Re: Re: TeX run : 8

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi Peter,


Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote:

>  On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Patrick Gundlach wrote:
>
>  > > for those, who don't want to update:
>  > > export PERL_HASH_SEED=0
>  > > in $HOME/.profile works very nicely.
>  >
>  > is this reliable?
>
>  It seems to me. At least on Linux: since a long time I've been used to get
>  always 8 runs with my procuct-files, and now I get only 1 or 2 runs.
>
>  Cheers, Peter


I just saw that you also fought with the "unknown 
reference []" while using the ffr encoding (nine 
months ago).
I read and tried all the solutions that Hans and you found out up to now.

But as soon as I set

\enablemode[activecolon] \usemodule[tryout]

in my local cont-sys.tex I am back to 8 runs 
again (either with Patrick's patch or with your 
line in .profile).

Do you experience the same (or did I use the wrong .profile here on Mac)?

This would mean that, when using ffr, we either 
have to ignore all this unknown reference outputs 
or fall back to 8 runs :o(

Or does someone already has a solution covering both bugs?

Steffen

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Peter Münster]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Patrick Gundlach wrote:

> > for those, who don't want to update:
> > export PERL_HASH_SEED=0
> > in $HOME/.profile works very nicely.
> 
> is this reliable?

It seems to me. At least on Linux: since a long time I've been used to get
always 8 runs with my procuct-files, and now I get only 1 or 2 runs.

Cheers, Peter

-- 
http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Peter Münster]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:
>  >>
> >>[if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then it looks
> >>like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each os]
> 
> The most relevant bit of documentation is this:
> 
> http://search.cpan.org/dist/perl/pod/perl581delta.pod#Hash_Randomisation
> 
> So yes, it is perl, and it is on purpose.
> 
> There might be more locations in ConTeXt's perl scripts
> that need an additional 'sort'.

Hello,
for those, who don't want to update:
export PERL_HASH_SEED=0
in $HOME/.profile works very nicely.

Greetings, Peter

-- 
http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Taco Hoekwater]

Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:
 >>
>>[if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then it looks
>>like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each os]

The most relevant bit of documentation is this:

http://search.cpan.org/dist/perl/pod/perl581delta.pod#Hash_Randomisation

So yes, it is perl, and it is on purpose.

There might be more locations in ConTeXt's perl scripts
that need an additional 'sort'.

Greetings, Taco

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Angus Lees]

At Thu, 03 Mar 2005 12:59:18 +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> [if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then
> it looks like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each
> os]

Indeed, perl 5.8.1 introduced randomised hash functions to avoid the
"hash collision" attacks that were being published at the time.  You
can never assume hash traversal order will be constant across
different hashes.  See the discussion in the beginning of
`perldoc perl581delta' (and a followup in perl582delta).

-- 
 - Gus

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

>  Patrick Gundlach wrote:
>
>  > do you still want me to try this?
>
>  not if we assume that indeed perl hashes are organized differently per run
>
>  so, for the moment let stick to the texutil sort patch
>
>  thanks for testing; i'll post a new beta later
>
>  Hans



2 runs not 8:
That would mean that all Mac-ConTeXters won 75% TeX-time by your 
investigation (how many hours/days/years this might be ... )

Thank you Patrick, thank you Hans!

Steffen

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:

> do you still want me to try this? 

not if we assume that indeed perl hashes are organized differently per run

so, for the moment let stick to the texutil sort patch

thanks for testing; i'll post a new beta later

Hans


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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I don't know enough of perl, perhaps the hash %Files should be sorted before
> output (texutil.pl)?
> 
> sub FlushFiles
>   { print TUO "%\n" . "% $Program / Files\n" . "%\n" ;
>     foreach $File (keys %Files)
>       { print TUO "% $File ($Files{$File})\n" }

That could be a way out, but before that i want you to check the order in the 
tui files.

[if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then it looks 
like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each os]

Hans


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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:
> Hello Hans,
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
>>can you patch texexec to provide some info about the file compare?
>>(filesizes or so)
> 
> 
> done, see attachment.

now this is weird!

% parts/one.tex (2)
% parts/two.tex (2)
% test (2)

% parts/two.tex (2)
% parts/one.tex (2)
% test (2)

% parts/two.tex (2)
% test (2)
% parts/one.tex (2)

it looks like some flushing problem of write nodes, can you do the same with the 
tui file?

the code in context that does this is:

   \def\registerfileinfo[#1#2]#3%
     {\writestatus\m!systems{#1#2 file #3 at line \the\inputlineno}%
      \immediatewriteutility{f #1 {#3}}}

does it run ok when you define this as:

   \def\registerfileinfo[#1]#2{}

if so, it may be a problem in the tex binary (immediate writes not flushed ok)

Hans

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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Taco Hoekwater]

I think you've nailed it. Nice debugging!

Taco

Patrick Gundlach wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I don't know enough of perl, perhaps the hash %Files should be sorted before
> output (texutil.pl)?
> 
> 
> sub FlushFiles
>   { print TUO "%\n" . "% $Program / Files\n" . "%\n" ;
>     foreach $File (keys %Files)
>       { print TUO "% $File ($Files{$File})\n" }
> 
> Patrick

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Adam Lindsay]

Patrick Gundlach said this at Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:05:15 +0100:

>> [And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]
>
>Don't say that ;-). I just got a new PowerBook.

My _two-year-old_ 12" PowerBook. The Mac mini'd be just a shade slower
than the current (very attractive) generation of PBs.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Adam Lindsay]

Hans Hagen said this at Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:38:11 +0100:

>> [And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]
>
>if it runs ok on your old box ... is it related to the version of perl?

Old box is in for repair--can't test it. :/
It was a slower processor, with heavier TeX trees, and a full (fragmented
disk)--no real surprise that a virgin setup on a new machine is nicer.

Anyway, on both machines, Perl is stock 5.8.1-RC3, nothing modified from
what Apple ships with the current OS.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Adam Lindsay wrote:
> Patrick Gundlach said this at Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:46:05 +0100:
> 
> 
>>>dunno, the mac is not updated yet and actually not sitting on my desk
>>>but in my library; best let patrick and/or adam test that since they
>>>normally have the latest (alpha/beta/current) versions
> 
> 
> I can't add much to this discussion, other than I get 1 < n < 9 runs with
> Steffen's minimal test case as well. I'm running Hans's minimal distro
> and the latest alpha. (On my new Mac mini. :)
> 
> [And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]

if it runs ok on your old box ... is it related to the version of perl?

Hans


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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Adam Lindsay]

Patrick Gundlach said this at Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:46:05 +0100:

>
>> dunno, the mac is not updated yet and actually not sitting on my desk
>> but in my library; best let patrick and/or adam test that since they
>> normally have the latest (alpha/beta/current) versions

I can't add much to this discussion, other than I get 1 < n < 9 runs with
Steffen's minimal test case as well. I'm running Hans's minimal distro
and the latest alpha. (On my new Mac mini. :)

[And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:

> ok, clean setup, all lowercase. 8 runs. Now texutil --purgeall. 2
> runs. purge again. 8 runs. purge again. 2 runs. No purge. 8 runs.
> Purge. 8 runs. 2 runs. purge. 4 runs (!!!). purge. 2 runs. purge. 8
> runs. 3 runs. purge. 5 runs. purge. 5 runs. purge. 8 runs.
> 
> 
> -> 8, 2, 8, 2, 8, 8, 2, 4, 2, 8, 3, 5, 5, 8

can you patch texexec to provide some info about the file compare? (filesizes or 
so)

what puzzles me is that the tui/tuo does not change

Hans

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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi Patrick,



Patrick Gundlach <patrick@gundla.ch> wrote:

>  Hello again,
>
>  > I have tried your small file (the one you have sent me) an a vanilla
>  > tetex 3.0 and an older texlive (I had to dig out my iBook -- anybody
>  > wants to buy a used iBook?) and both were two runs.
>
>  Ah, not so fast, Patrick. I can reproduce your problem:
>
>  $ ls -lR
>  .:
>  total 4
>  drwxr-xr-x    4 pg       pg            136 Mar  2 20:27 PARTS
>  -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg            117 Mar  2 20:28 TEST.tex
>
>  ./PARTS:
>  total 8
>  -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 ONE.tex
>  -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 TWO.tex
>
>  (so setup is TEST.tex in all capitals and ONE.tex and TWO.tex in
>  subdir, tetex 3.0). Now I run
>
>  texexec --pdf test.tex
>
>  (lowercase test.tex !)
>
>  and I get:
>
>  [...]
>
>   utility file analysis : another run needed
>                 TeX run : 8
>
>
>  [...]
>
>
>  Note that the standard OS X filesystem is case preserving, but not
>  case sensitive when accessing a file. So accessing test.tex would be
>  happy with a file called TEST.tex. It is possible to create a pure
>  case sensitive HFS+ filesystem, but it isn't necessary to reproduce
>  the problem. (It would probably avoid it, though).
>
>
>  Patrick



So I made a new setup:
new files/folders and every names lowercase (folders, files, references).

The first time I executed
texexec --pdf test.tex
it looked good: 2 runs!
Then I executed
texexec --pdf test.tex
once more and now it was 8 runs again!

Does this make sense?

Steffen

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:

>>I have tried your small file (the one you have sent me) an a vanilla
>>tetex 3.0 and an older texlive (I had to dig out my iBook -- anybody
>>wants to buy a used iBook?) and both were two runs.
> 
> 
> Ah, not so fast, Patrick. I can reproduce your problem:
> 
> $ ls -lR
> .:
> total 4
> drwxr-xr-x    4 pg       pg            136 Mar  2 20:27 PARTS
> -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg            117 Mar  2 20:28 TEST.tex
> 
> ./PARTS:
> total 8
> -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 ONE.tex
> -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 TWO.tex
> 
> (so setup is TEST.tex in all capitals and ONE.tex and TWO.tex in
> subdir, tetex 3.0). Now I run
> 
> texexec --pdf test.tex
> 
> (lowercase test.tex !)
> 
> and I get:
> 
> [...]
> 
>  utility file analysis : another run needed
>                TeX run : 8
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> Note that the standard OS X filesystem is case preserving, but not
> case sensitive when accessing a file. So accessing test.tex would be
> happy with a file called TEST.tex. It is possible to create a pure
> case sensitive HFS+ filesystem, but it isn't necessary to reproduce
> the problem. (It would probably avoid it, though).

ah, i explicitly tried both lower and uppercase variants of the sample files, 
but windows does not care, i.e. all access deep down in the system is (afaik) 
cap. So i saw no difference here.

so, what do you recomend, renaming the file to lowercase?

Hans



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