From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/74946 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alasdair McAndrew Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Style file for iPad? Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:35:25 +1100 Message-ID: References: <20120306134022.GB29209@khaled-laptop> <5489AF63-D5B2-4DD1-9836-77A3906D207F@frycomm.com> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0417550563==" X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1331159737 12968 80.91.229.3 (7 Mar 2012 22:35:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:35:37 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Wed Mar 07 23:35:36 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1S5PSJ-0003YC-Ia for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 23:35:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF2BCB274; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:35:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7gir7-l1fmPI; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:35:31 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2FF2CB259; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:35:30 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B18CB259 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:35:29 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id eC2q+j86D4kO for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:35:27 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter3-til.mf.surf.net (filter3-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.219]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6965DCB251 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:35:27 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mail-vx0-f169.google.com (mail-vx0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) by filter3-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id q27MZP96028738 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:35:26 +0100 Original-Received: by vcbfk14 with SMTP id fk14so7723735vcb.14 for ; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:35:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=d6J/7NbV31Pq18w1hxImPoQJKUSAmFSfnJimQZDxi/Q=; b=d6BrJbujrl7PRIj5fNDO9AuzQkv16syHUmMtT//9WqT0YqL7/eTxdcpU9EKIfPYCho zkaQzHMTMt6hf+cKrvQe/iVcYoXkt1Ks1TM3SNOU5e5cVZn9MyLgLduxIzWFDN/5n/Fp DHvbca+IMc7mxMiVvY6ikvjgzmcSz8Bql9OzWx81Uv6LIQO7fTQb5x3nFDaVSenhhWwN sktFzflgRI95cM/dEsy1ExWI7SH0F71+yKbLOeLpu5wTN+gGfQ3QwEng7KT4KZ3jLqyZ hIFCw8/xcldIT2mG1eDxc4mpxArAHMvO8h1b95f82vwfObOdQpP2gYZCi7ZdKhTxJww9 uKwA== Original-Received: by 10.52.35.12 with SMTP id d12mr6102635vdj.99.1331159725306; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:35:25 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.220.155.143 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:35:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5489AF63-D5B2-4DD1-9836-77A3906D207F@frycomm.com> X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=209.85.220.169; country=US; region=CA; city=Mountain View; postalcode=94043; latitude=37.4192; longitude=-122.0574; metrocode=807; areacode=650; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.4192,-122.0574&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0UGGKzqFT - a030c3ce91ec - 20120307 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 194.171.167.219 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:74946 Archived-At: --===============0417550563== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30780ace90f20c04baaec605 --20cf30780ace90f20c04baaec605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while ago I grabbed some mathematics book samples for the Kindle. These were books produced by well-known publishing companies, retailing for considerable sums (even in the electronic versions), and in all of them the mathematics typesetting was atrocious. I think that in most (all?) ebook formats, a formula is included as an image, which means that it automatically resizes. This means that formulas may be of all different sized fonts, which gives the result a very scrappy look. At least PDF - even if not designed for ebook reading - provides decent layout. The problem is not just mathematics. I have some ebooks about poetry, and in them the included poems (as set off from the surrounding text), seem to be typeset almost randomly, with regard to layout, font size and spacing. And these are commercial ebooks, for which I paid real Earth dollars! -Alasdair On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:30 AM, William Adams wrote= : > On Mar 7, 2012, at 3:34 AM, Nicola wrote: > > > It's worse than pre-TeX printed books. Which makes me wonder: is anyone > in the > > world addressing this? Are there people in the TeX community involved i= n > the > > standardization processes (say, Epub3, but also the various W3C > specifications), > > who could push forward ideas from TeX, like minimum requirements for th= e > > algorithms that rendering engines should use? These questions (together > with > > sighs) arise every time I see a web page especially with mathematical > notation=85 > > The problem is, since the rendering is based on HTML, people just grab a > web browser framework and build on that to make an ebook viewer. > > Here's a post I wrote up once comparing a specific ePub display on a > specific viewing program w/ a hand-tweaked Plain TeX version: > > http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3D1371218&postcount=3D7 > > > those who're curious may find it educational to compare my .pdf w/ this > ePub version to see the sort of typographic infelicities which even in th= e > best ePub version can't be controlled for --- > > > - one word last lines > > - # of lines on a page constantly changing to prevent widows / orphans > > - overly loose line on the middle of pg. 20 > > - 3 word stack on pg. 21 (meditation/Meditation) > > - 2 word stack on pg. 32 (black) > > - 2 word stack on pg. 37 (the) Twice! > > - six word river on pg. 40 (the/their/the/the/its/we) > > - 2 word stacks on pg. 40 (a & We) > > - 3 word stack on pg. 46 (the/the/The) > > - 2 word stack on pg. 47 (a) > > - awkward break at the bottom of the first page of Chapter VII where > the poem is referred to, but appears on the following page > > > (when viewed in Sony's ebook viewing program)). In the .pdf I believe > there were only one or two places where I let two word stacks stand > (because they were intractable) --- will have to try again using xetex an= d > margin protrusion and character expansion (I'd used DEK's macro for hangi= ng > punctuation from _The TeXbook_). > > William > > -- > William Adams > senior graphic designer > Fry Communications > Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow. > > > _________________________________________________________________________= __________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to > the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / > http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > > _________________________________________________________________________= __________ > --=20 Blog: http://amca01.wordpress.com Web: http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew --20cf30780ace90f20c04baaec605 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while ago I grabbed some mathematics book=A0samples=A0for the Kindle. =A0= These were books produced by well-known publishing companies, retailing for= considerable sums (even in the electronic versions), and in all of them th= e mathematics typesetting was atrocious. =A0I think that in most (all?) ebo= ok formats, a formula is included as an image, which means that it automati= cally resizes. =A0This means that formulas may be of all different sized fo= nts, which gives the=A0result=A0a very scrappy look. =A0At least PDF - even= if not designed for ebook=A0reading=A0- provides decent layout.

The problem is not just mathematics. =A0I have some ebooks a= bout poetry, and in them the included poems (as set off=A0from=A0the surrou= nding text), seem to be typeset almost randomly, with regard to layout, fon= t size and spacing. =A0And these are commercial ebooks, for which I paid re= al Earth dollars!

-Alasdair

On Thu, Mar= 8, 2012 at 3:30 AM, William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote:
On Mar 7, 2012, at 3:34 AM, Nicola wrote:

> It's worse than pre-TeX printed books. Which makes me wonder: is a= nyone in the
> world addressing this? Are there people in the TeX community involved = in the
> standardization processes (say, Epub3, but also the various W3C specif= ications),
> who could push forward ideas from TeX, like minimum requirements for t= he
> algorithms that rendering engines should use? These questions (togethe= r with
> sighs) arise every time I see a web page especially with mathematical = notation=85

The problem is, since the rendering is based on HTML, people just gra= b a web browser framework and build on that to make an ebook viewer.

Here's a post I wrote up once comparing a specific ePub display on a sp= ecific viewing program w/ a hand-tweaked Plain TeX version:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.ph= p?p=3D1371218&postcount=3D7

> those who're curious may find it educational to compare my .pdf w/= this ePub version to see the sort of typographic infelicities which even i= n the best ePub version can't be controlled for ---

> =A0- one word last lines
> =A0- # of lines on a page constantly changing to prevent widows / orph= ans
> =A0- overly loose line on the middle of pg. 20
> =A0- 3 word stack on pg. 21 (meditation/Meditation)
> =A0- 2 word stack on pg. 32 (black)
> =A0- 2 word stack on pg. 37 (the) Twice!
> =A0- six word river on pg. 40 (the/their/the/the/its/we)
> =A0- 2 word stacks on pg. 40 (a & We)
> =A0- 3 word stack on pg. 46 (the/the/The)
> =A0- 2 word stack on pg. 47 (a)
> =A0- awkward break at the bottom of the first page of Chapter VII wher= e the poem is referred to, but appears on the following page

> (when viewed in Sony's ebook viewing program)). In the .pdf I beli= eve there were only one or two places where I let two word stacks stand (be= cause they were intractable) --- will have to try again using xetex and mar= gin protrusion and character expansion (I'd used DEK's macro for ha= nging punctuation from _The TeXbook_).

William

--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

___________________________________________________________________________= ________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / <= a href=3D"http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context" target=3D"_blank"= >http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage =A0: http://= www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive =A0: http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki =A0 =A0 : http:= //contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________= ________



--
= Blog: http://amca= 01.wordpress.com
Web:=A0 http://sites.google.com/site/amca01/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/alasdair.mcandrew
--20cf30780ace90f20c04baaec605-- --===============0417550563== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ --===============0417550563==--