spacing before items

spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

[-- Attachment #1.1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1659 bytes --]

Hello list,

Another very simple issue-no doubt the answer is right in front of me but I can't find it or figure it out...
(Please let me know where it is!)

I want more space before each top-level item.  MWE:

\defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
     \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n]
     \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=), stopper=]


\starttext

\startsection{First Section}

\startmdshw
     \item Choose the correct answer.
          \startmdshw
          \item This one
          \item This one
          \item This one
          \stopmdshw

     \item Choose the correct answer.
          \startmdshw
          \item This one
          \item This one
          \item This one
          \stopmdshw

     \item Choose the correct answer.
          \startmdshw
          \item This one
          \item This one
          \item This one
          \stopmdshw

\startmdshw

\stoptext


THANK YOU!!

Mike Cooper
Technical Trainer
Murchison Drilling Schools, Inc.
2501 Juan Tabo NE
Albuquerque, NM 87112
Tel: (505) 293-6271
Fax: (505) 298-5294
Email: mike@murchisondrillingschools.com<mailto:mike@murchisondrillingschools.com>
Website: www.murchisondrillingschools.com<http://www.murchisondrillingschools.com/>
[cid:image007.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850]<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Murchison-Drilling-Schools/158018484232622>  [cid:image008.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850] <http://www.linkedin.com/company/murchison-drilling-schools-inc->   [cid:image009.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850] <https://twitter.com/trainingmds>
Murchison Drilling Schools is now part of
[cid:image001.png@01D63515.857FD120]


[-- Attachment #1.1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 42515 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #1.2: image001.jpg --]
[-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 812 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #1.3: image002.jpg --]
[-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 951 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #1.4: image003.jpg --]
[-- Type: image/jpeg, Size: 937 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #1.5: image004.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 9100 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Mike Cooper schrieb am 16.06.2020 um 19:51:
> Hello list,
> 
> Another very simple issue—no doubt the answer is right in front of me 
> but I can’t find it or figure it out…
> 
> (Please let me know where it is!)
> 
> I want more space before each top-level item.MWE:
> 
> \defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
> 
> \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n]
> 
> \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=), stopper=]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \startsection{First Section}

\startsection[title={...}]


The first entry uses the "before" value while inner entries use "inbetween".

\starttext

\setupitemgroup
   [itemize][1]
   [   before={\endgraf{\ttbf    [before]}\endgraf},
    inbetween={\endgraf{\ttbf [inbetween]}\endgraf},
        after={\endgraf{\ttbf     [after]}\endgraf}]

\startitemize
     \startitem Choose the correct answer.
         \startitemize
         \item This one
         \item This one
         \stopitemize
     \stopitem
     \startitem Choose the correct answer.
         \startitemize
         \item This one
         \item This one
         \stopitemize
     \stopitem
\stopitemize

\stoptext

Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Tomas Hala]

Hi Mike,

\setupitemgroup[youritems][1][inbetween={\blank[5*big]}]
could help you.

Best wishes,

Tomáš


Tue, Jun 16, 2020 ve 05:51:20PM +0000 Mike Cooper napsal(a):
#    Link: [1]File-List
#    Link: [2]Edit-Time-Data
# 
#    Hello list,
# 
#     
# 
#    Another very simple issue—no doubt the answer is right in front of me but
#    I can’t find it or figure it out… 
# 
#    (Please let me know where it is!)
# 
#     
# 
#    I want more space before each top-level item.  MWE:
# 
#     
# 
#    \defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
# 
#         \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n]
# 
#         \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=),
#    stopper=]
# 
#     
# 
#     
# 
#    \starttext
# 
#     
# 
#    \startsection{First Section}
# 
#     
# 
#    \startmdshw
# 
#         \item Choose the correct answer.
# 
#              \startmdshw
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \stopmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#         \item Choose the correct answer.
# 
#              \startmdshw
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \stopmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#         \item Choose the correct answer.
# 
#              \startmdshw
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \stopmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#    \startmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#    \stoptext
# 
#     
# 
#     
# 
#    THANK YOU!!
# 
#     
# 
#    Mike Cooper
# 
#    Technical Trainer
# 
#    Murchison Drilling Schools, Inc.
# 
#    2501 Juan Tabo NE
# 
#    Albuquerque, NM 87112
# 
#    Tel: (505) 293-6271
# 
#    Fax: (505) 298-5294
# 
#    Email: [3]mike@murchisondrillingschools.com
# 
#    Website: [4]www.murchisondrillingschools.com
# 
#    [5]cid:image007.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850  [6]cid:image008.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850  [7]cid:image009.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850
# 
#    Murchison Drilling Schools is now part of
# 
#    [8]cid:image001.png@01D63515.857FD120
# 
#     
# 
# References
# 
#    Visible links
#    1. file:///home/thala/.mutt-tmp/cid:filelist.xml@01D643D4.723482A0
#    2. file:///home/thala/.mutt-tmp/cid:editdata.mso
#    3. mailto:mike@murchisondrillingschools.com
#    4. http://www.murchisondrillingschools.com/
#    5. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Murchison-Drilling-Schools/158018484232622
#    6. http://www.linkedin.com/company/murchison-drilling-schools-inc-
#    7. https://twitter.com/trainingmds






# ___________________________________________________________________________________
# If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
# 
# maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
# webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
# archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
# wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
# ___________________________________________________________________________________


                                         Tomáš Hála
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mendelova univerzita, Provozně ekonomická fakulta, ústav informatiky
Zemědělská 1, CZ-613 00 Brno,  tel. +420 545 13 22 28
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://akela.mendelu.cz/~thala
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

Thanks Wolfgang!

1. Where can this solution be found?  (wiki or elsewhere)

2. I'm guessing that you're saying that my \startsection should have [title={...}] instead of what I gave?



-----Original Message-----
From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schuster
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 PM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items

Mike Cooper schrieb am 16.06.2020 um 19:51:
> Hello list,
> 
> Another very simple issue—no doubt the answer is right in front of me 
> but I can’t find it or figure it out…
> 
> (Please let me know where it is!)
> 
> I want more space before each top-level item.MWE:
> 
> \defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
> 
> \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n]
> 
> \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=), stopper=]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \startsection{First Section}

\startsection[title={...}]


The first entry uses the "before" value while inner entries use "inbetween".

\starttext

\setupitemgroup
   [itemize][1]
   [   before={\endgraf{\ttbf    [before]}\endgraf},
    inbetween={\endgraf{\ttbf [inbetween]}\endgraf},
        after={\endgraf{\ttbf     [after]}\endgraf}]

\startitemize
     \startitem Choose the correct answer.
         \startitemize
         \item This one
         \item This one
         \stopitemize
     \stopitem
     \startitem Choose the correct answer.
         \startitemize
         \item This one
         \item This one
         \stopitemize
     \stopitem
\stopitemize

\stoptext

Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

Thanks Tomáš!

1.  Where can this solution be found?

2.  This solution also adds space between the top-level and second-level lists...  
     I only want some visual separation between the top-level chunks.

Thanks!



-----Original Message-----
From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Tomas Hala
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:18 PM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items

Hi Mike,

\setupitemgroup[youritems][1][inbetween={\blank[5*big]}]
could help you.

Best wishes,

Tomáš


Tue, Jun 16, 2020 ve 05:51:20PM +0000 Mike Cooper napsal(a):
#    Link: [1]File-List
#    Link: [2]Edit-Time-Data
# 
#    Hello list,
# 
#     
# 
#    Another very simple issue—no doubt the answer is right in front of me but
#    I can’t find it or figure it out… 
# 
#    (Please let me know where it is!)
# 
#     
# 
#    I want more space before each top-level item.  MWE:
# 
#     
# 
#    \defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
# 
#         \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n]
# 
#         \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=),
#    stopper=]
# 
#     
# 
#     
# 
#    \starttext
# 
#     
# 
#    \startsection{First Section}
# 
#     
# 
#    \startmdshw
# 
#         \item Choose the correct answer.
# 
#              \startmdshw
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \stopmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#         \item Choose the correct answer.
# 
#              \startmdshw
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \stopmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#         \item Choose the correct answer.
# 
#              \startmdshw
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \item This one
# 
#              \stopmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#    \startmdshw
# 
#     
# 
#    \stoptext
# 
#     
# 
#     
# 
#    THANK YOU!!
# 
#     
# 
#    Mike Cooper
# 
#    Technical Trainer
# 
#    Murchison Drilling Schools, Inc.
# 
#    2501 Juan Tabo NE
# 
#    Albuquerque, NM 87112
# 
#    Tel: (505) 293-6271
# 
#    Fax: (505) 298-5294
# 
#    Email: [3]mike@murchisondrillingschools.com
# 
#    Website: [4]www.murchisondrillingschools.com
# 
#    [5]cid:image007.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850  [6]cid:image008.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850  [7]cid:image009.jpg@01D03ADC.BD6E6850
# 
#    Murchison Drilling Schools is now part of
# 
#    [8]cid:image001.png@01D63515.857FD120
# 
#     
# 
# References
# 
#    Visible links
#    1. file:///home/thala/.mutt-tmp/cid:filelist.xml@01D643D4.723482A0
#    2. file:///home/thala/.mutt-tmp/cid:editdata.mso
#    3. mailto:mike@murchisondrillingschools.com
#    4. http://www.murchisondrillingschools.com/
#    5. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Murchison-Drilling-Schools/158018484232622
#    6. http://www.linkedin.com/company/murchison-drilling-schools-inc-
#    7. https://twitter.com/trainingmds






# ___________________________________________________________________________________
# If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
# 
# maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
# webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
# archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
# wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
# ___________________________________________________________________________________


                                         Tomáš Hála
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Mendelova univerzita, Provozně ekonomická fakulta, ústav informatiky
Zemědělská 1, CZ-613 00 Brno,  tel. +420 545 13 22 28
--------------------------------------------------------------------
http://akela.mendelu.cz/~thala
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

I really should have fiddled with this before thanking you, Wolfgang.  I was focused on catching up on email etc. this morning.

Thanks for trying though!

Your "answer" is pretty much coded code to me.  I don't understand it and don't have the first notion of how to implement it in my file.  For one thing,  I have no clue what "ttbf" means.  Can't find it on the wiki or in the manuals.  Google says it's the Texas Teen Book Festival but I'm guessing that ain't it.  ???

Thanks anyway!



-----Original Message-----
From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schuster
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 1:14 PM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items

Mike Cooper schrieb am 16.06.2020 um 19:51:
> Hello list,
> 
> Another very simple issue—no doubt the answer is right in front of me 
> but I can’t find it or figure it out…
> 
> (Please let me know where it is!)
> 
> I want more space before each top-level item.MWE:
> 
> \defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
> 
> \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n]
> 
> \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=), stopper=]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \startsection{First Section}

\startsection[title={...}]


The first entry uses the "before" value while inner entries use "inbetween".

\starttext

\setupitemgroup
   [itemize][1]
   [   before={\endgraf{\ttbf    [before]}\endgraf},
    inbetween={\endgraf{\ttbf [inbetween]}\endgraf},
        after={\endgraf{\ttbf     [after]}\endgraf}]

\startitemize
     \startitem Choose the correct answer.
         \startitemize
         \item This one
         \item This one
         \stopitemize
     \stopitem
     \startitem Choose the correct answer.
         \startitemize
         \item This one
         \item This one
         \stopitemize
     \stopitem
\stopitemize

\stoptext

Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 17.06.2020 um 21:50 schrieb Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com>:
> 
> For one thing,  I have no clue what "ttbf" means.  Can't find it on the wiki or in the manuals.  Google says it's the Texas Teen Book Festival but I'm guessing that ain't it.  ???

Did you try it?

(Hint: There’s \tt and \bf ...)

HR
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

Yes, I did try it.  It put "[before]" (in ttbf (thanks for the hint!)) on the previously blank line before the first top-level item.  And it put "[inbetween]" in the other previously blank lines between both level of items, and "[after]" into the previously blank line after the last item.  

Spacing was not affected at all, only mysterious words in square brackets showed up in the output.

??


-----Original Message-----
From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Henning Hraban Ramm
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 2:27 PM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items



> Am 17.06.2020 um 21:50 schrieb Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com>:
> 
> For one thing,  I have no clue what "ttbf" means.  Can't find it on the wiki or in the manuals.  Google says it's the Texas Teen Book Festival but I'm guessing that ain't it.  ???

Did you try it?

(Hint: There’s \tt and \bf ...)

HR
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Mike Cooper schrieb am 17.06.2020 um 21:50:
> I really should have fiddled with this before thanking you, Wolfgang.  I was focused on catching up on email etc. this morning.
> 
> Thanks for trying though!
> 
> Your "answer" is pretty much coded code to me.  I don't understand it and don't have the first notion of how to implement it in my file.  For one thing,  I have no clue what "ttbf" means.  Can't find it on the wiki or in the manuals.  Google says it's the Texas Teen Book Festival but I'm guessing that ain't it.  ???

My example shows which key is used for which space around each item.

To insert vertical space you have to use the \blank command and set a 
value in the optional argument, e.g. \blank[1cm].

To insert now a space of 1cm before the first item you need the "before" 
key with \blank as argument:

     \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][before={\blank[1cm]}]

Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

OK.  I'm not sure how I'm supposed to guess that.  I am a rank beginner and while there are breakthroughs now and then, frustration is still the main thing I experience trying to learn/use ConTeXt...

In any case, my original question is still not solved.  The before/inbetween keys add space everywhere.  I only want space between top-level items.  

Here is something like what I need, with the spacing exaggerated:


1.  Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… 
What’s the answer?

a. An answer that may well wrap onto a second or even third line but is usually half a line or less.
b. By the time the data has been accurately analyzed, critical failure has already occurred.
c. Seven bands must be hired to adequately bring the funk.



2.  Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario.
What’s the correct action to take?

a. Create a spreadsheet which compiles the salient data into a logical order/layout, perform calculations and analysis then search the internet for a solution.
b. Immediately report the data to the supervisory team.
c. File the data in the relevant, appropriate locations, complete a standardized company report form, notify all vested parties, raise the flags, abandon ship.



3.  Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same.
What would you do?

a. Run
b. Walk
c. Crawl


I want the top-level chunks to be visually separated for better readability, etc.



-----Original Message-----
From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schuster
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 2:45 PM
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items

Mike Cooper schrieb am 17.06.2020 um 21:50:
> I really should have fiddled with this before thanking you, Wolfgang.  I was focused on catching up on email etc. this morning.
> 
> Thanks for trying though!
> 
> Your "answer" is pretty much coded code to me.  I don't understand it and don't have the first notion of how to implement it in my file.  For one thing,  I have no clue what "ttbf" means.  Can't find it on the wiki or in the manuals.  Google says it's the Texas Teen Book Festival but I'm guessing that ain't it.  ???

My example shows which key is used for which space around each item.

To insert vertical space you have to use the \blank command and set a 
value in the optional argument, e.g. \blank[1cm].

To insert now a space of 1cm before the first item you need the "before" 
key with \blank as argument:

     \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][before={\blank[1cm]}]

Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/17/2020 11:03 PM, Mike Cooper wrote:
> OK.  I'm not sure how I'm supposed to guess that.  I am a rank beginner and while there are breakthroughs now and then, frustration is still the main thing I experience trying to learn/use ConTeXt...
> 
> In any case, my original question is still not solved.  The before/inbetween keys add space everywhere.  I only want space between top-level items.
> 
> Here is something like what I need, with the spacing exaggerated:
> 
> 
> 1.  Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question… Multi-line, involved question…
> What’s the answer?
> 
> a. An answer that may well wrap onto a second or even third line but is usually half a line or less.
> b. By the time the data has been accurately analyzed, critical failure has already occurred.
> c. Seven bands must be hired to adequately bring the funk.
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario. Another question with detailed data and information and scenario.
> What’s the correct action to take?
> 
> a. Create a spreadsheet which compiles the salient data into a logical order/layout, perform calculations and analysis then search the internet for a solution.
> b. Immediately report the data to the supervisory team.
> c. File the data in the relevant, appropriate locations, complete a standardized company report form, notify all vested parties, raise the flags, abandon ship.
> 
> 
> 
> 3.  Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same. Yet another of the same.
> What would you do?
> 
> a. Run
> b. Walk
> c. Crawl
> 
> 
> I want the top-level chunks to be visually separated for better readability, etc.

\defineenumeration
   [question]
   [text=,
    alternative=serried,
    distance=1em,
    width=fit,
    before={\testpage[4]\blank[3*big]},
    after={\blank}]

\starttext

\dorecurse{10}{
     \startquestion
         \input ward
     \stopquestion

     \startitemize[packed,a]
         \startitem \input ward \stopitem
         \startitem \input ward \stopitem
         \startitem \input ward \stopitem
     \stopitemize
}

\stoptext


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schuster
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 2:45 PM
> To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items
> 
> Mike Cooper schrieb am 17.06.2020 um 21:50:
>> I really should have fiddled with this before thanking you, Wolfgang.  I was focused on catching up on email etc. this morning.
>>
>> Thanks for trying though!
>>
>> Your "answer" is pretty much coded code to me.  I don't understand it and don't have the first notion of how to implement it in my file.  For one thing,  I have no clue what "ttbf" means.  Can't find it on the wiki or in the manuals.  Google says it's the Texas Teen Book Festival but I'm guessing that ain't it.  ???
> 
> My example shows which key is used for which space around each item.
> 
> To insert vertical space you have to use the \blank command and set a
> value in the optional argument, e.g. \blank[1cm].
> 
> To insert now a space of 1cm before the first item you need the "before"
> key with \blank as argument:
> 
>       \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][before={\blank[1cm]}]
> 
> Wolfgang
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[David Rogers]

Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com> writes:

> Thanks Tomáš!
>
> 1.  Where can this solution be found?


Mike, I know how you feel. The reasons that the documentation is 
so sparse and difficult to find are the same reasons behind a lot 
of things: time, money, and ability. Good documentation requires 
all three of those things to be brought together at the same time. 
Some people reading and responding here have two out of the three, 
but it's rare to find someone who has all three at the same time.

On second thought, there are at least five things required: time, 
money, ability, desire, and a workable plan. And with ConTeXt 
being developed by a relatively tiny group, even if a brilliant 
and kind organizer came along and said "I want excellent 
documentation for ConTeXt, and I'll pay a fortune to the person 
who knows how to write it - see, here's the money" - there's no 
way of guaranteeing that someone would actually take the offer.

-- 
David
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: On Behalf Of David Rogers
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 3:18 PM
>
> 
> Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com> writes:
> 
> > Thanks Tomáš!
> >
> > 1.  Where can this solution be found?
> 
> 
> Mike, I know how you feel. The reasons that the documentation is
> so sparse and difficult to find are the same reasons behind a lot
> of things: time, money, and ability. Good documentation requires
> all three of those things to be brought together at the same time.
> Some people reading and responding here have two out of the three,
> but it's rare to find someone who has all three at the same time.
> 
> On second thought, there are at least five things required: time,
> money, ability, desire, and a workable plan. And with ConTeXt
> being developed by a relatively tiny group, even if a brilliant
> and kind organizer came along and said "I want excellent
> documentation for ConTeXt, and I'll pay a fortune to the person
> who knows how to write it - see, here's the money" - there's no
> way of guaranteeing that someone would actually take the offer.
> 
> --
> David


Thanks David!

I don't think I've ever been quite so frustrated at trying to learn anything else in my life!  If it wasn't required by my job, I wouldn't have made it past the first day or two (3 months ago).  But I'm slogging away and it's gradually coming together (I think).  I spent my whole day yesterday figuring out how to do some very basic formatting/layout that would have taken 5-10 minutes in Word or HTML/CSS.

People have been very helpful and patient with me!!  Thanks to all of you for that!

And thanks David for this explanation of the situation.

regards,
Mike

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/24/2020 12:00 AM, Mike Cooper wrote:
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: On Behalf Of David Rogers
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 3:18 PM
>>
>>
>> Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com> writes:
>>
>>> Thanks Tomáš!
>>>
>>> 1.  Where can this solution be found?
>>
>>
>> Mike, I know how you feel. The reasons that the documentation is
>> so sparse and difficult to find are the same reasons behind a lot
>> of things: time, money, and ability. Good documentation requires
>> all three of those things to be brought together at the same time.
>> Some people reading and responding here have two out of the three,
>> but it's rare to find someone who has all three at the same time.
>>
>> On second thought, there are at least five things required: time,
>> money, ability, desire, and a workable plan. And with ConTeXt
>> being developed by a relatively tiny group, even if a brilliant
>> and kind organizer came along and said "I want excellent
>> documentation for ConTeXt, and I'll pay a fortune to the person
>> who knows how to write it - see, here's the money" - there's no
>> way of guaranteeing that someone would actually take the offer.

 >> David

Indeed. It's all volunteer work that doesn't pay the bills. Sitting down 
and starting to write a big manual simply doesn't pay off so it has to 
happen in free time. And that being the case, it is more attactive to 
work on some new challenge.

Concerning manuals: I sometimes wonder if they are really read. So, how 
to set up one that works for all, build up explanations, etc ... isn't 
it more about googling a solution nowadays (ok, not entirely true i 
guess, as one then has to learn how to distinguish the wrong solutions 
from the good, but i suppose one can just test it).

It has been said before: one can have manuals, wikis, mailing lists, 
journals ... once they cross the beginners level they also become large 
and hard to navigate. One can have 'beginners' and 'advanced' but who 
wants to be a 'beginner' ... when is the line crossed. Maybe on the wiky 
we should actually have that distinction.

> Thanks David!
> 
> I don't think I've ever been quite so frustrated at trying to learn anything else in my life!  If it wasn't required by my job, I wouldn't have made it past the first day or two (3 months ago).  But I'm slogging away and it's gradually coming together (I think).  I spent my whole day yesterday figuring out how to do some very basic formatting/layout that would have taken 5-10 minutes in Word or HTML/CSS.
> 
> People have been very helpful and patient with me!!  Thanks to all of you for that!

Let me challenge you: how would your solution translate to a wiki page 
for a beginner with the sam eproblem to solve ... content but also the 
'how to get there aspect'

> And thanks David for this explanation of the situation.
There are a couple of things that you need to keep in mind when you 
start with something like context:

- you often bring with your experience (and exposure) to different 
systems and these don't translate; recently i was playing with some css 
setup for a rather complex xml -> html mapping and things that would 
have taken me 5 minutes in tex costs me plenty of time in css due to all 
kind of interactions; just as with tex, one can end up with hacks found 
on the web (it was hobyism of course)

- often one starts using something like tex in order to do something 
that is not really 'beginners' stuff (cue: always test something new or 
explore a command in a one page small test file!) .. the extremes are: i 
do this complex book layout in 'indesign' (manual work) but how can i do 
it (fully automatic) in tex (and i have to have it running next week) 
and btw, i have xml inout that has flaws

- in typesetting all kind of mechanisms are involved, it's an ecosystem 
and all can work with all and interfere with all ... comparing with 
word/css is a bit tricky as tex systems are meant for automatic flows 
(with of course local tuning but then we enter 
what-you-program-is-what-you-get) and dtp is klick and point and choices 
on the spot .. i think one can safely say that tex has a longer learning 
curve but that gets compensated in the end (it compares to typing: who 
takes a few week typing course in order to benefit later ... most start 
with two fingers and do that their whole live) .. tex has been qualified 
as a live-long toolkit: it takes a while but after that you use if your 
whole live (which is posisble because it stays around)

- if one is happy with word and it does what it does better and faster 
.. don't use tex; i admit that i never used word but then, i never had 
to make documents of that kind (just like i alway suse metapost and 
never used a drawing program as i never needed that kind of graphics)

- in context you need to think rather minimalistic: most styles can 
actually be rather small once you realize that a lot of configuration 
keys are similar (there is no need to document 'before' or 'style' with 
each comand ... most beginners styles have too much code

- in addition to manuals (the ones that i write are often around some 
specific mechanism and they only make sense then when you need something 
like that) there is suite of small test files .. one can learn from that 
too i think

- a lot of solutions in the end converge to a similar investment of time 
independent of the tools ... of course the kind of solutions and 
satisfaction can differ

Hans

ps. With context having lua on board: i often see lua code that 'just 
does the job' but is not really good code. The thing is that in a 
programming language one can just keep adding lines to deal with 
exceptions or corner cases for that solution. The code doesn't have to 
work with other code and so that doesn't hurt. If it runs slower? Fine. 
TeX is different, you can add some lines of code and a month later 
someone elses document can come out weird (e.g. around a page break). 
Fix a font and ... there is no simple solution for that. The problem is 
that 'slower code' doesn't hurt but seeing different output' does.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Hans Hagen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 12:50 AM
> To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items
> 
> On 6/24/2020 12:00 AM, Mike Cooper wrote:
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: On Behalf Of David Rogers
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 3:18 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> Thanks Tomáš!
> >>>
> >>> 1.  Where can this solution be found?
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike, I know how you feel. 
> 
>  >> David
> 
> Indeed. It's all volunteer work that doesn't pay the bills. Sitting down
> and starting to write a big manual simply doesn't pay off so it has to
> happen in free time. And that being the case, it is more attactive to
> work on some new challenge.
> 
> Concerning manuals: I sometimes wonder if they are really read. So, how
> to set up one that works for all, build up explanations, etc ... isn't
> it more about googling a solution nowadays (ok, not entirely true i
> guess, as one then has to learn how to distinguish the wrong solutions
> from the good, but i suppose one can just test it).

I started out maybe a little bit hodge-podge, looking through some documentation recommended to me.  The basic concept is very straightforward.  No problem.  But implementation has been extremely challenging (but it's probably just me!).  Then I was pointed to Henri Menke's "Definitive Guide" post.  I read the entire Excursion (though I confess I did not *practice* as I went along (partly because SciTe was such a pain)).  The Excursion is not for (true) beginners.  And, no offense, but I thought it was poorly typeset as well...

Then I went through Aditya's "amazing tutorial" (mostly with a good bit of help from Aditya just to be able to get started!) and definitely learned more.  But at the end I felt like it was mostly an exercise in "slow-motion copy/paste" (I retyped all the code).  Of course, when I got the code right, I got the intended output.  I did fiddle with options a little bit as I went.  No doubt, I should have done more.  There was too much of what I had "successfully" done that I still didn't really understand at the end of it.


> 
> It has been said before: one can have manuals, wikis, mailing lists,
> journals ... once they cross the beginners level they also become large
> and hard to navigate. One can have 'beginners' and 'advanced' but who
> wants to be a 'beginner' ... when is the line crossed. Maybe on the wiky
> we should actually have that distinction.
> 
> > Thanks David!
> >
> > I don't think I've ever been quite so frustrated at trying to learn anything else in
> my life!  If it wasn't required by my job, I wouldn't have made it past the first day or
> two (3 months ago).  But I'm slogging away and it's gradually coming together (I
> think).  I spent my whole day yesterday figuring out how to do some very basic
> formatting/layout that would have taken 5-10 minutes in Word or HTML/CSS.
> >
> > People have been very helpful and patient with me!!  Thanks to all of you for
> that!
> 
> Let me challenge you: how would your solution translate to a wiki page
> for a beginner with the sam eproblem to solve ... content but also the
> 'how to get there aspect'

This is more general than about "my specific problem".  There have been a number of different ones.  They are all basic formatting/layout.  I've resorted to asking about a couple of them on the mailing list after no joy anywhere else.

Off the top of my head, I would suggest more explanation/description and especially more examples of what each option/key/whatever does.  I've always found w3chools.com to be especially helpful with HTML/CSS because they give plenty of examples and explanation.

I don't know if it's really feasible to do anything about it but another thing is the jargon.  I probably mainly think in terms of HTML/CSS lingo and then MS Word.  When I hunt through the wiki or the manuals or Google for solutions, I naturally use the terms I know.  But it seems that the things I've wanted are referred to differently in ConTeXt.  I spent *days* trying to figure out how to add more whitespace around a floated graphic (the default is too cramped in my opinion).  I finally just threw up my hands and decided that no one else has this opinion but me so nobody has ever "fixed" it and thus, no solution exists.


> 
> > And thanks David for this explanation of the situation.
> There are a couple of things that you need to keep in mind when you
> start with something like context:
> 
> - you often bring with your experience (and exposure) to different
> systems and these don't translate; recently i was playing with some css
> setup for a rather complex xml -> html mapping and things that would
> have taken me 5 minutes in tex costs me plenty of time in css due to all
> kind of interactions; just as with tex, one can end up with hacks found
> on the web (it was hobyism of course)

Sure.  I suppose this is the same as my "jargon" comment above.

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything.  I'm trying to learn this stuff.  It's just extremely frustrating...

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 24.06.2020 um 19:41 schrieb Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com>:
>> <Hans>
>> Indeed. It's all volunteer work that doesn't pay the bills. Sitting down
>> and starting to write a big manual simply doesn't pay off so it has to
>> happen in free time. And that being the case, it is more attactive to
>> work on some new challenge.
>> 
>> Concerning manuals: I sometimes wonder if they are really read. So, how
>> to set up one that works for all, build up explanations, etc ... isn't
>> it more about googling a solution nowadays (ok, not entirely true i
>> guess, as one then has to learn how to distinguish the wrong solutions
>> from the good, but i suppose one can just test it).

Most of you know I’m writing at this German ConTeXt book since years...
I use the incomplete version myself a lot, and I very much hope that at least every second German TeX user will buy it ;)

And of course it’s a lot of work – while Hans, Wolfgang and Taco (and a few otehrs) know their code, I must look up every option, try to find a short description or come up with a test case, so that I understand what’s going on to write it down for others. (Often parallelly for the book in Germand and for the wiki in English.)
And far too often I give up because I can’t make something work – mostly because I didn’t understand some fundamental concept (expansion...), but sometimes features just don’t work as advertised/documented (like columnsets).

Googling is necessary and helpful for LaTeX, but there aren’t so many blog or forum entries about ConTeXt.

> I started out maybe a little bit hodge-podge, looking through some documentation recommended to me.  The basic concept is very straightforward.  No problem.  But implementation has been extremely challenging (but it's probably just me!).  Then I was pointed to Henri Menke's "Definitive Guide" post.  I read the entire Excursion (though I confess I did not *practice* as I went along (partly because SciTe was such a pain)).  The Excursion is not for (true) beginners.  And, no offense, but I thought it was poorly typeset as well...

I think it doesn’t make a lot of sense to try to understand the whole thing at once.
You need to start small with a project and some basic structuring, then add your style requirements one after the other.

If you come from a layout background like me, some “advanced“ stuff is really easy in ConTeXt, while seemingly basic stuff is very hard.
The mindset of a command-based typesetting system is fundamentally different from that of a layout program or word processor – even if you can do a lot of the same tasks with each.

> Then I went through Aditya's "amazing tutorial" (mostly with a good bit of help from Aditya just to be able to get started!) and definitely learned more.  But at the end I felt like it was mostly an exercise in "slow-motion copy/paste" (I retyped all the code).  Of course, when I got the code right, I got the intended output.  I did fiddle with options a little bit as I went.  No doubt, I should have done more.  There was too much of what I had "successfully" done that I still didn't really understand at the end of it.

A typesetting system like ConTeXt is as much a tool for professionals as a layout program like InDesign. And even a word processor is better used by professionals who understand what they’re doing.

Each system is also usable by beginners (TeX not so much) – but they can’t expect to get professional results immediately.

With TeX, footnotes, ToCs and indexes are beginner stuff, while they’re quite advanced with InDesign or Word. Styling your work is much easier in a visual programm – while you do it manually.

For ConTeXt you need on one hand the mindset of a programmer, on the other hand that of a media designer.
Using LaTeX you can choose a readymade style (class), but with ConTeXt you define your own – it’s easier, but still challenging.

I think ConTeXt has a similar problem as Objective C: It might be superior to C++, but every introduction into ObjC assumes you are familiar with ANSI C or C++. But if ObjC is so great, why should I bother learning the other?
Most ConTeXt users used LaTeX or plain TeX before. They have to re-learn a lot, but they know a bit about how TeX thinks and works, and they know the limitations of LaTeX.
There is more beginner level documentation for ConTeXt than for ObjC, but we still assume a basic familiarity with TeX and principles of design and typography.

With my book I’m trying to start without prior knowledge, even if I know most of my readers will come from LaTeX.
But I still include sections about working on the command line or choosing a text editor and a lot of basic design/typography knowledge. I want it to really enable someone with usual office experience to start with ConTeXt. On the other hand I’d like to show what’s possible and what I find interesting.

And that leads to:

>> It has been said before: one can have manuals, wikis, mailing lists,
>> journals ... once they cross the beginners level they also become large
>> and hard to navigate. One can have 'beginners' and 'advanced' but who
>> wants to be a 'beginner' ... when is the line crossed. Maybe on the wiky
>> we should actually have that distinction.

It very much depends on your background what you regard beginner or advanced level.

I’m a media designer and not a (computer) scientist, so I don’t need complex formulae, and I don’t know how to describe graphics as curve sections or such, and I can’t come up with good algorithms.

But I’d like to place images on a design grid and fit them to size (maybe even consider the topical focus area) – basic in InDesign, nearly impossible in LaTeX, still very advanced in ConTeXt (with Lua).

Regarding “large and hard to navigate”: It’s sometimes a tough decision what to include in my book and what not, and even more how to order the topics. While I know I need to explain e.g. basic font switching before OpenType features and frames before tables because of the dependencies, I still want to keep topics together, even if the advanced stuff of one topic depends on later chapters.

And I don’t want to have too many chapters (also not very different sizes), so I put things together that make sense in *my* mind (e.g. titling levels and enumerations, it’s all basic structuring), but it’s unavoidable that some readers will find that confusing. (I try to compensate with good indexes.)

Would it make sense to show examples for every possible combination of options? Maybe for users that need to *see* what they’re looking for, but that would unproportionally bloat the book: I want to stop at 400 pages (still at around 270).
Such examples would make sense in the wiki, but it’s too boring and tedious writing them...


>>> I don't think I've ever been quite so frustrated at trying to learn anything else in
>> my life!  If it wasn't required by my job, I wouldn't have made it past the first day or
>> two (3 months ago).  But I'm slogging away and it's gradually coming together (I
>> think).  I spent my whole day yesterday figuring out how to do some very basic
>> formatting/layout that would have taken 5-10 minutes in Word or HTML/CSS.

But I’m quite sure if you figured it out on your own, you know how to do it next time. Or if you forget, you can look for your own solution (I recur to my old environments all the time).

May I ask what kind of job requires you to learn ConTeXt? That’s rare.

> Off the top of my head, I would suggest more explanation/description and especially more examples of what each option/key/whatever does.

See above: It would make sense, but somebody would need to do it, and it’s very tedious. There are hundreds of setup commands, each with many options, each with different values... And some options behave differently depending on other setups or work only under certain circumstances...

> I've always found w3chools.com to be especially helpful with HTML/CSS because they give plenty of examples and explanation.

Please don’t use w3fools! It’s full of errors and bad practice. (At least it was some years before; I can’t imagine it got fundamentally better.)

> I don't know if it's really feasible to do anything about it but another thing is the jargon.  I probably mainly think in terms of HTML/CSS lingo and then MS Word.  When I hunt through the wiki or the manuals or Google for solutions, I naturally use the terms I know. But it seems that the things I've wanted are referred to differently in ConTeXt.  I spent *days* trying to figure out how to add more whitespace around a floated graphic (the default is too cramped in my opinion).  I finally just threw up my hands and decided that no one else has this opinion but me so nobody has ever "fixed" it and thus, no solution exists.

Hm, did you try the margin options of https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupfloat ?

I agree you need to get used to the “lingo”. But that’s the same with every programming language or big library (like .NET or QT). Even more if you need to combine different techniques (like e.g. ConTeXt behind a Django web application that uses a Meteor frontend; i.e. TeX, Lua, Python, JavaScript/TypeScript/CoffeeScript, CSS/SASS, SQL, git, NginX/Apache, deployment tools etc.).

While I’m used to ConTeXt jargon since 20 years, it helps that I’m also used to general typesetting and design jargon. But there’s still a lot I don’t understand or I must search for.

> I don't mean to be a jerk or anything.  I'm trying to learn this stuff.  It's just extremely frustrating...

The learning curve *is* steep and stays steep for a long while, depending on your requirements.


Good luck!
Hraban
www.fiee.net / www.dreiviertelhaus.de



___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of Henning
> Hraban Ramm
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 2:20 PM
> To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Subject: Re: [NTG-context] spacing before items
> 
> 
> 
> Most of you know I’m writing at this German ConTeXt book since years...
> I use the incomplete version myself a lot, and I very much hope that at least every
> second German TeX user will buy it ;)

Awesome!  Keep at it!
Maybe when there's an English version, I'll still need it!  :-)


> 
> Googling is necessary and helpful for LaTeX, but there aren’t so many blog or
> forum entries about ConTeXt.

Yes, this has been kind of frustrating too.  It's certainly challenged my searching skills to find and separate ConTeXt from LaTeX.


> 
> With TeX, footnotes, ToCs and indexes are beginner stuff, while they’re quite
> advanced with InDesign or Word. Styling your work is much easier in a visual
> programm – while you do it manually.

Hmmm...  I don't find those things to be at all advanced in Word.   ???


> 
> There is more beginner level documentation for ConTeXt than for ObjC, but we still
> assume a basic familiarity with TeX and principles of design and typography.

Yes, this is exactly what I've found in just about everything labeled "beginner" or "basic" for ConTeXt documentation.  Maybe it would be "beginner" for someone who already knows some other typesetting code...  The best beginner thing I found was Willi Egger's "ConTeXt for Beginners" (TUGboat, Volume 38 (2017), No. 3).  Only it's too short!  And I think my own background in HTML/CSS made it easier than it would be for someone who comes from an average-Word-user background.


> 
> >>    I spent my whole day yesterday figuring out how to do some very basic
> >> formatting/layout that would have taken 5-10 minutes in Word or HTML/CSS.
> 
> But I’m quite sure if you figured it out on your own, you know how to do it next
> time. Or if you forget, you can look for your own solution (I recur to my old
> environments all the time).

Yes, that at least is a consolation!


> 
> May I ask what kind of job requires you to learn ConTeXt? That’s rare.

Haha!  I now work with Jan Willem Flamma (who is on this list) in the training industry.  He tells me that using ConTeXt with XML will give us a modularity to our training content such that a modification in one place is more or less automatically taken care of for every course manual that uses that content.  (At least that's my current understanding.)  So I've been trying to learn ConTeXt and now slowly chipping away at coding one of our smaller homework chapters.


> 
> > I've always found w3chools.com to be especially helpful with HTML/CSS
> because they give plenty of examples and explanation.
> 
> Please don’t use w3fools! It’s full of errors and bad practice. (At least it was some
> years before; I can’t imagine it got fundamentally better.)

Oh interesting!  I've always found it very helpful.  Probably, I haven't attempted the more advanced features/coding.  ??


> 
> > ....
>   I spent *days* trying to figure out how to add more whitespace
> around a floated graphic (the default is too cramped in my opinion).  I finally just
> threw up my hands and decided that no one else has this opinion but me so
> nobody has ever "fixed" it and thus, no solution exists.
> 
> Hm, did you try the margin options of
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setupfloat ?

I don't remember what all I tried at this point.  I think it's been over two months since I just gave up on that one.  I'll take another look.  Thanks!


> 
> The learning curve *is* steep and stays steep for a long while, depending on your
> requirements.
> 
> 
> Good luck!
> Hraban

THANKS HRABAN!!


___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 24.06.2020 um 23:11 schrieb Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com>:
>> Most of you know I’m writing at this German ConTeXt book since years...
>> I use the incomplete version myself a lot, and I very much hope that at least every
>> second German TeX user will buy it ;)
> 
> Awesome!  Keep at it!
> Maybe when there's an English version, I'll still need it!  :-)

Even if I did plan an English version, I don’t think it will happen... First I need to complete the German version.

>> With TeX, footnotes, ToCs and indexes are beginner stuff, while they’re quite
>> advanced with InDesign or Word. Styling your work is much easier in a visual
>> programm – while you do it manually.
> 
> Hmmm...  I don't find those things to be at all advanced in Word.   ???

It’s easier in Word (or LibreOffice) than in InDesign, true.
Never tried to make an index in LO/Word.

But ToCs in word processors tend to get messed up, as other stuff like image placement.


>> May I ask what kind of job requires you to learn ConTeXt? That’s rare.
> 
> Haha!  I now work with Jan Willem Flamma (who is on this list) in the training industry.  He tells me that using ConTeXt with XML will give us a modularity to our training content such that a modification in one place is more or less automatically taken care of for every course manual that uses that content.  (At least that's my current understanding.)  So I've been trying to learn ConTeXt and now slowly chipping away at coding one of our smaller homework chapters.

It’s at least possible to make it efficient.

I never use XML input but mostly convert DOCX to ConTeXt and work in that.

My main job ATM is with technical documentation on a specialized LaTeX3 system: several similar machines, several translations, i.e. modularity pays off.

At a former job (newspaper prepress admin) I prepared training material on Acrobat Pro using ConTeXt; presentations and handouts in the same documents, using modes.


All the best,
Hraban
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[David Rogers]

Mike Cooper <mike@murchisondrillingschools.com> writes:

> Thanks David!
>
> I don't think I've ever been quite so frustrated at trying to 
> learn anything else in my life!  If it wasn't required by my 
> job, I wouldn't have made it past the first day or two (3 months 
> ago).  But I'm slogging away and it's gradually coming together 
> (I think).  I spent my whole day yesterday figuring out how to 
> do some very basic formatting/layout that would have taken 5-10 
> minutes in Word or HTML/CSS.
>
> People have been very helpful and patient with me!!  Thanks to 
> all of you for that!
>
> And thanks David for this explanation of the situation.
>
> regards,
> Mike

You may already be doing what I'm about to suggest. If so, please 
disregard.

One source that has helped me a lot is the archive of this mailing 
list, where I've searched for any messages that mention whatever 
it is that I'm looking for. Of course such a search is slower than 
scrolling through the index of a manual, and sometimes it's hard 
to figure out "What keyword do I search on? If I knew the correct 
keyword, I'd be done this already!" - but quite often I've "hit 
the jackpot" and found exactly what I needed, or close enough that 
I only had to change some details.

You will soon notice that there are some people on the list who 
consistently see through the problems that are presented, and who 
say something like "I think you probably want something like 
this:" - followed by a solution that makes you say confidently 
"A-ha! So THAT'S how that's done!".

The really good problem-solving sessions on the list, both the 
elegant answers and the questions that precede them, could form a 
pretty good start on a manual. Of course such a method is 
hit-or-miss, but in this case there are quite a few hits. Just 
watch out (in much older messages) that you're not fully relying 
on an answer based on ConTeXt Mk II, because many of those 
solutions no longer work in the newer versions.

... which has accidentally led me to another documentation 
comment. Hans's programming philosophy is not something I'm an 
expert on, but it seems clear that he values "usability, good 
function, and getting the job done well" much higher than he 
values "backward compatibility forever". In other words, if 
something is broken or not good enough, he doesn't hesitate to fix 
it or improve it in the best way he can see. This is good for the 
software in that it is constantly improving in every direction, 
but it does also make it a bit more of a challenge to document, 
and a bit more of a challenge to find someone who *wants* to 
document it - "How ConTeXt Used To Work Last Year" is clearly not 
going to be a top-selling title. :) But despite that, the majority 
of what you want to know has not changed in quite some time, and 
usually only *very* old solutions will fail completely.

I want to finish this message by saying: When you read through 
"SomeFile.tex" that you've created, every switch and command in it 
should make sense to you. In the beginning that might not always 
be the case, but it's easier for you to get there than it might 
sound, and you'll see that all the best solutions you get from 
others share that quality of "Ah, I see, that makes sense, I get 
how this works". Most of the time, a solution that doesn't give 
you that feeling is not quite the right way to do it. Of course a 
poor solution is better than nothing, but please don't stay 
satisfied with hairy-looking clusters of commands that sort of 
work but no one knows why. (I've written lots of those, that's why 
I say this.) :) Simple and direct writing means the mistakes will 
soon become obvious; the worst thing to do in ConTeXt is to make a 
complicated mysterious mistake that you can't even find.

Well. THAT turned out longer than I intended. :)

-- 
David
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[Mike Cooper]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ntg-context [mailto:ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl] On Behalf Of David
> Rogers
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:29 PM
>
> 
> You may already be doing what I'm about to suggest. If so, please
> disregard.
> 

Thanks again David!  IIRC, I did find one solution this way.  I think the biggest challenge with this approach is, as you mention, learning the best search keywords.  I think that should improve over time.

Thank you for this good advice!


___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: spacing before items

[jkitz]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 596 bytes --]



> On Jun 16, 2020, at 1:51 PM, mike@murchisondrillingschools.com wrote:
> 
> I want more space before each top-level item.  MWE:
> 
> \defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
>     \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n]
>     \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=), stopper=]


Is something like this what you want? (Play with the values [2cm])


\defineitemgroup[mdshw][levels=2]
    \setupitemgroup[mdshw][1][n][before={\blank[2cm]},after={\blank[2cm]},inbetween={\blank[2cm]}]
    \setupitemgroup[mdshw][2][a, packed, 1*broad][left=(, right=), stopper=]


HTH,
John

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 5157 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 493 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________