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From: "Jairo A. del Rio" <jairoadelrio6@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context
Subject: Re: Commands with arguments before in ConTeXt
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 19:18:09 -0500
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I'll take a look at it. Thank you a lot, Taco.

Regards,

Jairo :)

El lun., 29 de jun. de 2020 a la(s) 05:36, Taco Hoekwater (
taco@elvenkind.com) escribi=C3=B3:

> Hi,
>
> Oversimplifying:
>
> TeX (and derivatives like luatex) read the input file as a list of
> operators with optional suffix arguments.
>
> In normal (text) mode, there is no expression state maintained except
> inside the handling of such optional arguments.
>
> It follows that, if there is a top-level text input like
>
>   a\bold{a}
>
> TeX treats this as (assuming =E2=80=99simple=E2=80=99 macro definitions):
>
>   command a     (no arguments)
>   command \bold (a macro with one one braced argument)
>
> And by the time =E2=80=9C\bold" is seen, the  =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D command=
 has already been
> processed completely.
>
>
> In math mode, there *is* an expression state maintained, and that is why
> \over and \atop work.
>
>
> For further information and actual details, you can just look at the
> luatex source (it is in C):
>
>
> https://github.com/TeX-Live/luatex/blob/trunk/source/texk/web2c/luatexdir=
/tex/maincontrol.c
>
> The function
>
>   void main_control(void)
>
> is the one that does all the heavy lifting (using a dispatch table).
>
> Taco
>
> > On 29 Jun 2020, at 12:15, Jairo A. del Rio <jairoadelrio6@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hans, after your explanation I'm actually curious now about details, bu=
t
> my knowledge is too limited now (maybe reading source codes would be
> better? Worse?). I do a bit of C, but I don't know about Pascal at all an=
d
> I'm not sure where to start from in order to understand TeX better. Well,
> at least I know why that feature isn't supported. I'll be thankful for an=
y
> references. Thank you very much.
> >
> > Jairo :)
> >
> > El lun., 29 de jun. de 2020 a la(s) 02:28, Hans Hagen (j.hagen@xs4all.n=
l)
> escribi=C3=B3:
> > On 6/28/2020 10:48 PM, Jairo A. del Rio wrote:
> > > I've read the following is not possible in TeX
> > >
> > > \def#1\macro{blabla#1}
> > >
> > > where arguments come before. The only partial exceptions are commands
> > > like \atop or \over, which are in fact primitives. Is there a way to
> do
> > > this in ConTeXt?
> > >
> > > Could it be a feature request for LuaMetaTeX? I've seen Hans
> > > experimenting a lot with new primitives and new possibilities for
> > > arguments, like #0 and co., so I ask in case it's not too nonsensical
> to
> > > propose it. Regards
> > Every \foo will be looked up, so by the time \macro in:
> >
> >    bla bla {\bf xxx}\macro{xxx}
> >
> > is seen, the {\bf xxx} is already passed and processed. TeX never looks
> > back, which actually would make for a pretty complex multipass parsing
> > and expansion management (forward control and backward: \expandafter
> > would then also have an \expandbefore companion). Even in the simple
> > case: should it keep track of quantities done (grouped, single token,
> > box, etc.) and then in retrospect see it as #1 (them being nodes by now
> > and not tokens)?
> >
> > So, why in math but not in text? The \atop and \over (those are
> > basically all the same command but with a different treatment
> > afterwards) are an exception: (1) tex knows that is is in math mode, an=
d
> > in math mode the { } are not really arguments but defines some stuff
> > handled together. Much processing (not all) is delayed to a second pass=
,
> > so {1}\over{2} internally becomes \over{1}{2} and even that is kind of
> > tricky because there are math styles involved (which makes for some har=
d
> > coded behaviour that in the perspective of luametatex i try to get more
> > grip on). Now, in order to handle this one (!) exception to lookahead
> > parsing, special tracking happens in math mode, the previous math
> > grouped stuff is registered and adapted to the \over when seen,
> > otherwise it stays as is. This exception also maked the code somewhat
> > messier because there are several spots where it has to be dealt with
> > (also think of saving and restoring states). Just imagine that there
> > were more such commands. Believe me, you really don't want to know the
> > details.
> >
> > So the answer is "Can't be done without overhauling the whole concept".
> >
> > Now, I know that the narrative is that context is a moving target
> > (contrary to other macro packages that don't / can't change because
> > users / publishers expect them to behave the same forever) so one can
> > argue that for context we can follow a drastic different route, but eve=
n
> > then, we can't shoot ourselves in the foot too often. I know that some
> > people (read: Alan) love these {{}\foo{}} syntaxes but live would have
> > been simpler if even \over has not be in there with prefix notation
> > (there is a reason why macro package have \frac like variants).
> >
> > Hans
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >                                            Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> >                Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> >         tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> _________________________________________________________________________=
__________
> > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
> to the Wiki!
> >
> > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> > webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> > archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> > wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> >
> _________________________________________________________________________=
__________
>
> Taco Hoekwater
> Elvenkind BV
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
__________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
__________
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;ll take a look at it. Thank you a lot, Taco.<br=
><br></div><div>Regards,<br></div><div><br></div>Jairo :)<br></div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">El lun., 29 de=
 jun. de 2020 a la(s) 05:36, Taco Hoekwater (<a href=3D"mailto:taco@elvenki=
nd.com">taco@elvenkind.com</a>) escribi=C3=B3:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
Oversimplifying: <br>
<br>
TeX (and derivatives like luatex) read the input file as a list of operator=
s with optional suffix arguments.<br>
<br>
In normal (text) mode, there is no expression state maintained except insid=
e the handling of such optional arguments. <br>
<br>
It follows that, if there is a top-level text input like<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 a\bold{a}<br>
<br>
TeX treats this as (assuming =E2=80=99simple=E2=80=99 macro definitions):<b=
r>
<br>
=C2=A0 command a=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(no arguments)<br>
=C2=A0 command \bold (a macro with one one braced argument)<br>
<br>
And by the time =E2=80=9C\bold&quot; is seen, the=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D=
 command has already been processed completely. <br>
<br>
<br>
In math mode, there *is* an expression state maintained, and that is why \o=
ver and \atop work.<br>
<br>
<br>
For further information and actual details, you can just look at the luatex=
 source (it is in C):<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/TeX-Live/luatex/blob/trunk/source/texk=
/web2c/luatexdir/tex/maincontrol.c" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://github.com/TeX-Live/luatex/blob/trunk/source/texk/web2c/luatexdir/tex=
/maincontrol.c</a><br>
<br>
The function <br>
<br>
=C2=A0 void main_control(void)<br>
<br>
is the one that does all the heavy lifting (using a dispatch table).<br>
<br>
Taco<br>
<br>
&gt; On 29 Jun 2020, at 12:15, Jairo A. del Rio &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jairo=
adelrio6@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jairoadelrio6@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hans, after your explanation I&#39;m actually curious now about detail=
s, but my knowledge is too limited now (maybe reading source codes would be=
 better? Worse?). I do a bit of C, but I don&#39;t know about Pascal at all=
 and I&#39;m not sure where to start from in order to understand TeX better=
. Well, at least I know why that feature isn&#39;t supported. I&#39;ll be t=
hankful for any references. Thank you very much.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jairo :)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; El lun., 29 de jun. de 2020 a la(s) 02:28, Hans Hagen (<a href=3D"mail=
to:j.hagen@xs4all.nl" target=3D"_blank">j.hagen@xs4all.nl</a>) escribi=C3=
=B3:<br>
&gt; On 6/28/2020 10:48 PM, Jairo A. del Rio wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;ve read the following is not possible in TeX<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; \def#1\macro{blabla#1}<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; where arguments come before. The only partial exceptions are comm=
ands <br>
&gt; &gt; like \atop or \over, which are in fact primitives. Is there a way=
 to do <br>
&gt; &gt; this in ConTeXt?<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Could it be a feature request for LuaMetaTeX? I&#39;ve seen Hans =
<br>
&gt; &gt; experimenting a lot with new primitives and new possibilities for=
 <br>
&gt; &gt; arguments, like #0 and co., so I ask in case it&#39;s not too non=
sensical to <br>
&gt; &gt; propose it. Regards<br>
&gt; Every \foo will be looked up, so by the time \macro in:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bla bla {\bf xxx}\macro{xxx}<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; is seen, the {\bf xxx} is already passed and processed. TeX never look=
s <br>
&gt; back, which actually would make for a pretty complex multipass parsing=
 <br>
&gt; and expansion management (forward control and backward: \expandafter <=
br>
&gt; would then also have an \expandbefore companion). Even in the simple <=
br>
&gt; case: should it keep track of quantities done (grouped, single token, =
<br>
&gt; box, etc.) and then in retrospect see it as #1 (them being nodes by no=
w <br>
&gt; and not tokens)?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So, why in math but not in text? The \atop and \over (those are <br>
&gt; basically all the same command but with a different treatment <br>
&gt; afterwards) are an exception: (1) tex knows that is is in math mode, a=
nd <br>
&gt; in math mode the { } are not really arguments but defines some stuff <=
br>
&gt; handled together. Much processing (not all) is delayed to a second pas=
s, <br>
&gt; so {1}\over{2} internally becomes \over{1}{2} and even that is kind of=
 <br>
&gt; tricky because there are math styles involved (which makes for some ha=
rd <br>
&gt; coded behaviour that in the perspective of luametatex i try to get mor=
e <br>
&gt; grip on). Now, in order to handle this one (!) exception to lookahead =
<br>
&gt; parsing, special tracking happens in math mode, the previous math <br>
&gt; grouped stuff is registered and adapted to the \over when seen, <br>
&gt; otherwise it stays as is. This exception also maked the code somewhat =
<br>
&gt; messier because there are several spots where it has to be dealt with =
<br>
&gt; (also think of saving and restoring states). Just imagine that there <=
br>
&gt; were more such commands. Believe me, you really don&#39;t want to know=
 the <br>
&gt; details.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So the answer is &quot;Can&#39;t be done without overhauling the whole=
 concept&quot;.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Now, I know that the narrative is that context is a moving target <br>
&gt; (contrary to other macro packages that don&#39;t / can&#39;t change be=
cause <br>
&gt; users / publishers expect them to behave the same forever) so one can =
<br>
&gt; argue that for context we can follow a drastic different route, but ev=
en <br>
&gt; then, we can&#39;t shoot ourselves in the foot too often. I know that =
some <br>
&gt; people (read: Alan) love these {{}\foo{}} syntaxes but live would have=
 <br>
&gt; been simpler if even \over has not be in there with prefix notation <b=
r>
&gt; (there is a reason why macro package have \frac like variants).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hans<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ridderstraat 27=
 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tel: 038 477 53 69 | <a href=3D"http:=
//www.pragma-ade.nl" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">www.pragma-ade.nl=
</a> | <a href=3D"http://www.pragma-pod.nl" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">www.pragma-pod.nl</a><br>
&gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
_____________<br>
&gt; If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry=
 to the Wiki!<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; maillist : <a href=3D"mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl" target=3D"_blank">ntg=
-context@ntg.nl</a> / <a href=3D"http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-con=
text" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listin=
fo/ntg-context</a><br>
&gt; webpage=C2=A0 : <a href=3D"http://www.pragma-ade.nl" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.pragma-ade.nl</a> / <a href=3D"http://contex=
t.aanhet.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://context.aanhet.ne=
t</a><br>
&gt; archive=C2=A0 : <a href=3D"https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/co=
mmits/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://bitbucket.org/phg/cont=
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&gt; ______________________________________________________________________=
_____________<br>
<br>
Taco Hoekwater<br>
Elvenkind BV<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
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