyza.cz> <52F91307.4070205@wxs.nl> <78B47077-A71C-4C31-8F9B-F4CC1295BF77@uni-trier.de> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1291874620==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1392298834 19743 80.91.229.3 (13 Feb 2014 13:40:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:40:34 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Thu Feb 13 14:40:43 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WDwWt-0003Yq-7U for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:39 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F89101E2; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:38 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ZGcVJwOlfUoa; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:36 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7169D101E6; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:36 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7ACF101E6 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:35 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4E7N2sBvpwgF for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:34 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter3-ams.mf.surf.net (filter3-ams.mf.surf.net [192.87.102.71]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025F3101E2 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:24 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mail-pb0-x231.google.com (mail-pb0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]) by filter3-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s1DDeJIN011960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:40:20 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-pb0-f49.google.com with SMTP id up15so10800783pbc.36 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:40:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=+wQuI64bF0wKkfSmxbVnZe7nJQiyszDjTWSaGgRTkkk=; b=kwKwjmgU8kThYvYA0DxuaaVGZClKm5bjJ4zacCJrOL97Hd4T2GC6BRlD0bHNVOWSm+ 72mC2V0vSny/sabiKzVYcw2TTCmvQiGbhDmXKCgpkwbI0amlBfmUjxiT8dpLQD1SyZ9j ++WqsUZ1Ib9sfjku5pCXrCJCxkM7hmFY2/OWfU3oePLT7fd/2zcvaGNXnH6wlK3iysP6 fttGra7U/HjKPeg1qJrI0t9vGBAh4cXkVi1ARFAaodY5QfEEkHHJSotPh95i0WUbHSVU rM4hbMvg3motSlWGv1mad6Vha3Itl6NaUCAxmSrIUuHY3lbmfHG2fL+pn2/j65cYyPU+ U3WA== X-Received: by 10.66.129.169 with SMTP id nx9mr1819762pab.130.1392298818458; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:40:18 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.68.201.163 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 05:40:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231; country=US X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 03LpNEk53 - b4a664b5db17 - 20140213 (trained as not-spam) X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:86265 Archived-At: --===============1291874620== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113653707ed98504f249d405 --001a113653707ed98504f249d405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > Hi Mikael, > > Basically, I see your problem with ConTeXts handling of math as a matter > of taste! > That is you want LaTeX syntax. > > It is easy enough to get the results you want. > > The only place where I see a bug is that a single prime is set larger than > multple > primes. > > regards > Keith > Hi Keith, I do not agree with you. It is not so important to have the same syntax as in LaTeX (exception: it would be nice to get double bars from \| since it does not make sense to have \| yield a single bar since | does), but to be able to write very common formulas (look at the example with double derivative with respect to x in my examples above, and tell me how to do that correctly in ConTeXt!) in an acceptable way. Best regards, Mikael > > > Am 11.02.2014 um 14:18 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist : > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote: > >> >> Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist : >> >> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen wrote: >> >>> On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It >>>> worked just fine. >>>> >>>> At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but >>>> research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt >>>> and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt). >>>> >>>> It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling >>>> that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to >>>> output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1] >>>> l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with >>>> source l.tex and c.tex for some examples. >>>> >>> >>> In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and >>> probably other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need >>> tuning (or more configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from >>> hackery solutions (for several reasons). >>> >> >> I agree it is good to avoid hackery as long as possible, and I for sure >> is ready to relearn how to write some things. With the examples I gave in >> the previous email in mind: >> >> * How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivative >> (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the prime in the >> first derivative is the one I prefer)? >> >> No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always >> larger than multiple ones! >> You can always change its size! >> > > I think the user should not have to change its size. All primes should > have the same size, independent if they are one or several. > > >> >> * How am I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX >> example (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)? >> >> have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx} depending on the actual >> result you want. >> > > I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example files in my > earlier post in this thread. > > >> >> >> * Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed >> (integral=nolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books). >> >> Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX >> > > As above, I gave examples... > > Best regards, Mikael > > >> >> * What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals >> and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)? >> * I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a previous >> thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \|? Of >> course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling that >> if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind of >> things that should just work as expected... >> >> Best regards, Mikael >> >> >> regards >> Keith >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to >> the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / >> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context >> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net >> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ >> wiki : http://contextgarden.net >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > --001a113653707ed98504f249d405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Keith J. Schultz <s= chultzk@uni-trier.de> wrote:
Hi Mikae= l,

Basically, I see your problem with ConTeXts handling = of math as a matter of taste!
That is you want LaTeX syntax.=A0

It is easy = enough to get the results you want.

The only place= where I see a bug is that a single prime is set larger than multple
primes.=A0

regards
Keith

<= div>Hi Keith,

I do not agree with you. It is not so important to hav= e the same syntax as in LaTeX (exception: it would be nice to get double ba= rs from \| since it does not make sense to have \| yield a single bar since= | does), but to be able to write very common formulas (look at the example= with double derivative with respect to x in my examples above, and tell me= how to do that correctly in ConTeXt!) in an acceptable way.

Best regards, Mikael
=A0


=
Am 11.02.2014 um 14:18 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
=

On Tue, Fe= b 11, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Keith J. Schultz <schultzk@uni-trier.de>= ; wrote:

Am 11.02.2014 um 09:57 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at= 6:57 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
On 2/10/2014 9:24 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
Hi,

I used ConTeXt (mkii) to write my PhD thesis in Mathematics in 2008. It
worked just fine.

At the moment I write some exams and hand-outs using ConTeXt, but
research using LaTeX (since the journals do not really accept ConTeXt
and my collaborators dont know ConTeXt).

It certainly works OK to write math in ConTeXt, but I have a feeling
that there are some things that are somewhat broken or not finetuned to
output what mathematicians expect. Look at the attached pdf files [1]
l.pdf (from LaTeX) and c.pdf (from latest standalone ConTeXt), with
source l.tex and c.tex for some examples.

In mkiv we follow some alternative approaches compared to mkii (and probabl= y other tex macro packages) and some aspects indeed might need tuning (or m= ore configuration options) .. I try hard to get away from hackery solutions= (for several reasons).

I agree it is good to avoid hackery as lon= g as possible, and I for sure is ready to relearn how to write some things.= With the examples I gave in the previous email in mind:

* How am I supposed to write first derivative (f') and second derivativ= e (f'') in such a way that they have the same type of prime (the pr= ime in the first derivative is the one I prefer)?
= No sure if to call this a bug! It seems that a single prime is always large= r than multiple ones!
You can always change its size!

I think the user should not ha= ve to change its size. All primes should have the same size, independent if= they are one or several.
=A0

* How am= I supposed to write f_xx'' to get the output as in the LaTeX examp= le (i.e. so that the primes are over the xx)?
have to switch things around: f''_xx or f''_{xx} =A0= depending on the actual result you want.

I know about the grouping. Please have a look at my example = files in my earlier post in this thread.
=A0
=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
* Could the default placement of limits in integrals be changed = (integral=3Dnolimits)? This is how it is done in almost all math books).
=
Not sure what you want here! example? can be LateX
<= br>
As above, I gave examples...

Best regards, = Mikael
=A0

* What about the size and finetuning of placement of indices in integrals= and sums (and probably products, unions, ...)?
* I remember I suggested that \| should be double bars in a prev= ious thread on this list. Is there any drawback in giving double bars for \= |? Of course I can relearn and use \lVert and \rVert, but I have a feeling = that if we want people moving from LaTeX to ConTeXt, then this is the kind = of things that should just work as expected...

Best regards, Mikael

regards
Keith
_______________________________________________________________________= ____________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-cont= ext@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http:/= /www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki =A0 =A0 : http= ://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________= ________

___________________________________________________________________________= ________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add a= n entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/li= stinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http://= www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/proj= ects/contextrev/
wiki =A0=A0=A0=A0: h= ttp://contextgarden.net
____________________________________________= _______________________________________
<= /div>
_______________________________________________________________________= ____________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / <= a href=3D"http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context" target=3D"_blank"= >http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http://= www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki =A0 =A0 : http:= //contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________= ________

--001a113653707ed98504f249d405-- --===============1291874620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============1291874620==--