Re: A simple project.

Re: A simple project.

[Dirar BOUGATEF]

I am wiling to do so, but i see that Texlive hasn't changed since 2003, and 
this is already the version i have installed 2 months ago.

Is there a fresher version and does anyone knows the date where Texlive 
structure changed.

Many thanks.

Dirar.

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Now is the time for all... (Was: A simple project.)

[Maurice Diamantini]

Now is the time for all...
   ... non Context user to be able to use ConTeXt without
   becomming TeX expert



Following the remark from Dirar about finding the last texlive
distrib, I think the Context system deserves the right of
being a full independant distribution which can be used independently
from the other standard xTeX distributions (e.g. TeTeX, Texlive, ..)

The mytex system proposed by context is a first step in that direction,
but it require a setup that strongly perturbate a concurent use of 
LaTeX.

So, I propose that besides the standard upgrade cont-tmf.zip for 
context,
Pragma propose à **independant** "context" distribution which :
1 - ***doesn't use*** the standard kpath environment variables
2 - anticipate the addition for new architecture
     (eg. "linux" isn't an architecture name, use "powerpc-linux" 
instead)


What do need ConTeXt for itself ?
1 - an pdfetex (or pdfXXXtex)
2 - some fontes
3 - perl, ruby, tcl, ...
4 - Metapost
5 - the context "TeX macro files"

As ConTeXt does improve much frequently than any standard LaTeX
distribution, I suggest that it is easier to adapt the ConTeXt system
to tetex from time to time (e.g. one time in a year) and becomme free
to change the ConTeXt arborescence following the feeling from Hans.

So that it will always be possible for a LaTeX user to download
a full independant ConTeXt distribution, just source one of the
provided setup.sh or setup.csh files, and run either the standard
texlive old distribution, or its new dowloaded ConTeXt distribution
without conflict.

The objective is to had a line such
source /xxx/context/setup.sh
in my bashrc without worying if I (or other xTeX user) have to do
either LaTeX or ConTeXt writing.




Le 17 nov. 04, à 00:57, Dirar BOUGATEF a écrit :

> I am wiling to do so, but i see that Texlive hasn't changed since 
> 2003, and this is already the version i have installed 2 months ago.
>
> Is there a fresher version and does anyone knows the date where 
> Texlive structure changed.

I second this question.
I look for the texlive2004 too, but didn't found it.

-- Maurice Diamantini

Re: Now is the time for all... (Was: A simple project.)

[Taco Hoekwater]

Maurice Diamantini wrote:

> So, I propose that besides the standard upgrade cont-tmf.zip for context,
> Pragma propose à **independant** "context" distribution which :
> 1 - ***doesn't use*** the standard kpath environment variables

This is the main item, because this requirement implies using non-standard 
executables. I agree with you that such a distribution would be a great 
thing to have, but unless some people are actually willing to invest (a 
fairly large amount of time) in it, it is simply not going to happen.

I have started a project last spring, whose goal is to deliver almost 
precisely a "standalone, fast and idiot-proof distribution of ConTeXt", but 
it has been a one person affair so far, and I do not have unlimited time to 
spend on it. Anyway, have a look at

	http://www.metatex.org

Greetings, Taco

Re: Now is the time for all... (Was: A simple project.)

[Maurice Diamantini]

Le 17 nov. 04, à 10:19, Taco Hoekwater a écrit :

> Maurice Diamantini wrote:
>
>> So, I propose that besides the standard upgrade cont-tmf.zip for 
>> context,
>> Pragma propose à **independant** "context" distribution which :
>> 1 - ***doesn't use*** the standard kpath environment variables
>
> This is the main item, because this requirement implies using 
> non-standard executables. I agree with you that such a distribution 
> would be a great thing to have, but unless some people are actually 
> willing to invest (a fairly large amount of time) in it, it is simply 
> not going to happen.

Hum, I thought it would be possible to just change the name of the
environment variable used be the kpsea system.
But if these names are hard coded, perhaps it is still possible to patch
the source for all the external tools used by context and relying
on kpathsea.
I suppose that Hans could do a "contextize" perl script which automatise
this transformation from the standard tools archives.


> I have started a project last spring, whose goal is to deliver almost 
> precisely a "standalone, fast and idiot-proof distribution of 
> ConTeXt", but it has been a one person affair so far, and I do not 
> have unlimited time to spend on it. Anyway, have a look at
>
> 	http://www.metatex.org


Woaow!
This is very ambitious ! You are redoing the full tex envirenment!
If you realy want to do that, you should:
- first create a contributing information system (as the wiki context 
:-)
- create an open source project on sourceforge or something like that,
   (this mean mailing lists, cvs access, ...)
- and then call for a partitipation on comp.text.tex group.
I sure there is several TeX guru interested.

This project is much more that what I asked for!

Cordialement,
Maurice

Re: Now is the time for all... (Was: A simple project.)

[Hans Hagen]

Maurice Diamantini wrote:

> So that it will always be possible for a LaTeX user to download
> a full independant ConTeXt distribution, just source one of the
> provided setup.sh or setup.csh files, and run either the standard
> texlive old distribution, or its new dowloaded ConTeXt distribution
> without conflict.
> 
> The objective is to had a line such
> source /xxx/context/setup.sh
> in my bashrc without worying if I (or other xTeX user) have to do
> either LaTeX or ConTeXt writing.

Actually there has been something like that for a long time -)

- when a new tex live comes out, i remove my old texmf tree and copy the texlive 
one to my disk (ok, for the next one i need to copy both texmf and texmf-dist to 
texmf on my disk)
- this will then include a version of context
- alongside i keep texmf-local and a few more (which has the beta context and such)

if you do

rsync -v www.pragma-pod.com::

you will get all the trees that you can download

because i seperate things in trees, there is no danger in clashes with existing 
stuff; also, the setup scripts set all variables in a defensive way, so that 
there will be no clash with other distributions (that way i can also keep 
several project trees with older context versions available); the reason for 
using architectre paths is that it permits me to have out of sync binaries which 
means different pool files and formats)

Hans



-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Now is the time for all... (Was: A simple project.)

[Maurice Diamantini]

Le 17 nov. 04, à 11:53, Hans Hagen a écrit :

> Maurice Diamantini wrote:
>
>> The objective is to had a line such
>> source /xxx/context/setup.sh
>> in my bashrc without worying if I (or other xTeX user) have to do
>> either LaTeX or ConTeXt writing.
>
> Actually there has been something like that for a long time -)
>
> - when a new tex live comes out, i remove my old texmf tree and copy 
> the texlive one to my disk (ok, for the next one i need to copy both 
> texmf and texmf-dist to texmf on my disk)

A new standard tex dist is always relatively easy to install
(tetex or texlive)...

> - this will then include a version of context

... And there is a (old) version of context include.
But it is that way I'm using context today.
So far so good.
And I can personnalised my LaTeX distribution by using the
HOMETEXMF environment variable.


> - alongside i keep texmf-local and a few more (which has the beta
> context and such)

My problem (as a NOT guru xyzTeX administrator !) is precisely that
I have trouble in using a separate cont-tmf distribution in my own
tex tree (trouble with creating the formats).
i suppose I have to more investigate in this direction.

What I'm looking for, is a mean to use:
- my one cont-tmf uptodate tree, possibly with some "near standard"
   contrib addition (read "soon to be include in the standard Context
   distrib" e.g. t-bib, t-nath ;-)
- some personnal environnement variables (HOMETEXMF, or better:
   CONTEXT_HOME)
togother with any ***full standard LaTeX distribution*** wich I haven't
installed myself on a workstation I don't administre myself (read "in 
hostile
environment" :-). I only master my home directory.

If I have to modify the texlive distribution (or a configuration
file from). Then it is no more a standard texlive distrib.

So the two possibilities I envisage are:

1 - managing a separate context tree package in an hostile environment
     (the prefered solution if robust)

2 - manage a separate full context system.
     It's probable the easier way to go. And for less than 100 Mbytes
     it is no much more heavy than the simple con-tmf plus the format.
     Also, if I can do a multiplatform (powerpc-darwin, x86-linux, ...)
     non intrusive (with concurrent LaTeX distribution),
     I'll can make it installed everywere (around me).

     I have yet to solve some confict in my environnement (because
     for sample the context-live setup **cleer** all environment variable
     which concerne LaTeX, kpath, and other HOMETEXMF variable.

This second item was the main objective of this thread "Now is the 
time..".
I think the work is almost done with the minimal context-live
distribution. It need just some setup adjust.

> if you do
>
>    rsync -v www.pragma-pod.com::
>
> you will get all the trees that you can download

This doen't work at work because of a firewall.
I tried to use the option "-e ssh" which could work
if you had a secure shell demond enabled.
But it doesn't seem to!

The a try this night at home (with free.fr)
   rsync -av  www.pragma-pod.com::all  pragma-context-all
And it worked! (590 Moctets)

So this week-end, I have to retry to solve the setup problems.

> because i seperate things in trees, there is no danger in clashes with 
> existing stuff; also, the setup scripts set all variables in a 
> defensive way,
> so that there will be no clash with other distributions (that way i 
> can also keep several project trees with older context versions 
> available);

It a defensive way for ConTeXt user, not for LaTeX user.

> the reason for using architectre paths is that it permits me to have 
> out of sync binaries which means different pool files and formats)

\startLaughingMode

I agree that multi-architecture is needed, but the problem with
P.C users is that there is only two architecture in the world (;-)
1 - Windows
2 - the others

The most advanced pc users know also about "linux" and even "linux-64"
but an architecture is a combination between some hard  (sparc, powerpc,
x86, 64-x86) and some "operating system" (linux, bsd, sunos, cygwin,
darwin, )
This principle is very flexible, and support even "inoperating system'
(dos, dos++, windose95, windose95.2, macosClone, ...)

\stopLaughingMode

The best way to get an idea on how to deal which multi-architecture
is to look at the config.guess and config.sub from gnu configure
system (which seems used by the texlive distribution).
Context need not support all the architecture combination, but should
support the standard architecture system.

Here are some examples of a binary tree:
  alpha-linux
  i386-linux
  i386-openbsd -> i386-openbsd3.3
  i386-openbsd3.3
  powerpc-aix -> powerpc-aix4.3.3.0
  powerpc-aix4.3.3.0
  powerpc-darwin -> powerpc-darwin6.6
  powerpc-darwin6.6
  sparc-solaris -> sparc-solaris2.7
  sparc-solaris2.7
  sparc64-linux
  win32
  win32-static

I have a script I use for shoosing between a few architecture.
I can be be update for adapting to the supported ConTeXt binaries
arctitecture.

     http://www.ensta.fr/~diam/pub/guessarch/

All my configure scripts use set privaded string
e.g.
     # CONTEXT_HOME can be guessed from this script if not provided
     # by the user.
	CONTEXT_ARCH=`context-guessarch`
     PATH="$CONTEXT_HOME/bin/$CONTEXT_ARCH/:$PATH"

--
Maurice Diamantini