From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/88173 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gerben Wierda Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: State of documentation of ConTeXt? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:32 +0200 Message-ID: References: <1642f57885676cbd1020027a2bff7c40.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <53C41372.7080802@wxs.nl> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1405890474 5749 80.91.229.3 (20 Jul 2014 21:07:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 21:07:54 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sun Jul 20 23:07:50 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1X8yKj-0001ti-Tq for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A03810221 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id MUDE3szt1+YM for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:49 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0720310223 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:42 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB8B101E6 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 15yPtnzcac33 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:34 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from filter1-ams.mf.surf.net (filter1-ams.mf.surf.net [192.87.102.69]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id AACAB101E1 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:34 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net (smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net [212.54.42.164]) by filter1-ams.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id s6KL7XbW010129 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:34 +0200 Original-Received: from [212.54.42.134] (helo=smtp3.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net) by smtpq1.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1X8yKT-0007OY-Uc for ntg-context@ntg.nl; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:33 +0200 Original-Received: from d57d7632.static.ziggozakelijk.nl ([213.125.118.50] helo=mail.rna.nl) by smtp3.tb.mail.iss.as9143.net with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1X8yKT-0005Ss-Ep for ntg-context@ntg.nl; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.rna.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFE9FF74B4 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rna.nl Original-Received: from mail.rna.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (vanroodewierda.rna.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0rHKZUZQoR2Y for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:32 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from luna-wifi.rna.nl (luna-wifi.rna.nl [192.168.2.89]) by mail.rna.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6125FF74A6 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:07:32 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Ziggo-spambar: -- X-Ziggo-spamscore: -2.9 X-Ziggo-spamreport: ALL_TRUSTED=-1,BAYES_00=-1.9,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01 X-Ziggo-Spam-Status: No X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=212.54.42.164; country=NL; latitude=52.5000; longitude=5.7500; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.5000,5.7500&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 0NMsJ7ytC - f5def7ccc4de - 20140720 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 192.87.102.69 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:88173 Archived-At: On 20 Jul 2014, at 22:24, Mojca Miklavec w= rote: > On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Gerben Wierda wrote: >> = >> Sorry, you can=92t expect users to be able to do that. Lamport >> created LaTeX *and* wrote the =93LaTeX User=92s Guide and Reference manu= al=94. > = > > Indeed. Sorry, you can't do that to users. Christian Schenk also > created MikTeX (I still have MikTeX files from 23 years ago) *and* is > still developing it actively and answering emails from users. > > = >> The authors mentioned below were all developers too. You need that level= of >> understanding to write a manual. > = > What kind of developers? Did they contribute to the LaTeX core? (Many > ConTeXt users are developers, but it highly depends what you count as > a developer.) Some contributed packages, some other stuff (even printer drivers). They al= l were deeply involved with the inside of TeX and LaTeX at a level that the= y would have to understand TeX and LaTeX to the core as they were developer= s in that environment >> Hans & Taco: how much money would need to be raised to produce something= of >> the quality of Kopka & Daly=92s =93Guide to LaTeX=94? or Goossens, Mitt= elbach & >> Samarin=92s =93The LaTeX Companion=94? > = > What do you mean with "of the quality of these books"? Having a > similar number of pages written in comparable quality (something like > a revised beginner's manual) or so complete in description of the > functionality as the mentioned manuals? I agree these are now outdated in several areas and less useful as they wer= e half a decade ago. But something that is complete enough for a user (not = a TeXnician), doesn=92t contain too many white spots and certainly does not= contain stuff that isn=92t true anymore. > My estimate would be that a complete context reference with > well-described options and including trivial examples would require > cca. 10.000-50.000 pages. Maybe others have different estimates, but > now do the math. (Existing manuals like MetaFun or the old cont-en.pdf > are roughly 400 pages. But that's nowhere near 10 % of the ConTeXt > functionality. One would need to document the whole TeX part, the > whole metapost part, the whole lua part, the whole xml, all perl, ruby > and lua scripts, write better man pages, probably list the whole > Unicode to show the ConTeXt names in one appendix =85) If a tool needs 50.000 pages to document its use, you are in trouble (in mo= re ways than one). = I think in reality a set of manuals, with core functionality and all kinds = of extras a manual of 500 pages and maybe a reference manual of the same si= ze would be something useful and thus meaningful. Stuff like MetaFun can ha= ve its own manual and doesn=92t need to be in a core ConTeXt manual. A user manual is enough. You don=92t need a developer manual. So, documenti= ng all the development you can do with ConTeXt (programming in lua and what= not) would for me not be what is needed for a user manual. What a user manu= al does is what cont-en.pdf does, but then up to date and complete. G ___________________________________________________________________________= ________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-cont= ext webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________= ________