From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/91789 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dominik Klein Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Accessibility and Tagged PDFs: Bugs and Feature Requests Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:07 +0200 Message-ID: Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0952209576==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1435911190 19117 80.91.229.3 (3 Jul 2015 08:13:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:13:10 +0000 (UTC) To: "ntg-context@ntg.nl" Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Fri Jul 03 10:12:56 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([5.39.185.229]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZAw5g-0006dN-OM for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Jul 2015 10:12:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91A51022B for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id yK8w0OsltbUy for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:54 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C8E10247 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:21 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A150D101FC for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id rPYJJa327hm5 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:15 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from filter2-utr.mf.surf.net (filter2-utr.mf.surf.net [195.169.124.153]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7D5101E6 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:15 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from DUB004-OMC2S2.hotmail.com (dub004-omc2s2.hotmail.com [157.55.1.141]) by filter2-utr.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id t638C70h003658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:12:11 +0200 Original-Received: from DUB112-W96 ([157.55.1.136]) by DUB004-OMC2S2.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Fri, 3 Jul 2015 01:12:07 -0700 X-TMN: [YF7IzvA5nGP6UQoV4Ej5C9PI4Ofxoro4] X-Originating-Email: [dominik.klein@outlook.com] Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2015 08:12:07.0232 (UTC) FILETIME=[F3EBCC00:01D0B567] X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: ntg-context@ntg.nl, base:default, @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=157.55.1.141; country=US; region=Washington; city=Redmond; latitude=47.6740; longitude=-122.1215; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.6740,-122.1215&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 04OLIcaNp - 9c31843d5d16 - 20150703 Received-SPF: pass (filter2-utr.mf.surf.net: domain of dominik.klein@outlook.com designates 157.55.1.141 as permitted sender) receiver=filter2-utr.mf.surf.net; client-ip=157.55.1.141; envelope-from=; helo=DUB004-OMC2S2.hotmail.com; identity=mailfrom X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 195.169.124.153 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.16 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Original-Sender: "ntg-context" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:91789 Archived-At: --===============0952209576== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d9edf5d7-859e-4a62-86a0-385263662aa7_" --_d9edf5d7-859e-4a62-86a0-385263662aa7_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed Jul 1=2C 18:47:57 CEST 2015=2C Hans Hagen wrote: >> /Artifact=0A= >> BMC=0A= >> ..=0A= >> EMC=0A= >=0A= >i'll add the simple variant (i see no need to add properties to =0A= >something that is supposed to be ignored anyway) thanks! >> 2.) Images without alternate text:=0A= >=0A= >i'll pass the label to the tag as alt text=0A= >=0A= >\externalfigure[t:/sources/cow.pdf][label=3Dwhatever]=0A= Again=2C thanks! >> 3.) Tag names of the resulting tag structure:=0A= >> Section 14.8.4 of [1] defines standard structure types=2C=20 >=0A= >The set of those standard tags is rather limited and imo one of the=20 >craziest things in pdf as we then end up with abuse of those html tags=20 >(and probably endless discussions on what to map onto what). I don't=20 >even have a clue what it would add to the concept either. Reflow is a=20 >braindead thing anyway. Indeed=2C the set of those tags is very limited. Unfortunately=2C as=20 far as I know=2C some screen readers (for the visually impaired) use these as navigation aids=2C i.e. press button "jump to next section"=2C and the reader will look for the next section marked as or something= . Is it difficult to make the mapping user-defineable in the source tex-file?= =20 Say=2C like such a command: \definemapping[ section=3DSect=2C sectiontitle=3DH sectionnumber=3DH=2C ... tablerow=3DTR ... ] It would then give users the control on what to map onto what=2C depending on what kind of documents they create. >> All in all=2C these seem to be the only issues that prevent accessible P= DF >> documents with context. For those within an organization where >> accessibility is required legally for all publications=2C compliance to = at >> least Acrobat Pro's checks is a huge issue. I do not know how difficult >> these things are to implement in Context (personally I am just lost in >> the code)=2C but looking at e.g. tex.stackexchange >> for question related to accessibility=2C this is indeed a major obstacle >> for several people.=0A= >=0A= >In fact adding pdf tagging to context was rather easy. Some time was =0A= >So=2C it's not that difficult to add features=2C more a matter of prioriti= es =0A= >and motivation (apart from the fact that my acrobat is a bit old by now = =0A= >so I cannot really test). I can fully understand that such things are not of the highest priority.=20 Nevertheless accessibility plays more and more a role=2C e.g. lately=2C eve= n conferences like http://chi2015.acm.org/authors/guide-to-an-accessible-subm= ission/ require accessible pdfs (the workflow they suggest=2C i.e. tagging a pdf by acrobat pro after compiling of course doesn't work at all - the generate= d structure is useless). Hence=2C for some users=2C it makes all the difference. For example for me = and some other friends=2C it would allow to change from using Microsoft Word to= =20 a ConTeXt based workflow.=20 cheers - Dominik = --_d9edf5d7-859e-4a62-86a0-385263662aa7_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 

On Wed Jul 1=2C 18:47:5=
7 CEST 2015=2C Hans Hagen wrote:
>=3B>=3B /Artifact=0A=
>=3B>=3B    BMC=0A=
>=3B>=3B    ..=0A=
>=3B>=3B    EMC=0A=
>=3B=0A=
>=3Bi'll add the simple variant (i see no need to add properties to =0A=
>=3Bsomething that is supposed to be ignored anyway)

thanks!

>=3B>=3B 2.) Images without alternate text:=0A=
>=3B=0A=
>=3Bi'll pass the label to the tag as alt text=0A=
>=3B=0A=
>=3B\externalfigure[t:/sources/cow.pdf][label=3Dwhatever]=0A=

Again=2C thanks!

>=3B>=3B 3.) Tag names of the resulting =
tag structure:=0A=
>=3B>=3B Section 14.8.4 of [1] defines standard structure types=
=2C 
>=3B=0A=
>=3BThe set of those standard tags is rather limited and imo one of t=
he 
>=3Bcraziest things in pdf as we then end up with abuse of those h=
tml tags 
>=3B(and probably endless discussions on what to map onto wh=
at). I don't 
>=3Beven have a clue what it would add to the concept ei=
ther. Reflow is a 
>=3Bbraindead thing anyway.

Indeed=2C the se=
t of those tags is very limited. Unfortunately=2C as 
far as I know=2C s=
ome screen readers (for the visually impaired)
use these as navigation a=
ids=2C i.e. press button "jump to next section"=2C
and the reader will l=
ook for the next section marked as <=3BSect>=3B or something.

Is=
 it difficult to make the mapping user-defineable in the source tex-file? <=
br>Say=2C like such a command:
\definemapping[
  section=3DSect=2C  sectiontitle=3DH
  sectionnumber=3DH=2C
  ...
  tablerow=3DTR  ...
]

It would then give users the control on what to map ont=
o what=2C depending
on what kind of documents they create.

>=3B=
>=3B All in all=2C these seem to be the only issues that prevent acces=
sible PDF
>=3B>=3B documents with context. For those within a=
n organization where
>=3B>=3B accessibility is required legal=
ly for all publications=2C compliance to at
>=3B>=3B least Ac=
robat Pro's checks is a huge issue. I do not know how difficult
>=3B>=3B these things are to implement in Context (personally I am just =
lost in
>=3B>=3B the code)=2C but looking at e.g. tex.stackex=
change
>=3B>=3B for question related to accessibility=2C this=
 is indeed a major obstacle
>=3B>=3B for several people.=0A=
>=3B=0A=
>=3BIn fact adding pdf tagging to context was rather easy. Some time was =
=0A=
>=3BSo=2C it's not that difficult to add features=2C more a matter of pri=
orities =0A=
>=3Band motivation (apart from the fact that my acrobat is a bit old by n=
ow =0A=
>=3Bso I cannot really test).

I can fully understand that such thi=
ngs are not of the highest priority. 
Nevertheless accessibility plays m=
ore and more a role=2C e.g. lately=2C even
conferences like http://chi2015.acm.org/authors/guide-to-an-accessible-submission/<=
/a>
require accessible pdfs (the workflow they suggest=2C i.e. tagging a=
 pdf
by acrobat pro after compiling of course doesn't work at all - the =
generated
structure is useless).

Hence=2C for some users=2C it ma=
kes all the difference. For example for me and
some other friends=2C it =
would allow to change from using Microsoft Word to 
a ConTeXt based work=
flow. 

cheers

- Dominik
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