Creeps (binding gutter / margin correction in imposition)

Creeps (binding gutter / margin correction in imposition)

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Hi together,

this is not really a practical request, but an interesting (I think) idea...

ConTeXt can do simple imposition (arranging pages on sheets, see \setuparranging), but in professional imposition you need to compensate for the paper thickness in folds to keep pages readable - you can move the outer pages of a fold out of the gutter (spine), or move the inner pages to the spine. (This is called creep in English, Bundversatz in German.) That means, your outer margin will have different width, depending on the position of the page in its fold.

See e.g. https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/printing-booklets.html

A guy on the LilyPond mailing list had the interesting idea to adapt the line width to this creep, to keep an even outer margin - it would mean that TeX needs to know about imposition while breaking lines.

What do you think?


Greetlings, Hraban
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Re: Creeps (binding gutter / margin correction in imposition)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

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> Henning Hraban Ramm <mailto:texml@fiee.net>
> 7. November 2016 um 08:33
> Hi together,
>
> this is not really a practical request, but an interesting (I think) 
> idea...
>
> ConTeXt can do simple imposition (arranging pages on sheets, see 
> \setuparranging), but in professional imposition you need to 
> compensate for the paper thickness in folds to keep pages readable - 
> you can move the outer pages of a fold out of the gutter (spine), or 
> move the inner pages to the spine. (This is called creep in English, 
> Bundversatz in German.) That means, your outer margin will have 
> different width, depending on the position of the page in its fold.
>
> See e.g. https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/printing-booklets.html
>
> A guy on the LilyPond mailing list had the interesting idea to adapt 
> the line width to this creep, to keep an even outer margin - it would 
> mean that TeX needs to know about imposition while breaking lines.
>
> What do you think?
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/definepageshift
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setuppageshift

Wolfgang

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Re: Creeps (binding gutter / margin correction in imposition)

[Willi Egger]

Hi Hraban,

I am not sure about what you say. The page shifting/creep correction is added individually per spread. If this is done correctly then the typeset area is on all pages the same width and has after folding and cutting  the same outer margin. 
As Wolfgang reports look into \definepageshift cum suis.


Kind regards

Willi

> On 7 Nov 2016, at 08:33, Henning Hraban Ramm <texml@fiee.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi together,
> 
> this is not really a practical request, but an interesting (I think) idea...
> 
> ConTeXt can do simple imposition (arranging pages on sheets, see \setuparranging), but in professional imposition you need to compensate for the paper thickness in folds to keep pages readable - you can move the outer pages of a fold out of the gutter (spine), or move the inner pages to the spine. (This is called creep in English, Bundversatz in German.) That means, your outer margin will have different width, depending on the position of the page in its fold.
> 
> See e.g. https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/printing-booklets.html
> 
> A guy on the LilyPond mailing list had the interesting idea to adapt the line width to this creep, to keep an even outer margin - it would mean that TeX needs to know about imposition while breaking lines.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> 
> Greetlings, Hraban
> ---
> http://www.fiee.net
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net
> GPG Key ID 1C9B22FD
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

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Re: Creeps (binding gutter / margin correction in imposition)

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2016-11-07 um 15:29 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@gmail.com>:

>> Henning Hraban Ramm 7. November 2016 um 08:33
>> Hi together,
>> 
>> this is not really a practical request, but an interesting (I think) idea...
>> 
>> ConTeXt can do simple imposition (arranging pages on sheets, see \setuparranging), but in professional imposition you need to compensate for the paper thickness in folds to keep pages readable - you can move the outer pages of a fold out of the gutter (spine), or move the inner pages to the spine. (This is called creep in English, Bundversatz in German.) That means, your outer margin will have different width, depending on the position of the page in its fold.
>> 
>> See e.g. https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/printing-booklets.html
>> 
>> A guy on the LilyPond mailing list had the interesting idea to adapt the line width to this creep, to keep an even outer margin - it would mean that TeX needs to know about imposition while breaking lines.
>> 
>> What do you think?
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/definepageshift
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/setuppageshift

Oh yes, thank you!
I knew there was already a solution for the ususal creep, but I couldn’t find it, was expecting a parameter of \setuparranging or the like.

But that doesn’t reduce the line width for shifted pages.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
GPG Key ID 1C9B22FD

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Re: Creeps (binding gutter / margin correction in imposition)

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2016-11-07 um 17:44 schrieb Willi Egger <context@boede.nl>:

> I am not sure about what you say. The page shifting/creep correction is added individually per spread. If this is done correctly then the typeset area is on all pages the same width and has after folding and cutting  the same outer margin. 

Exactly. But I wanted to discuss the idea to adapt the width of the text area (\textwidth) or maybe the width of margins (the marginals area that ConTeXt calls margin) to the page shift, so that the optical width of the margins (what ConTeXt calls edges) stays the same.
As far as I know, nobody ever did that - of course, it’s a major effort for little gain, and it complicates TeX’s line breaking, the engine would need to know about imposition while breaking lines.
But since we can have snake-justified text, I thought I could bring up the idea ;)

Greetlings, Hraban
---
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http://wiki.contextgarden.net
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Re: Creeps (binding gutter / margin correction in imposition)

[Hans Hagen]

On 11/7/2016 11:07 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Am 2016-11-07 um 17:44 schrieb Willi Egger <context@boede.nl>:
>
>> I am not sure about what you say. The page shifting/creep correction is added individually per spread. If this is done correctly then the typeset area is on all pages the same width and has after folding and cutting  the same outer margin.
>
> Exactly. But I wanted to discuss the idea to adapt the width of the text area (\textwidth) or maybe the width of margins (the marginals area that ConTeXt calls margin) to the page shift, so that the optical width of the margins (what ConTeXt calls edges) stays the same.
> As far as I know, nobody ever did that - of course, it’s a major effort for little gain, and it complicates TeX’s line breaking, the engine would need to know about imposition while breaking lines.
> But since we can have snake-justified text, I thought I could bring up the idea ;)

The problem there is that you then need to mess with parshapes or reflow 
(not impossible) because a paragraph can cross a page boundary. As usual 
the problem is not in simple texts but in a mix.

Messing with margins might be easier (cutspace/backspace).

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