$n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

$n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Andreas Harder]

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Hi all,

I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts. 

I've made some test files:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z 

The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?

Regards
	Andreas

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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Hans Hagen]

On 4-3-2011 2:09, Andreas Harder wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts.
>
> I've made some test files:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z
>
> The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?

It depends what correction boils down to. Normally it's the opentype 
font parameters that control the threshold to the next step in a larger 
delimiter

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Andreas Harder]

Am 04.03.2011 um 15:28 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 4-3-2011 2:09, Andreas Harder wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts.
>> 
>> I've made some test files:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z
>> 
>> The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?
> 
> It depends what correction boils down to. Normally it's the opentype font parameters that control the threshold to the next step in a larger delimiter

The placement is right for $n\above 1sp k$, only if the thickness of the par is set to 0, the ‚k‘ is lowered. Perhaps some patch in goodie-file is possible, so one could load it in a font definition.

Andreas
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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Andreas Harder]

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Am 04.03.2011 um 15:28 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 4-3-2011 2:09, Andreas Harder wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts.
>> 
>> I've made some test files:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z
>> 
>> The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?
> 
> It depends what correction boils down to. Normally it's the opentype font parameters that control the threshold to the next step in a larger delimiter

This subject is also discussed on the LuaLaTeX mailing list.
http://tug.org/pipermail/lualatex-dev/2011-March/thread.html#1118 

Greeting
	Andreas

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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Hans Hagen]

On 6-3-2011 1:25, Andreas Harder wrote:
>
> Am 04.03.2011 um 15:28 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>
>> On 4-3-2011 2:09, Andreas Harder wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts.
>>>
>>> I've made some test files:
>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z
>>>
>>> The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?
>>
>> It depends what correction boils down to. Normally it's the opentype font parameters that control the threshold to the next step in a larger delimiter
>
> This subject is also discussed on the LuaLaTeX mailing list.
> http://tug.org/pipermail/lualatex-dev/2011-March/thread.html#1118

hm, i actually decided to limit the number of mailing lists to follow so 
best provide a summary of conclusions instead of a link -)

anyhow, I wonder if we really need to keep supporting this

   x \operator y

kind of syntax (at least that's what crossed my mind when i saw that 
this atopwithdelims primitive was used in your example) .. maybe we 
should simply define a few extra commands and relax these primitives

aditya: shouldn't we merge the m-newmath code into the core?

I can add some configurability to lfg files so that one can tune fonts 
but even then the value are debatable

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Andreas Harder]

Am 06.03.2011 um 12:54 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 6-3-2011 1:25, Andreas Harder wrote:
>> 
>> Am 04.03.2011 um 15:28 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> 
>>> On 4-3-2011 2:09, Andreas Harder wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts.
>>>> 
>>>> I've made some test files:
>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z
>>>> 
>>>> The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?
>>> 
>>> It depends what correction boils down to. Normally it's the opentype font parameters that control the threshold to the next step in a larger delimiter
>> 
>> This subject is also discussed on the LuaLaTeX mailing list.
>> http://tug.org/pipermail/lualatex-dev/2011-March/thread.html#1118
> 
> hm, i actually decided to limit the number of mailing lists to follow so best provide a summary of conclusions instead of a link -)

OK

> anyhow, I wonder if we really need to keep supporting this
> 
>  x \operator y
> 
> kind of syntax (at least that's what crossed my mind when i saw that this atopwithdelims primitive was used in your example) .. maybe we should simply define a few extra commands and relax these primitives

I'm fine with \binom{x}{y} etc.

> aditya: shouldn't we merge the m-newmath code into the core?

+1

> I can add some configurability to lfg files so that one can tune fonts but even then the value are debatable

I don't know the best value either, but et least one could manipulate it.

Thank you for your efforts!

	Andreas
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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Hans Hagen]

On 6-3-2011 1:22, Andreas Harder wrote:

> I don't know the best value either, but et least one could manipulate it.

the next beta will support parameter overload in the goodies

         parameters = { -- test values
             FactorA = 123.456,
             FactorB = false,
             FactorC = function(value,target,original) return 7.89 * 
target.factor end,
             FactorD = "Hi There!",
         },


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Andreas Harder]

Am 06.03.2011 um 15:33 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 6-3-2011 1:22, Andreas Harder wrote:
> 
>> I don't know the best value either, but et least one could manipulate it.
> 
> the next beta will support parameter overload in the goodies
> 
>        parameters = { -- test values
>            FactorA = 123.456,
>            FactorB = false,
>            FactorC = function(value,target,original) return 7.89 * target.factor end,
>            FactorD = "Hi There!",
>        },

Many thanks, Hans! I'm looking forward to try it.

Regards
	Andreas
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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Hans Hagen wrote:

> On 6-3-2011 1:25, Andreas Harder wrote:
>> 
>> Am 04.03.2011 um 15:28 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> 
>>> On 4-3-2011 2:09, Andreas Harder wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>> I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with 
>>>> OpenType math fonts.
>>>> 
>>>> I've made some test files:
>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z
>>>> 
>>>> The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and 
>>>> Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?
>>> 
>>> It depends what correction boils down to. Normally it's the opentype font 
>>> parameters that control the threshold to the next step in a larger 
>>> delimiter
>> 
>> This subject is also discussed on the LuaLaTeX mailing list.
>> http://tug.org/pipermail/lualatex-dev/2011-March/thread.html#1118
>
> hm, i actually decided to limit the number of mailing lists to follow so best 
> provide a summary of conclusions instead of a link -)
>
> anyhow, I wonder if we really need to keep supporting this
>
>  x \operator y
>
> kind of syntax (at least that's what crossed my mind when i saw that this 
> atopwithdelims primitive was used in your example) .. maybe we should simply 
> define a few extra commands and relax these primitives

At the macro package level, I agree with this. The \over, \choose, \atop 
etc macros can be made \undefined; We already have a high level interface 
for them.

Do you also want to remove them from the engine? That will simplify the 
\mathstyle macros, but then luatex will not be backward compatible with 
tex. (I don't care about that, but others would).

> aditya: shouldn't we merge the m-newmath code into the core?

Definitely.

Aditya
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Hans Hagen]

On 6-3-2011 6:03, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Mar 2011, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>> On 6-3-2011 1:25, Andreas Harder wrote:
>>>
>>> Am 04.03.2011 um 15:28 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>>>
>>>> On 4-3-2011 2:09, Andreas Harder wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm (re)tying to draw some attention to the $n\choose k$-issue with
>>>>> OpenType math fonts.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've made some test files:
>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/151837/OpenType-Math.7z
>>>>>
>>>>> The best output is generated by LuaLaTeX (at least for Asana and
>>>>> Cambria). Would it be possible to correct the ConTeXt output as well?
>>>>
>>>> It depends what correction boils down to. Normally it's the opentype
>>>> font parameters that control the threshold to the next step in a
>>>> larger delimiter
>>>
>>> This subject is also discussed on the LuaLaTeX mailing list.
>>> http://tug.org/pipermail/lualatex-dev/2011-March/thread.html#1118
>>
>> hm, i actually decided to limit the number of mailing lists to follow
>> so best provide a summary of conclusions instead of a link -)
>>
>> anyhow, I wonder if we really need to keep supporting this
>>
>> x \operator y
>>
>> kind of syntax (at least that's what crossed my mind when i saw that
>> this atopwithdelims primitive was used in your example) .. maybe we
>> should simply define a few extra commands and relax these primitives
>
> At the macro package level, I agree with this. The \over, \choose, \atop
> etc macros can be made \undefined; We already have a high level
> interface for them.
>
> Do you also want to remove them from the engine? That will simplify the
> \mathstyle macros, but then luatex will not be backward compatible with
> tex. (I don't care about that, but others would).

no, we can keep them there as we want that compatibility (for plain etc)

>> aditya: shouldn't we merge the m-newmath code into the core?
>
> Definitely.

ok, will do

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Andreas Harder]

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Am 06.03.2011 um 15:33 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 6-3-2011 1:22, Andreas Harder wrote:
> 
>> I don't know the best value either, but et least one could manipulate it.
> 
> the next beta will support parameter overload in the goodies
> 
>        parameters = { -- test values
>            FactorA = 123.456,
>            FactorB = false,
>            FactorC = function(value,target,original) return 7.89 * target.factor end,
>            FactorD = "Hi There!",
>        },

I'm afraid, I don't get it. Here is what I tried:
I copied all stack-relevant values from asana-math.tma and put them in the return section of the goodies file (like showed in lm-math.lfg). But even if I set all values to zero, the output remains the same. Im I doing something wrong? 


[-- Attachment #2: asana-math.lfg --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 1240 bytes --]

-- This patch code is moved from font-pat.lua to this goodies
-- files as it does not belomg in the core code.

local patches = fonts.otf.enhancers.patches

local function patch(data,filename,threshold)
    local m = data.metadata.math
    if m then
        local d = m.DisplayOperatorMinHeight or 0
        if d < threshold then
            patches.report("DisplayOperatorMinHeight(%s -> %s)",d,threshold)
            m.DisplayOperatorMinHeight = threshold
        end
    end
end

patches.register("after","check math parameters","asana",function(data,filename) patch(data,filename,1350) end)

return {
   name = "lm-asana",
   version = "1.00",
   comment = "Goodies that complement asana.",
   author = "Hans Hagen",
   copyright = "ConTeXt development team",
   parameters = { -- test values
      -- data = {
	 metadata = {
	    math = {
	       StackBottomDisplayStyleShiftDown = 0,
	       StackBottomShiftDown = 0,
	       StackDisplayStyleGapMin = 0,
	       StackGapMin = 0,
	       StackTopDisplayStyleShiftUp = 0,
	       StackTopShiftUp = 0,
	       StretchStackBottomShiftDown = 0,
	       StretchStackGapAboveMin = 0,
	       StretchStackGapBelowMin = 0,
	       StretchStackTopShiftUp = 0,
	    },
	 },
      -- },
   },
}

[-- Attachment #3: test-goodies.tex --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 254 bytes --]


\usetypescript[palatino,asana]
\startTEXpage[offset=1pt]
  \ruledhbox
    {% \switchtobodyfont[palatino]  $\binom{n}{k}$
     \switchtobodyfont[asana]     $\binom{n}{k}$}
\stopTEXpage

%%% Local Variables: 
%%% mode: context
%%% TeX-master: t
%%% End: 

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Greeting
	Andreas

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Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2011, Andreas Harder wrote:

> I'm afraid, I don't get it. Here is what I tried:
> I copied all stack-relevant values from asana-math.tma and put them in =
> the return section of the goodies file (like showed in lm-math.lfg). But =
> even if I set all values to zero, the output remains the same. Im I =
> doing something wrong?=20
>
> [snip]
>
> return {
>    name = "lm-asana",
>    version = "1.00",
>    comment = "Goodies that complement asana.",
>    author = "Hans Hagen",
>    copyright = "ConTeXt development team",
>    parameters = { -- test values
>       -- data = {
> 	 metadata = {
> 	    math = {
> 	       StackBottomDisplayStyleShiftDown = 0,
> 	       StackBottomShiftDown = 0,
> 	       StackDisplayStyleGapMin = 0,
> 	       StackGapMin = 0,
> 	       StackTopDisplayStyleShiftUp = 0,
> 	       StackTopShiftUp = 0,
> 	       StretchStackBottomShiftDown = 0,
> 	       StretchStackGapAboveMin = 0,
> 	       StretchStackGapBelowMin = 0,
> 	       StretchStackTopShiftUp = 0,
> 	    },
> 	 },
>       -- },
>    },
> }

The return name "lm-asana" is a bit strange. I am not sure if that is 
relevant or not.

Aditya
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: $n\choose k$-issue with OpenType math fonts

[Andreas Harder]

Am 13.03.2011 um 16:51 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2011, Andreas Harder wrote:
> 
>> I'm afraid, I don't get it. Here is what I tried:
>> I copied all stack-relevant values from asana-math.tma and put them in =
>> the return section of the goodies file (like showed in lm-math.lfg). But =
>> even if I set all values to zero, the output remains the same. Im I =
>> doing something wrong?=20
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> return {
>>   name = "lm-asana",
>>   version = "1.00",
>>   comment = "Goodies that complement asana.",
>>   author = "Hans Hagen",
>>   copyright = "ConTeXt development team",
>>   parameters = { -- test values
>>      -- data = {
>> 	 metadata = {
>> 	    math = {
>> 	       StackBottomDisplayStyleShiftDown = 0,
>> 	       StackBottomShiftDown = 0,
>> 	       StackDisplayStyleGapMin = 0,
>> 	       StackGapMin = 0,
>> 	       StackTopDisplayStyleShiftUp = 0,
>> 	       StackTopShiftUp = 0,
>> 	       StretchStackBottomShiftDown = 0,
>> 	       StretchStackGapAboveMin = 0,
>> 	       StretchStackGapBelowMin = 0,
>> 	       StretchStackTopShiftUp = 0,
>> 	    },
>> 	 },
>>      -- },
>>   },
>> }
> 
> The return name "lm-asana" is a bit strange. I am not sure if that is relevant or not.

I think "lm-asana" is right, otherwise compilation ends with " Math error: parameter \Umathquad\displaystyle is not set."

Andreas
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