Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

["H. Özoguz"]

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Hi,

\usemodule[simplefonts]
\setmainfont[AGaramondPro]
\starttext
Amficool
\stoptext

gives an "i" without dot, see attachment. And the letters "i" and "f" 
are curiously bonded.

The second attachment shows the same word written in MS-Word, again with 
Adobe Garamond Pro, without this curiosity. Where this comes from and 
how to fix?

Huseyin

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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 24.04.2013 um 10:39 schrieb H. Özoguz <h.oezoguz@mmnetz.de>:

> Hi,
> 
> \usemodule[simplefonts]
> \setmainfont[AGaramondPro]
> \starttext
> Amficool
> \stoptext
> 
> gives an "i" without dot, see attachment. And the letters "i" and "f" are curiously bonded.
> 
> The second attachment shows the same word written in MS-Word, again with Adobe Garamond Pro, without this curiosity. Where this comes from and how to fix?

This is a ligature [1], you can disable ligatures when you add

  \definefontfeature[default][default][liga=no]

before \setmainfont.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typographic_ligature

Wolfgang
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Peter Münster]

On Wed, Apr 24 2013, H. Özoguz wrote:

> The second attachment shows the same word written in MS-Word, again with Adobe
> Garamond Pro, without this curiosity.

Perhaps a bug in M$-Word...?   ;)

-- 
           Peter
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 24.04.2013 um 11:00 schrieb Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr>:

> On Wed, Apr 24 2013, H. Özoguz wrote:
> 
>> The second attachment shows the same word written in MS-Word, again with Adobe
>> Garamond Pro, without this curiosity.
> 
> Perhaps a bug in M$-Word...?   ;)

Microsoft added support for opentype ligatures in Word 2010 you have to enable it in the options.

http://chris.dziemborowicz.com/blog/2009/05/17/how-to-enable-opentype-ligatures-in-word-2010/

Wolfgang
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Keith J. Schultz]

Hi Wolfgang, All,

First I think it better if ligatures should be off as a default.

Now, to my actual question.
Is there a way in ConText to selectively true certain ligatures on/ff.
for example fl could be on, but fi off. 

I know that I can set up the the editor to do it, or use unicode directly, but
would prefer ConText to do the work.

regards
	Keith.

Am 24.04.2013 um 10:51 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com>:

> 
> Am 24.04.2013 um 10:39 schrieb H. Özoguz <h.oezoguz@mmnetz.de>:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> \usemodule[simplefonts]
>> \setmainfont[AGaramondPro]
>> \starttext
>> Amficool
>> \stoptext
>> 
>> gives an "i" without dot, see attachment. And the letters "i" and "f" are curiously bonded.
>> 
>> The second attachment shows the same word written in MS-Word, again with Adobe Garamond Pro, without this curiosity. Where this comes from and how to fix?
> 
> This is a ligature [1], you can disable ligatures when you add
> 
>  \definefontfeature[default][default][liga=no]
> 
> before \setmainfont.
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typographic_ligature
> 
> Wolfgang

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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 04/25/2013 08:20 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> First I think it better if ligatures should be off as a default.

Then you should not be using any form of TeX. ligatures have been part 
of TeX since its invention (TeXbook, p. 4), and they have been part of 
fine typesetting since Gutenberg. It's a sad consequence of the advent 
of abominations like Microsoft Word that people consider them superfluous.

> Now, to my actual question.
> Is there a way in ConText to selectively true certain ligatures on/ff.
> for example fl could be on, but fi off.
>
> I know that I can set up the the editor to do it, or use unicode directly, but
> would prefer ConText to do the work.
>

Opentype fonts put ligatures into certain groups, so turning fi off 
while keeping fl is a bit difficult. I think you could use a font 
goodies file and put a zero-width empty space between f and i. There's a 
file demo.lfg in the standalone distribution which might be of help.

Thomas

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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Keith J. Schultz]

Hi Thomas,


Am 25.04.2013 um 08:56 schrieb Thomas A. Schmitz <thomas.schmitz@uni-bonn.de>:

> On 04/25/2013 08:20 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>> First I think it better if ligatures should be off as a default.
> 
> Then you should not be using any form of TeX. ligatures have been part of TeX since its invention (TeXbook, p. 4), and they have been part of fine typesetting since Gutenberg. It's a sad consequence of the advent of abominations like Microsoft Word that people consider them superfluous.
	I use XeLaTeX and ConText for it control. I have not touched Word in decades, if possible
	or any other WYSIWYG- system!
	That being said, take a look at the books printed in this day and age. You will find that
	the use ligatures are not that common. 
	For me the fi-ligature, is estranging, as well as other while reading. Others I find very pleasing.
	I do not want to discuss esthetics. I was just expressing my opinion. If the engross of ConText
	users want ligatures as default that is fine with me. 
	On the other side, I believe,  ligatures of off by default in LaTeX, et al. or at least are feature
	is set when the font is loaded. 

> 
>> Now, to my actual question.
>> Is there a way in ConText to selectively true certain ligatures on/ff.
>> for example fl could be on, but fi off.
>> 
>> I know that I can set up the the editor to do it, or use unicode directly, but
>> would prefer ConText to do the work.
>> 
> 
> Opentype fonts put ligatures into certain groups, so turning fi off while keeping fl is a bit difficult. I think you could use a font goodies file and put a zero-width empty space between f and i. There's a file demo.lfg in the standalone distribution which might be of help.
	Thanx, for the pointer! Will look into it.

regards
	Keith.

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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Hans Hagen]

On 4/26/2013 9:41 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
>
>
> Am 25.04.2013 um 08:56 schrieb Thomas A. Schmitz <thomas.schmitz@uni-bonn.de>:
>
>> On 04/25/2013 08:20 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>>> First I think it better if ligatures should be off as a default.
>>
>> Then you should not be using any form of TeX. ligatures have been part of TeX since its invention (TeXbook, p. 4), and they have been part of fine typesetting since Gutenberg. It's a sad consequence of the advent of abominations like Microsoft Word that people consider them superfluous.
> 	I use XeLaTeX and ConText for it control. I have not touched Word in decades, if possible
> 	or any other WYSIWYG- system!
> 	That being said, take a look at the books printed in this day and age. You will find that
> 	the use ligatures are not that common.
> 	For me the fi-ligature, is estranging, as well as other while reading. Others I find very pleasing.
> 	I do not want to discuss esthetics. I was just expressing my opinion. If the engross of ConText
> 	users want ligatures as default that is fine with me.
> 	On the other side, I believe,  ligatures of off by default in LaTeX, et al. or at least are feature
> 	is set when the font is loaded.

I don't know, but as has been said, the defaults in context sort of fit 
in the expectations. We even have some traditional pseudo ligatures like 
-- and --- implemented, also because users expect them.

Anyhow, if you put

\definefontfeature[default][default][liga=no]

in your local cont-sys.mkiv file you will have them off by default.

There are multiple categories of ligatures.


Hans


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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Khaled Hosny]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 09:41:15AM +0200, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> 	On the other side, I believe,  ligatures of off by default in LaTeX, et al. or at least are feature
> 	is set when the font is loaded. 

So you neither use LaTeX nor ConTeXt?
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Keith J. Schultz]

Hi Khaled,

When I used LaTeX last if I had fi in my text that is how it came out!
Using ConTeXt I noticed that fi becomes a ligature, did not like, but it
was not that important. 

Till I decided to start using ConTeXt I had been using XeLaTeX.

regards
	Keith.
 
Am 26.04.2013 um 10:20 schrieb Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>:

> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 09:41:15AM +0200, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>> 	On the other side, I believe,  ligatures of off by default in LaTeX, et al. or at least are feature
>> 	is set when the font is loaded. 
> 
> So you neither use LaTeX nor ConTeXt?

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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Hans Hagen]

On 4/26/2013 2:12 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> Hi Khaled,
>
> When I used LaTeX last if I had fi in my text that is how it came out!
> Using ConTeXt I noticed that fi becomes a ligature, did not like, but it
> was not that important.

also keep in mind that ligatures are language dependent (if the font 
language is set at all)

Hans

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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 04/26/2013 09:41 AM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> I use XeLaTeX and ConText for it control. I have not touched Word in decades, if possible
> 	or any other WYSIWYG- system!
> 	That being said, take a look at the books printed in this day and age. You will find that
> 	the use ligatures are not that common.
> 	For me the fi-ligature, is estranging, as well as other while reading. Others I find very pleasing.
> 	I do not want to discuss esthetics. I was just expressing my opinion. If the engross of ConText
> 	users want ligatures as default that is fine with me.
> 	On the other side, I believe,  ligatures of off by default in LaTeX, et al. or at least are feature
> 	is set when the font is loaded.


Hi Keith,

if you look at the books of decent publishers, you will see that most of 
them still use ligatures (most American university presses, Oxford and 
Cambridge, German publishers such as Reclam etc.) However, many smaller 
publishers don't give a rat's ass about esthetics, and that's where Word 
comes into play: they have their authors deliver their manuscripts as 
Word files and simply typeset from that, more often than not by 
employing some underpaid and untrained "contractors" in India. Cuts 
costs and makes authors do all the work that publishers used to do in 
the olden days... Taking this as the norm is not a good idea.

As to LaTeX: you're wrong, LaTeX is part of the TeX family as is ConTeXt 
and has ligatures. If you set up your fonts correctly in XeLaTeX, you 
get them.

Thomas
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Khaled Hosny]

I don’t know what LaTeX you were using, but LaTeX does not and will not
disable ligatures by default (there isn’t even a way in original TeX to
disable ligatures globally, short of editing TFM files).

Regards,
Khaled

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 02:12:07PM +0200, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> Hi Khaled,
> 
> When I used LaTeX last if I had fi in my text that is how it came out!
> Using ConTeXt I noticed that fi becomes a ligature, did not like, but it
> was not that important. 
> 
> Till I decided to start using ConTeXt I had been using XeLaTeX.
> 
> regards
> 	Keith.
>  
> Am 26.04.2013 um 10:20 schrieb Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 09:41:15AM +0200, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> >> 	On the other side, I believe,  ligatures of off by default in LaTeX, et al. or at least are feature
> >> 	is set when the font is loaded. 
> > 
> > So you neither use LaTeX nor ConTeXt?
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Keith J. Schultz]

Hi Khaled,

to be honest I never noticed them when I was using LaTeX. It might have been
the fonts.

I can live with them being on as a default in ConTeXt and know now how to turn them
off.

regards
	Keith.

Am 26.04.2013 um 20:27 schrieb Khaled Hosny <khaledhosny@eglug.org>:

> I don’t know what LaTeX you were using, but LaTeX does not and will not
> disable ligatures by default (there isn’t even a way in original TeX to
> disable ligatures globally, short of editing TFM files).
> 
> Regards,
> Khaled

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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Keith J. Schultz]

Am 26.04.2013 um 18:43 schrieb "Thomas A. Schmitz" <thomas.schmitz@uni-bonn.de>:

> 
> Hi Keith,
> 
> if you look at the books of decent publishers, you will see that most of them still use ligatures (most American university presses, Oxford and Cambridge, German publishers such as Reclam etc.) However, many smaller publishers don't give a rat's ass about esthetics, and that's where Word comes into play: they have their authors deliver their manuscripts as Word files and simply typeset from that, more often than not by employing some underpaid and untrained "contractors" in India. Cuts costs and makes authors do all the work that publishers used to do in the olden days... Taking this as the norm is not a good idea.
> 
> As to LaTeX: you're wrong, LaTeX is part of the TeX family as is ConTeXt and has ligatures. If you set up your fonts correctly in XeLaTeX, you get them.
> 
Hi Thomas,

I never said that they do not have ligatures. I never said XeLaTeX does not have 
the ability to use them I have read the fontspec manual!

What I do not understand is why you rant to me about Words inabilities! I never mentioned
before you did!! 

It is a shame that when one states an opinion that others dislike or do not agree with one 
is pushed into a corner which had absolutely nothing to do with one post.

For me this discussion has gone far enough.

regards
	Keith



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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Greetings, Keith, Thomas, and all,

On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:43:59 -0600, Thomas A. Schmitz  
<thomas.schmitz@uni-bonn.de> wrote:

> if you look at the books of decent publishers, you will see that most of  
> them still use ligatures (most American university presses, Oxford and  
> Cambridge, German publishers such as Reclam etc.) However, many smaller  
> publishers don't give a rat's ass about esthetics, and that's where Word  
> comes into play: they have their authors deliver their manuscripts as  
> Word files and simply typeset from that, more often than not by  
> employing some underpaid and untrained "contractors" in India. Cuts  
> costs and makes authors do all the work that publishers used to do in  
> the olden days... Taking this as the norm is not a good idea.

The situation Thomas is describing is analogous to what happened 40 years  
ago: When metal-based typesetting started to die out, what came after was  
atrocious but ubiquitous. And that's _exactly_ why Knuth invented TeX!

As a general rule: High-quality typesetting with good fonts and the  
ligatures off is like pouring fine wine into a plastic cup.

Best wishes
Idris
-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 04/26/2013 10:05 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
> I never said that they do not have ligatures. I never said XeLaTeX does not have
> the ability to use them I have read the fontspec manual!

You wrote:

> On the other side, I believe,  ligatures of off by default in LaTeX

which is wrong. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

>
> What I do not understand is why you rant to me about Words inabilities! I never mentioned
> before you did!!

Then read my message again. It is not a "rant." It points out that Word 
is the reason why some people consider ligatures unusual.

>
> It is a shame that when one states an opinion that others dislike or do not agree with one
> is pushed into a corner which had absolutely nothing to do with one post.

You were the one who has been using ConTeXt for a couple of days and 
declares

> First I think it better if ligatures should be off as a default.

As a rule, it is considered good style to gain some knowledge before you 
give such general advice.

> For me this discussion has gone far enough.

Quite so. The words "I was wrong" seem to be a bit difficult for some 
people.

Thomas
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>
> to be honest I never noticed them when I was using LaTeX. It might have been
> the fonts.

Someone had to show me the first ligature years ago and when he did
that, I had to check every single book and document I had at hand to
check if ligatures were really commonly used. I simply couldn't
believe my eyes and the fact that it took me some 15 years of literacy
and a couple of years of using TeX without ever noticing any ligature
anywhere.

I consider this (the fact that one doesn't notice it) part of a good
design. It's similar with kerning: one doesn't notice it until/unless
it's bad. It's similar in the kitchen also. One doesn't notice that
there is salt in food unless there's too little or too much of it
present.

Mojca

PS: if you really hate the ligatures, you can try to help improve this
"interesting" package to handle ligatures (it probably has the most
potential in engines other than XeTeX/LuaTeX because it's a bit more
complicated to turn off the ligatures there):
    http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/serbian-lig
The package defines commands for all the words from a dictionary which
contain letters "fi", for example
    \def\profit{prof\kern 0.03em it\xspace}
    \def\Gadafi{Gadaf\kern 0.03em i\xspace}
% \stopsarcasm
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Hans Hagen]

On 4/26/2013 11:48 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
>>
>> to be honest I never noticed them when I was using LaTeX. It might have been
>> the fonts.
>
> Someone had to show me the first ligature years ago and when he did
> that, I had to check every single book and document I had at hand to
> check if ligatures were really commonly used. I simply couldn't
> believe my eyes and the fact that it took me some 15 years of literacy
> and a couple of years of using TeX without ever noticing any ligature
> anywhere.

ha, and then you started recognizing tex docs by abundant use of frames 
around tables and, emdashes, funny logos with lowered and raised 
characters, and ...

btw, i have something similar with metapost: once you notice how precise 
mp is, you also notice how imprecise most other vector graphics are

> I consider this (the fact that one doesn't notice it) part of a good
> design. It's similar with kerning: one doesn't notice it until/unless
> it's bad. It's similar in the kitchen also. One doesn't notice that

but i assume, as you were involved in lucida ot, that you know that this 
font has no kerns ..

(i remember seeing a monotype type one times that was advertized as 
being very good because it had 4000+ kerning pairs .. on one of those 
expensive sun-workstation typesetting systems that in the meantime 
disappeared)

(already for years i wonder that when printing from firefox etc it looks 
like the kerns are put on the wrong side of the glyphs)

> there is salt in food unless there's too little or too much of it
> present.

the opposite is true for hz and protrusion ... it takes a while to 
believe that tex can do a bad job when these are applied extremely and 
when applied less extreme one doesn't notice so i find myself never 
using it

there's some similarity is discussions about typography and high end 
audio (esp dacs and amps) ... one can go to real extremes but at some 
point wishful thinking enters the equation

honestly ... we cannot guarantee that texies will recognize 100% of the 
texts typeset by tex, given that one uses a non-lm font and non-standard 
layout setup

or: when you see a tex typeset in lm and with some standard latex style 
that has been around for decades, it can trigger an 'ah it looks good' 
felling simply because one *knows* it has been done by tex

nowadays when i read some novel with excessive expansion, inter 
character spacing and whatever, i always doubt it has been done by a 
badly configured in-design or equally bad configured tex

> Mojca
>
> PS: if you really hate the ligatures, you can try to help improve this
> "interesting" package to handle ligatures (it probably has the most
> potential in engines other than XeTeX/LuaTeX because it's a bit more
> complicated to turn off the ligatures there):
>      http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/serbian-lig
> The package defines commands for all the words from a dictionary which
> contain letters "fi", for example
>      \def\profit{prof\kern 0.03em it\xspace}
>      \def\Gadafi{Gadaf\kern 0.03em i\xspace}
> % \stopsarcasm

whow .. it probably dates from the time before we had scripting 
languages that could parse text, although in that time tex's hash 
table/string space was too small to accomodate dictionaries

pdftex has \noligs -)


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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Hans Hagen]

On 4/26/2013 10:17 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

> ...It points out that Word
> is the reason why some people consider ligatures unusual.

thinking of it: one reason why a general purpose word processor used by 
people with no idea about things like ligatures, is that ligatures are 
language dependent, something that is taken care of in opentype, which 
makes me wonder how many users actually use those properties ... it 
would make a nice thread to get some insight into these matters 
(usefulness, demand for more control - like selectively turning them 
off, which is not undoable)

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Khaled Hosny]

On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 12:16:42AM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 4/26/2013 11:48 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 
> >I consider this (the fact that one doesn't notice it) part of a good
> >design. It's similar with kerning: one doesn't notice it until/unless
> >it's bad. It's similar in the kitchen also. One doesn't notice that
> 
> but i assume, as you were involved in lucida ot, that you know that
> this font has no kerns ..

Which shows what an excellent job Bigelow & Holmes did in designing and
spacing the glyphs, and it is also one of the few typefaces that does
not even need f-ligatures :)

> nowadays when i read some novel with excessive expansion, inter
> character spacing and whatever, i always doubt it has been done by a
> badly configured in-design or equally bad configured tex

I have seen a couple of those books with excessive use of expansion,
you notice it at glance and it becomes very irritating, so I now avoid
expansion altogether (the books were in Arabic, so most probably it was
InDesign).

Regards,
Khaled
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Schmitz Thomas A.]

On Apr 27, 2013, at 12:16 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

>> Someone had to show me the first ligature years ago and when he did
>> that, I had to check every single book and document I had at hand to
>> check if ligatures were really commonly used. I simply couldn't
>> believe my eyes and the fact that it took me some 15 years of literacy
>> and a couple of years of using TeX without ever noticing any ligature
>> anywhere.
> 
> ha, and then you started recognizing tex docs by abundant use of frames around tables and, emdashes, funny logos with lowered and raised characters, and ...
> 
> btw, i have something similar with metapost: once you notice how precise mp is, you also notice how imprecise most other vector graphics are
> 
>> I consider this (the fact that one doesn't notice it) part of a good
>> design. It's similar with kerning: one doesn't notice it until/unless
>> it's bad. It's similar in the kitchen also. One doesn't notice that
> 
> but i assume, as you were involved in lucida ot, that you know that this font has no kerns ..
> 
> (i remember seeing a monotype type one times that was advertized as being very good because it had 4000+ kerning pairs .. on one of those expensive sun-workstation typesetting systems that in the meantime disappeared)
> 
> (already for years i wonder that when printing from firefox etc it looks like the kerns are put on the wrong side of the glyphs)

Here's a nice one: http://xkcd.com/1015/ I feel that's what TeX does to you...

Thomas
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 4/26/2013 11:48 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> PS: if you really hate the ligatures, you can try to help improve this
>> "interesting" package to handle ligatures (it probably has the most
>> potential in engines other than XeTeX/LuaTeX because it's a bit more
>> complicated to turn off the ligatures there):
>>      http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/serbian-lig
>> The package defines commands for all the words from a dictionary which
>> contain letters "fi", for example
>>      \def\profit{prof\kern 0.03em it\xspace}
>>      \def\Gadafi{Gadaf\kern 0.03em i\xspace}
>
> whow .. it probably dates from the time before we had scripting languages
> that could parse text, although in that time tex's hash table/string space
> was too small to accomodate dictionaries

No, it's from 2011 and it is part of TeX Live. While many packages are
kicked out of TeX Live (including ConTeXt documentation) for all weird
reasons, not just sloppy licencing, there is no reasonable way to vote
against inclusion of weird packages.

> pdftex has \noligs -)

Try to explain that to the author ...

Mojca
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> thinking of it: one reason why a general purpose word processor used
> by people with no idea about things like ligatures, is that
> ligatures are language dependent

  I don't think that's necessary relevant: the only example I can think
of language-dependent ligatures is fi and ffi for Turkish and other
languages that use the dotless i (ı, U+0131), because removing the dot
on the i would be confusing in that case; but that's really all.  All
other ligatures depend on the font.

  Many Adobe-produced fonts have a special ligatures for Turkish and
some other languages using ı, I suspect because Adobe Font Development
Kit for OpenType has a provision for them.

	Arthur
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Quite so. The words "I was wrong" seem to be a bit difficult for
> some people.

  Yes, it's amazing how to some people "you're wrong" sounds like an
offence, and the explanation of why an outright insult.

	Arthur
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Khaled Hosny]

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 01:28:20PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
> > thinking of it: one reason why a general purpose word processor used
> > by people with no idea about things like ligatures, is that
> > ligatures are language dependent
> 
>   I don't think that's necessary relevant: the only example I can think
> of language-dependent ligatures is fi and ffi for Turkish and other
> languages that use the dotless i (ı, U+0131), because removing the dot
> on the i would be confusing in that case; but that's really all.  All
> other ligatures depend on the font.

The Germans do not like ligatures across compound words, and that is
much harder to do in an automated way (not in fonts themselves at
least).

Regards,
Khaled
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> The Germans do not like ligatures across compound words, and that is
> much harder to do in an automated way (not in fonts themselves at
> least).

  That's a good point, but it's a slightly different issue from
prohibiting some ligatures altogether: in German ligatures should be
disabled depending on context, and that applies to all ligatures that
may be present in the font; while in Turkish some specific ligatures
should never occur at all, but the others are free to go.

  While we're on the subject, and since Thomas mentioned Reclam, I seem
to remember that dtv, another paperback publisher, uses a font with the
relatively rare ligature ft; I don't have any book by them handy at the
moment, but I assume that they do apply the same rule as with the other
ligatures and don't set them across compounds.  That's what I meant by
font-dependent ligatures; maybe I should have written typeface rather
than font.  Clearly you don't want to implement the prohibition of
ligatures across compounds at the font level.

	Arthur (but I have the TeXbook on my way to BachoTeX.  It does
	use ligatures)
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Re: Adobe Garamond Problems with letter combination "fi"

["H. Özoguz"]

Ok thanks, feature, not a bug, embarassing ... but good to learn :)
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