* Bibliography: criterium=all @ 2014-07-15 10:39 Flavien Lambert 2014-07-15 20:31 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-15 10:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 577 bytes --] Hi everyone, I really have difficulties with the bibliograpy system. Sorry about that. I would like to print the whole bibliography so I followed mkiv-publications.pdf and ended up with the file: \usebtxdataset[example][./mkiv-publications.bib] \definebtxrendering [example] [dataset=example, method=local, alternative=apa] \starttext \showbtxdatasetfields[example] \placebtxrendering [example] [criterium=all] \stoptext I get the list but not the bibliography itself. What is wrong with my file? Is there also a way to sort the entries by date? Best, F. [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 734 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-15 10:39 Bibliography: criterium=all Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-15 20:31 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 0:20 ` Flavien Lambert 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-15 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 7/15/2014 12:39 PM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > Hi everyone, I really have difficulties with the bibliograpy system. > Sorry about that. I would like to print the whole bibliography so I > followed mkiv-publications.pdf and ended up with the file: > > \usebtxdataset[example][./mkiv-publications.bib] > > \definebtxrendering > [example] > [dataset=example, > method=local, > alternative=apa] > > \starttext > > \showbtxdatasetfields[example] > \placebtxrendering > [example] > [criterium=all] > > \stoptext > > I get the list but not the bibliography itself. > > What is wrong with my file? Is there also a way to sort the entries by date? The criterium is used for cited entries, and text/all then means for the whole document. In your case you wan the data set (no refs in the text): \placebtxrendering [example] [method=dataset] This axis is one of the new things as using criterium for that is messy. Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-15 20:31 ` Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 0:20 ` Flavien Lambert 2014-07-16 7:33 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-16 0:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2464 bytes --] Thanks Hans, I am really sorry but I still do not get any entry printed (I followed your explanation as well as p. 25 of mkiv-publications.pdf) \usebtxdataset[example][./mkiv-publications.bib] \definebtxrendering[dataset=example,method=dataset] \starttext \showbtxdatasetfields[example] some text \placebtxrendering[example] \stoptext Could you just give a minimal example? And, if possible, a way to sort by date... Once again, my apologies for taking your time with that. Best, F. On 16 July 2014 04:31, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 7/15/2014 12:39 PM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > >> Hi everyone, I really have difficulties with the bibliograpy system. >> Sorry about that. I would like to print the whole bibliography so I >> followed mkiv-publications.pdf and ended up with the file: >> >> \usebtxdataset[example][./mkiv-publications.bib] >> >> \definebtxrendering >> [example] >> [dataset=example, >> method=local, >> alternative=apa] >> >> \starttext >> >> \showbtxdatasetfields[example] >> \placebtxrendering >> [example] >> [criterium=all] >> >> \stoptext >> >> I get the list but not the bibliography itself. >> >> What is wrong with my file? Is there also a way to sort the entries by >> date? >> > > The criterium is used for cited entries, and text/all then means for the > whole document. In your case you wan the data set (no refs in the text): > > \placebtxrendering > [example] > [method=dataset] > > This axis is one of the new things as using criterium for that is messy. > > Hans > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/ > listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 3795 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 0:20 ` Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-16 7:33 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 8:10 ` Flavien Lambert 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 7:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 7/16/2014 2:20 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > Thanks Hans, I am really sorry but I still do not get any entry printed > (I followed your explanation as well as p. 25 of mkiv-publications.pdf) > > \usebtxdataset[example][./mkiv-publications.bib] > > \definebtxrendering[dataset=example,method=dataset] > > \starttext > \showbtxdatasetfields[example] > some text > \placebtxrendering[example] > \stoptext > > Could you just give a minimal example? > And, if possible, a way to sort by date... > > Once again, my apologies for taking your time with that. > > Best, > F. > > > On 16 July 2014 04:31, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> > wrote: > > On 7/15/2014 12:39 PM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > > Hi everyone, I really have difficulties with the bibliograpy system. > Sorry about that. I would like to print the whole bibliography so I > followed mkiv-publications.pdf and ended up with the file: > > \usebtxdataset[example][./__mkiv-publications.bib] > > \definebtxrendering > [example] > [dataset=example, > method=local, > alternative=apa] > > \starttext > > \showbtxdatasetfields[example] > \placebtxrendering > [example] > [criterium=all] > > \stoptext > > I get the list but not the bibliography itself. > > What is wrong with my file? Is there also a way to sort the > entries by date? > > > The criterium is used for cited entries, and text/all then means for > the whole document. In your case you wan the data set (no refs in > the text): > > \placebtxrendering > [example] > [method=dataset] > > This axis is one of the new things as using criterium for that is messy. \usebtxdataset [example] [t:/manuals/publications-mkiv/mkiv-publications.bib] \definebtxrendering [example] [dataset=example] \starttext \showbtxdatasetfields[example] some text \placebtxrendering[example][method=dataset] \stoptext ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 7:33 ` Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 8:10 ` Flavien Lambert 2014-07-16 9:15 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-16 8:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3207 bytes --] Great! Thanks a lot! And concerning sorting by date? On 16 July 2014 15:33, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 7/16/2014 2:20 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > >> Thanks Hans, I am really sorry but I still do not get any entry printed >> (I followed your explanation as well as p. 25 of mkiv-publications.pdf) >> >> \usebtxdataset[example][./mkiv-publications.bib] >> >> \definebtxrendering[dataset=example,method=dataset] >> >> \starttext >> \showbtxdatasetfields[example] >> some text >> \placebtxrendering[example] >> \stoptext >> >> Could you just give a minimal example? >> And, if possible, a way to sort by date... >> >> Once again, my apologies for taking your time with that. >> >> Best, >> F. >> >> >> On 16 July 2014 04:31, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> >> >> wrote: >> >> On 7/15/2014 12:39 PM, Flavien Lambert wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, I really have difficulties with the bibliograpy >> system. >> Sorry about that. I would like to print the whole bibliography so >> I >> followed mkiv-publications.pdf and ended up with the file: >> >> \usebtxdataset[example][./__mkiv-publications.bib] >> >> >> \definebtxrendering >> [example] >> [dataset=example, >> method=local, >> alternative=apa] >> >> \starttext >> >> \showbtxdatasetfields[example] >> \placebtxrendering >> [example] >> [criterium=all] >> >> \stoptext >> >> I get the list but not the bibliography itself. >> >> What is wrong with my file? Is there also a way to sort the >> entries by date? >> >> >> The criterium is used for cited entries, and text/all then means for >> the whole document. In your case you wan the data set (no refs in >> the text): >> >> \placebtxrendering >> [example] >> [method=dataset] >> >> This axis is one of the new things as using criterium for that is >> messy. >> > > \usebtxdataset > [example] > [t:/manuals/publications-mkiv/mkiv-publications.bib] > > \definebtxrendering > [example] > [dataset=example] > > > \starttext > \showbtxdatasetfields[example] > some text > \placebtxrendering[example][method=dataset] > \stoptext > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/ > listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 4876 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 8:10 ` Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-16 9:15 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 9:31 ` Flavien Lambert 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 7/16/2014 10:10 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > Great! Thanks a lot! > > And concerning sorting by date? sorttype=author sorts by author,year,journal,title,page so what do you mean with 'by year' Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 9:15 ` Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 9:31 ` Flavien Lambert 2014-07-16 9:52 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-16 9:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1251 bytes --] The sort by author is perfect. Thanks, F. On 16 Jul 2014 17:16, "Hans Hagen" <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 7/16/2014 10:10 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > >> Great! Thanks a lot! >> >> And concerning sorting by date? >> > > sorttype=author > > sorts by author,year,journal,title,page > > so what do you mean with 'by year' > > Hans > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/ > listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ____________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > [-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2308 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 485 bytes --] ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 9:31 ` Flavien Lambert @ 2014-07-16 9:52 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 11:59 ` Alan BRASLAU 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 9:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 7/16/2014 11:31 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > The sort by author is perfect. fyi, sorting authors is kind of complex as we need to take all name elements into account (initials, firstnames, surnames, vons, juniors); of course there can be multiple authors; add to the extra axes year journal, title and page the torture test is a list with 400K author specifications (taken from a bunch of bib databases) which eventually produces a 5500 page document in practice, certainly when we have smaller databases, load time can be neglected (here it is .4 sec luatex vs .3 sec luajittex); sort preparation and processing of that bunch takes 35 sec for luatex and 19 sec for luajittex but of course for normal cases you won't even noticed it .. bib databases with 400K entries are probably not used often (i have no clue if bibtex can handle these numbers) > Thanks, > F. > > On 16 Jul 2014 17:16, "Hans Hagen" <pragma@wxs.nl > <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote: > > On 7/16/2014 10:10 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > > Great! Thanks a lot! > > And concerning sorting by date? > > > sorttype=author > > sorts by author,year,journal,title,page > > so what do you mean with 'by year' > > Hans > > ------------------------------__------------------------------__----- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > <http://www.pragma-ade.com> > | www.pragma-pod.nl > <http://www.pragma-pod.nl> > ------------------------------__------------------------------__----- > _______________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an > entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/__listinfo/ntg-context > <http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context> > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/__projects/contextrev/ > <http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/> > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > _______________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 9:52 ` Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 11:59 ` Alan BRASLAU 2014-07-16 12:24 ` Rob Heusdens 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2014-07-16 11:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hans, Sorting simply by year (or, rather, year then author then title ...) could be useful. Take, for example, a pluriannual report having many references. One might wish to display a list of publications by year. Should this be selected using "sorttype=year"? Another possible syntax could be sorttype={author,year,title,page} and this would be the default for APA. Of course, the other common sorting is "sorttype=cite". Furthermore, sorttype={year,author,title,page} would be another variant, and I can even imagine using: sorttype={journal,volume,number,page} or sorttype={publisher,year,title} and I am sure that users may need something totally unanticipated. The change from the present is that "sortype=author" implies {author,year,title,page}. I suppose that it could default to this order if no other order is specified. Just like "sorttype=year" could default to something sane like {year,author,title,page} unless a different order is explicitly given, etc. A subtlety is how to handle missing fields, say in a mixture of articles and books where articles have journal titles (journal) and article titles (title) and books have book titles (title). Should missing journal fields (books) come before or after articles or should title then be taken into account, as in {journal|title}? Do we need to allow such logic? We can continue to discuss this with Thomas and Luigi but I mention it here on the mailing list as Flavien Lambert brought up the question. Alan On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 11:52:15 +0200 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 7/16/2014 11:31 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > > The sort by author is perfect. > > fyi, sorting authors is kind of complex as we need to take all name > elements into account (initials, firstnames, surnames, vons, > juniors); of course there can be multiple authors; add to the extra > axes year journal, title and page > > the torture test is a list with 400K author specifications (taken > from a bunch of bib databases) which eventually produces a 5500 page > document > > in practice, certainly when we have smaller databases, load time can > be neglected (here it is .4 sec luatex vs .3 sec luajittex); sort > preparation and processing of that bunch takes 35 sec for luatex and > 19 sec for luajittex but of course for normal cases you won't even > noticed it .. bib databases with 400K entries are probably not used > often > > (i have no clue if bibtex can handle these numbers) > > > Thanks, > > F. > > > > On 16 Jul 2014 17:16, "Hans Hagen" <pragma@wxs.nl > > <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote: > > > > On 7/16/2014 10:10 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: > > > > Great! Thanks a lot! > > > > And concerning sorting by date? > > > > > > sorttype=author > > > > sorts by author,year,journal,title,page > > > > so what do you mean with 'by year' > > > > Hans -- Alan Braslau CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC CNRS URA 2464 Orme des Merisiers 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15 fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86 mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 11:59 ` Alan BRASLAU @ 2014-07-16 12:24 ` Rob Heusdens 2014-07-16 12:44 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Rob Heusdens @ 2014-07-16 12:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hello, This is more a 'side-comment', but anytime I see an application that wants in fact to query data from some dataresource, I ask myself: why is that not implemented as a real relational database? BibTex is some weird implementation for a problem that in facts requests a real relational dababase approach, in which your data does not reside in a file, but a couple of tables. Like PUBLISHER (the organisation that publishes the article/book/journal, etc.), PUBLICATION, EDITION, AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR (a person making a contribution to a PUBLICATION, like author, co-author, editor) etc. For example: every author that has contributed to a publication (or edition thereof) has only one record in the AUTHOR table, and for each contribution to a PUBLICATION/EDITION there is a record in the CONTRIBUTION table, with the foreign keys to the primary key of AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR and to the PUBLICATION/EDITION table. A data-model for such must exist in the real-world, somewhere, I guess. But Tex and other implementors have choosen to implement this in a simple flat-file system, and which I think is part of the problem, because the implemenation as flat file has certain limits. Esp. when more demanding features are requested. Still thinking that ultimately that would be the best way to implement BibTex, using a relational database as repository instead of flat files. And you could implement many other 'nice' featueres, like querying other works related to the works you want to cite (for instance at the basis of relevant key/reference words or other). Would be do-able I guess (LuaTex can access dabatases), only problem is you have to convert al these .bib files into the database format. But don't know if anyone has thought about implementing Bibtex as a database. Greetings, Rob > Hans, > > Sorting simply by year (or, rather, year then author then title ...) > could be useful. Take, for example, a pluriannual report having many > references. One might wish to display a list of publications by year. > Should this be selected using "sorttype=year"? > > Another possible syntax could be > sorttype={author,year,title,page} > and this would be the default for APA. > Of course, the other common sorting is "sorttype=cite". > > Furthermore, > sorttype={year,author,title,page} > would be another variant, and I can even imagine using: > sorttype={journal,volume,number,page} > or > sorttype={publisher,year,title} > and I am sure that users may need something totally unanticipated. > > The change from the present is that "sortype=author" implies > {author,year,title,page}. I suppose that it could default to this order > if no other order is specified. Just like "sorttype=year" could default > to something sane like {year,author,title,page} unless a different > order is explicitly given, etc. > > A subtlety is how to handle missing fields, say in a mixture of > articles and books where articles have journal titles (journal) and > article titles (title) and books have book titles (title). Should > missing journal fields (books) come before or after articles or should > title then be taken into account, as in {journal|title}? Do we need to > allow such logic? > > We can continue to discuss this with Thomas and Luigi but I mention it > here on the mailing list as Flavien Lambert brought up the question. > > Alan > > > > > On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 11:52:15 +0200 > Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > >> On 7/16/2014 11:31 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: >> > The sort by author is perfect. >> >> fyi, sorting authors is kind of complex as we need to take all name >> elements into account (initials, firstnames, surnames, vons, >> juniors); of course there can be multiple authors; add to the extra >> axes year journal, title and page >> >> the torture test is a list with 400K author specifications (taken >> from a bunch of bib databases) which eventually produces a 5500 page >> document >> >> in practice, certainly when we have smaller databases, load time can >> be neglected (here it is .4 sec luatex vs .3 sec luajittex); sort >> preparation and processing of that bunch takes 35 sec for luatex and >> 19 sec for luajittex but of course for normal cases you won't even >> noticed it .. bib databases with 400K entries are probably not used >> often >> >> (i have no clue if bibtex can handle these numbers) >> >> > Thanks, >> > F. >> > >> > On 16 Jul 2014 17:16, "Hans Hagen" <pragma@wxs.nl >> > <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote: >> > >> > On 7/16/2014 10:10 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: >> > >> > Great! Thanks a lot! >> > >> > And concerning sorting by date? >> > >> > >> > sorttype=author >> > >> > sorts by author,year,journal,title,page >> > >> > so what do you mean with 'by year' >> > >> > Hans > > > -- > Alan Braslau > CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC > CNRS URA 2464 > Orme des Merisiers > 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE > tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15 > fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86 > mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 12:24 ` Rob Heusdens @ 2014-07-16 12:44 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 15:15 ` Alan BRASLAU 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ntg-context On 7/16/2014 2:24 PM, Rob Heusdens wrote: > Hello, > > This is more a 'side-comment', but anytime I see an application that wants > in fact to query data from some dataresource, I ask myself: why is that > not implemented as a real relational database? > > BibTex is some weird implementation for a problem that in facts requests a > real relational dababase approach, in which your data does not reside in a > file, but a couple of tables. Like PUBLISHER (the organisation that > publishes the article/book/journal, etc.), PUBLICATION, EDITION, > AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR (a person making a contribution to a PUBLICATION, like > author, co-author, editor) etc. > > For example: every author that has contributed to a publication (or > edition thereof) has only one record in the AUTHOR table, and for each > contribution to a PUBLICATION/EDITION there is a record in the > CONTRIBUTION table, with the foreign keys to the primary key of > AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR and to the PUBLICATION/EDITION table. > > A data-model for such must exist in the real-world, somewhere, I guess. > But Tex and other implementors have choosen to implement this in a simple > flat-file system, and which I think is part of the problem, because the > implemenation as flat file has certain limits. Esp. when more demanding > features are requested. > > Still thinking that ultimately that would be the best way to implement > BibTex, using a relational database as repository instead of flat files. > And you could implement many other 'nice' featueres, like querying other > works related to the works you want to cite (for instance at the basis of > relevant key/reference words or other). > > Would be do-able I guess (LuaTex can access dabatases), only problem is > you have to convert al these .bib files into the database format. > > But don't know if anyone has thought about implementing Bibtex as a database. the main problem there is that normally authors collect their own bibentries and that bib has become sort of a standard ... i have no problem with a database approach but it would also mean normalizing (e.g. get rid of tex stuff in bib entries) and so technically it's no problem but politically ... (similar arguments can be given for math habit and so) with context we're not too bound to such 'standards' but we can't ignore them (and therefore support them); the bib implementation is flexible enough to be extended but in order to get a database approach done a reasonable set of users need to carry it (there are some search options built in btw) > Greetings, > > Rob > >> Hans, >> >> Sorting simply by year (or, rather, year then author then title ...) >> could be useful. Take, for example, a pluriannual report having many >> references. One might wish to display a list of publications by year. >> Should this be selected using "sorttype=year"? >> >> Another possible syntax could be >> sorttype={author,year,title,page} >> and this would be the default for APA. >> Of course, the other common sorting is "sorttype=cite". >> >> Furthermore, >> sorttype={year,author,title,page} >> would be another variant, and I can even imagine using: >> sorttype={journal,volume,number,page} >> or >> sorttype={publisher,year,title} >> and I am sure that users may need something totally unanticipated. >> >> The change from the present is that "sortype=author" implies >> {author,year,title,page}. I suppose that it could default to this order >> if no other order is specified. Just like "sorttype=year" could default >> to something sane like {year,author,title,page} unless a different >> order is explicitly given, etc. >> >> A subtlety is how to handle missing fields, say in a mixture of >> articles and books where articles have journal titles (journal) and >> article titles (title) and books have book titles (title). Should >> missing journal fields (books) come before or after articles or should >> title then be taken into account, as in {journal|title}? Do we need to >> allow such logic? >> >> We can continue to discuss this with Thomas and Luigi but I mention it >> here on the mailing list as Flavien Lambert brought up the question. >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 11:52:15 +0200 >> Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: >> >>> On 7/16/2014 11:31 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: >>>> The sort by author is perfect. >>> >>> fyi, sorting authors is kind of complex as we need to take all name >>> elements into account (initials, firstnames, surnames, vons, >>> juniors); of course there can be multiple authors; add to the extra >>> axes year journal, title and page >>> >>> the torture test is a list with 400K author specifications (taken >>> from a bunch of bib databases) which eventually produces a 5500 page >>> document >>> >>> in practice, certainly when we have smaller databases, load time can >>> be neglected (here it is .4 sec luatex vs .3 sec luajittex); sort >>> preparation and processing of that bunch takes 35 sec for luatex and >>> 19 sec for luajittex but of course for normal cases you won't even >>> noticed it .. bib databases with 400K entries are probably not used >>> often >>> >>> (i have no clue if bibtex can handle these numbers) >>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> F. >>>> >>>> On 16 Jul 2014 17:16, "Hans Hagen" <pragma@wxs.nl >>>> <mailto:pragma@wxs.nl>> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 7/16/2014 10:10 AM, Flavien Lambert wrote: >>>> >>>> Great! Thanks a lot! >>>> >>>> And concerning sorting by date? >>>> >>>> >>>> sorttype=author >>>> >>>> sorts by author,year,journal,title,page >>>> >>>> so what do you mean with 'by year' >>>> >>>> Hans >> >> >> -- >> Alan Braslau >> CEA DSM-IRAMIS-SPEC >> CNRS URA 2464 >> Orme des Merisiers >> 91191 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex FRANCE >> tel: +33 1 69 08 73 15 >> fax: +33 1 69 08 87 86 >> mailto:alan.braslau@cea.fr >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to >> the Wiki! >> >> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / >> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context >> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net >> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ >> wiki : http://contextgarden.net >> ___________________________________________________________________________________ >> > > > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Bibliography: criterium=all 2014-07-16 12:44 ` Hans Hagen @ 2014-07-16 15:15 ` Alan BRASLAU 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2014-07-16 15:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Rob Heusdens; +Cc: ntg-context, Hans Hagen BibTeX was one approach that is somewhat a standard. There are other bibliography database file formats such as EndNote, RIS, and many others. From an academic researcher's point of view, one practical point is the accessibility of bibliographical data. Many websites, both public as well as paying can output to these formats, so we use them. Hans has undertaken a lua reimplementation of using these bibliography database files. BibTeX as a program is no longer used in the new bibliography macros. Our use of the bibliography database is far from covering all of the possibilities of the BibTeX program, but we are building it up with functionality that we find necessary. The performance appears to be quite satisfactory and the flexibility of being able to program in lua has allowed Hans to fairly easily provide whatever crazy functionality that we have thrown at him so far! Maybe, as you suggest, a real relational database approach would be useful. As long as it does not become too complicated and not impose important dependencies. I am not a specialist on these issues so I do not have any real opinion, though. Alan On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:44:59 +0200 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > On 7/16/2014 2:24 PM, Rob Heusdens wrote: > > Hello, > > > > This is more a 'side-comment', but anytime I see an application > > that wants in fact to query data from some dataresource, I ask > > myself: why is that not implemented as a real relational database? > > > > BibTex is some weird implementation for a problem that in facts > > requests a real relational dababase approach, in which your data > > does not reside in a file, but a couple of tables. Like PUBLISHER > > (the organisation that publishes the article/book/journal, etc.), > > PUBLICATION, EDITION, AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR (a person making a > > contribution to a PUBLICATION, like author, co-author, editor) etc. > > > > For example: every author that has contributed to a publication (or > > edition thereof) has only one record in the AUTHOR table, and for > > each contribution to a PUBLICATION/EDITION there is a record in the > > CONTRIBUTION table, with the foreign keys to the primary key of > > AUTHOR/CONTRIBUTOR and to the PUBLICATION/EDITION table. > > > > A data-model for such must exist in the real-world, somewhere, I > > guess. But Tex and other implementors have choosen to implement > > this in a simple flat-file system, and which I think is part of the > > problem, because the implemenation as flat file has certain limits. > > Esp. when more demanding features are requested. > > > > Still thinking that ultimately that would be the best way to > > implement BibTex, using a relational database as repository instead > > of flat files. And you could implement many other 'nice' featueres, > > like querying other works related to the works you want to cite > > (for instance at the basis of relevant key/reference words or > > other). > > > > Would be do-able I guess (LuaTex can access dabatases), only > > problem is you have to convert al these .bib files into the > > database format. > > > > But don't know if anyone has thought about implementing Bibtex as a > > database. > > the main problem there is that normally authors collect their own > bibentries and that bib has become sort of a standard ... i have no > problem with a database approach but it would also mean normalizing > (e.g. get rid of tex stuff in bib entries) and so > > technically it's no problem but politically ... > > (similar arguments can be given for math habit and so) > > with context we're not too bound to such 'standards' but we can't > ignore them (and therefore support them); the bib implementation is > flexible enough to be extended but in order to get a database > approach done a reasonable set of users need to carry it > > (there are some search options built in btw) ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-07-16 15:15 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2014-07-15 10:39 Bibliography: criterium=all Flavien Lambert 2014-07-15 20:31 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 0:20 ` Flavien Lambert 2014-07-16 7:33 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 8:10 ` Flavien Lambert 2014-07-16 9:15 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 9:31 ` Flavien Lambert 2014-07-16 9:52 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 11:59 ` Alan BRASLAU 2014-07-16 12:24 ` Rob Heusdens 2014-07-16 12:44 ` Hans Hagen 2014-07-16 15:15 ` Alan BRASLAU
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).