sometxt in mkiv

sometxt in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Hi all,

I was just wondering if this is a bug or if it's something that still  
needs to be implemented: the example on p. 10 of Mojca's sometxt MyWay  
works in mkii, yet in mkiv, it doesn't:

\starttext
\startTeXtexts
\dorecurse{12}{\TeXtext{\recurselevel}{\recurselevel}}
\stopTeXtexts

\startMPcode
numeric r; r = 1.5cm;
draw fullcircle scaled 2r;
for i=1 upto 12:
draw (origin--down) scaled 4pt shifted (0,r) rotated -30i;
label(sometxt(i), up scaled .75r rotated -30i);
endfor;
\stopMPcode
\stoptext

in mkiv, I get no labels and the somewhat cryptic sentence "[do we  
need TeXtexts in MkIV]" on my pdf. Anybody able to answer this or my  
question?

All best

Thomas
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Aditya Mahajan]

Hi Thomas,

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was just wondering if this is a bug or if it's something that still
> needs to be implemented: the example on p. 10 of Mojca's sometxt MyWay
> works in mkii, yet in mkiv, it doesn't:
>
> \starttext
> \startTeXtexts
> \dorecurse{12}{\TeXtext{\recurselevel}{\recurselevel}}
> \stopTeXtexts
>
> \startMPcode
> numeric r; r = 1.5cm;
> draw fullcircle scaled 2r;
> for i=1 upto 12:
> draw (origin--down) scaled 4pt shifted (0,r) rotated -30i;
> label(sometxt(i), up scaled .75r rotated -30i);
> endfor;
> \stopMPcode
> \stoptext
>
> in mkiv, I get no labels and the somewhat cryptic sentence "[do we
> need TeXtexts in MkIV]" on my pdf. Anybody able to answer this or my
> question?

In MKIV, you can simply use textext for such purposes:

\starttext
\startMPcode
numeric r; r = 1.5cm;
draw fullcircle scaled 2r;
for i=1 upto 12:
draw (origin--down) scaled 4pt shifted (0,r) rotated -30i;
label(textext(decimal i), up scaled .75r rotated -30i);
endfor;
\stopMPcode
\stoptext

Aditya
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was just wondering if this is a bug or if it's something that still
> needs to be implemented: the example on p. 10 of Mojca's sometxt MyWay
> works in mkii, yet in mkiv, it doesn't:
>
> \starttext
> \startTeXtexts
> \dorecurse{12}{\TeXtext{\recurselevel}{\recurselevel}}
> \stopTeXtexts
>
> \startMPcode
> numeric r; r = 1.5cm;
> draw fullcircle scaled 2r;
> for i=1 upto 12:
> draw (origin--down) scaled 4pt shifted (0,r) rotated -30i;
> label(sometxt(i), up scaled .75r rotated -30i);
> endfor;
> \stopMPcode
> \stoptext
>
> in mkiv, I get no labels and the somewhat cryptic sentence "[do we
> need TeXtexts in MkIV]" on my pdf. Anybody able to answer this or my
> question?

Honestly, I don't think that we need this exact functionality. In mkiv
textext works perfectly well to achieve the same goal, you don't
really need \sometxt or \TeXtext. The only question is: do we care
about backward compatibility? I can also remove the example from MyWay
or write that it's a bit obscure. It really is an obscure application.

OK, I just neglected the fact that I do use that in the gnuplot module
(which is not mkiv ready for two tiny and obscure reasons that could
be fixed long ago). In case that I won't be drawing the graphs for
thesis in excell, I'll try to fix the module. I don't think that any
other sane person uses \TeXtext. (I don't, and module should be fixed
anyway.)

Mojca
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Sep 7, 2008, at 9:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> Honestly, I don't think that we need this exact functionality. In mkiv
> textext works perfectly well to achieve the same goal, you don't
> really need \sometxt or \TeXtext. The only question is: do we care
> about backward compatibility? I can also remove the example from MyWay
> or write that it's a bit obscure. It really is an obscure application.
>
> OK, I just neglected the fact that I do use that in the gnuplot module
> (which is not mkiv ready for two tiny and obscure reasons that could
> be fixed long ago). In case that I won't be drawing the graphs for
> thesis in excell, I'll try to fix the module. I don't think that any
> other sane person uses \TeXtext. (I don't, and module should be fixed
> anyway.)
>
> Mojca

Mojca, Aditya,

thanks for your responses. I was aware that you can use textext  
(that's what I do right now), but was under the impression that  
sometxt was the way to go (faster and more flexible). Now I'm  
confused :-)  I was asking because I was working on my presentation  
module. One of the metapost graphics for picture inclusion seems to  
give problems when run under XeTeX, so I was wondering if I could  
replace it with the clever sometxt mechanism Mojca mentions in her  
MyWay. But then I saw that this doesn't work in mkiv... I find XeTeX  
very hard to support in my module. I don't use it myself, I find fonts  
deeply baffling (I still got the darned "mktextfm lmtypewriter- 
blablabla" message a zillion times, and there is no way to stop a  
XeTeX run; I still had to explicitly disable MKTEXTFM in texmf.cnf in  
TeXLive 2008), so I'm considering just giving it up and tell people to  
use mkiv instead.

Mojca: I appreciate you write "any other sane person" and not "any  
sane person" :-)

All best

Thomas
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was just wondering if this is a bug or if it's something that still
>> needs to be implemented: the example on p. 10 of Mojca's sometxt MyWay
>> works in mkii, yet in mkiv, it doesn't:
>>
>> \starttext
>> \startTeXtexts
>> \dorecurse{12}{\TeXtext{\recurselevel}{\recurselevel}}
>> \stopTeXtexts
>>
>> \startMPcode
>> numeric r; r = 1.5cm;
>> draw fullcircle scaled 2r;
>> for i=1 upto 12:
>> draw (origin--down) scaled 4pt shifted (0,r) rotated -30i;
>> label(sometxt(i), up scaled .75r rotated -30i);
>> endfor;
>> \stopMPcode
>> \stoptext
>>
>> in mkiv, I get no labels and the somewhat cryptic sentence "[do we
>> need TeXtexts in MkIV]" on my pdf. Anybody able to answer this or my
>> question?
> 
> Honestly, I don't think that we need this exact functionality. In mkiv
> textext works perfectly well to achieve the same goal, you don't
> really need \sometxt or \TeXtext. The only question is: do we care
> about backward compatibility? I can also remove the example from MyWay
> or write that it's a bit obscure. It really is an obscure application.
> 
> OK, I just neglected the fact that I do use that in the gnuplot module
> (which is not mkiv ready for two tiny and obscure reasons that could
> be fixed long ago). In case that I won't be drawing the graphs for
> thesis in excell, I'll try to fix the module. I don't think that any
> other sane person uses \TeXtext. (I don't, and module should be fixed
> anyway.)

i didn't implement TeXtext in mkiv because it was an kind of hack needed 
to deal with many labels (either or not in loops) in a fast and 
efficient way (as needed by gnuplot); as mojca mentioned, this is no 
longer an issue, so i'd rather avoid introducing this hack again

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

> thanks for your responses. I was aware that you can use textext  
> (that's what I do right now), but was under the impression that  
> sometxt was the way to go (faster and more flexible). Now I'm  
> confused :-)  I was asking because I was working on my presentation  

both mkiv and sometxt use some box trickery which keeps the tex 
processing completely inside the tex engine (only refs and dimensions 
are passed); in order to deal with loopt, we introduced the TeXtext 
trick but it' sno longer needed

there is still \sometxt but it's just a shortcut to a predefined 
commando (e.g. framed) which can be handy sometimes

> module. One of the metapost graphics for picture inclusion seems to  
> give problems when run under XeTeX, so I was wondering if I could  
> replace it with the clever sometxt mechanism Mojca mentions in her  
> MyWay. But then I saw that this doesn't work in mkiv... I find XeTeX  
> very hard to support in my module. I don't use it myself, I find fonts  

then just don't support it and assume mkiv usage

> deeply baffling (I still got the darned "mktextfm lmtypewriter- 
> blablabla" message a zillion times, and there is no way to stop a  
> XeTeX run; I still had to explicitly disable MKTEXTFM in texmf.cnf in  
> TeXLive 2008), so I'm considering just giving it up and tell people to  
> use mkiv instead.

indeed; this is a side effect of xetex being opentype and mp only able 
to deal with 8 bit fonts; in mkiv mp never sees any text (not een the 
btex .. etex which is replaced by by textext before the mp code is 
passed to mp); that's why in mkiv your text is a matter of the current 
run (inlcuding fotn settings and such, i.e. no need to pass anything to 
MPenvironment either)

concerning your module ... you can have a mymodule.mkiv alongside 
mymodule.tex if needed

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Sep 8, 2008, at 11:26 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> indeed; this is a side effect of xetex being opentype and mp only able
> to deal with 8 bit fonts; in mkiv mp never sees any text (not een the
> btex .. etex which is replaced by by textext before the mp code is
> passed to mp); that's why in mkiv your text is a matter of the current
> run (inlcuding fotn settings and such, i.e. no need to pass anything  
> to
> MPenvironment either)
>

Ah OK, thanks for the explanation. This will make it quite hard to  
support XeTeX. I'll have to look for a sane way to default to lm, then.

> concerning your module ... you can have a mymodule.mkiv alongside
> mymodule.tex if needed

At least for the font setup, I have long runs of \beginXETEX,  
\beginLUATEX and \beginOLDTEX, that was enough for now.

Best

Thomas
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:26 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> module. One of the metapost graphics for picture inclusion seems to
>> give problems when run under XeTeX, so I was wondering if I could
>> replace it with the clever sometxt mechanism Mojca mentions in her
>> MyWay. But then I saw that this doesn't work in mkiv... I find XeTeX
>> very hard to support in my module. I don't use it myself, I find fonts
>
> then just don't support it and assume mkiv usage

Don't listen to Hans :P

Gnuplot works (or at least used to work) with XeTeX just fine :) :) :)
If you want to support both mkii (via \sometxt) and mkiv, XeTeX
support comes with it (almost) for free.

Mojca
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
>
> Mojca, Aditya,
>
> thanks for your responses. I was aware that you can use textext
> (that's what I do right now), but was under the impression that
> sometxt was the way to go (faster and more flexible). Now I'm
> confused :-)

In mkii (XeTeX included) \sometxt is still the way to go.
textext("...") is way too slow and painful to use if you want to use
anything but simple LM texts.

In mkiv, textext("...") is efficient enough, so in theory it doesn't
matter what you use (\sometxt becomes just a synonym for
textext("...")), but I didn't test it extensively.

>  I was asking because I was working on my presentation
> module. One of the metapost graphics for picture inclusion seems to
> give problems when run under XeTeX, so I was wondering if I could
> replace it with the clever sometxt mechanism Mojca mentions in her
> MyWay. But then I saw that this doesn't work in mkiv... I find XeTeX
> very hard to support in my module. I don't use it myself, I find fonts
> deeply baffling (I still got the darned "mktextfm lmtypewriter-
> blablabla" message a zillion times, and there is no way to stop a
> XeTeX run;

Apart from noisy messages: did it also fail or was it just annoying?

Mojca
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Sep 9, 2008, at 5:13 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

>> I was asking because I was working on my presentation
>> module. One of the metapost graphics for picture inclusion seems to
>> give problems when run under XeTeX, so I was wondering if I could
>> replace it with the clever sometxt mechanism Mojca mentions in her
>> MyWay. But then I saw that this doesn't work in mkiv... I find XeTeX
>> very hard to support in my module. I don't use it myself, I find  
>> fonts
>> deeply baffling (I still got the darned "mktextfm lmtypewriter-
>> blablabla" message a zillion times, and there is no way to stop a
>> XeTeX run;
>
> Apart from noisy messages: did it also fail or was it just annoying?
>
> Mojca

It did work in the end, but it took several minutes at each run...

Best

Thomas
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Re: sometxt in mkiv

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

> I think this message mysteriously disappeared yesterday (at least I
> didn;t see it); if you've seen it before, please excuse the double post!

See my reply: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.tex.context/43741

Aditya
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sometxt in mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

I think this message mysteriously disappeared yesterday (at least I  
didn;t see it); if you've seen it before, please excuse the double post!

Hi all,

I was just wondering if this is a bug or if it's something that still  
needs to be implemented: the example on p. 10 of Mojca's sometxt MyWay  
works in mkii, yet in mkiv, it doesn't:

\starttext
\startTeXtexts
\dorecurse{12}{\TeXtext{\recurselevel}{\recurselevel}}
\stopTeXtexts

\startMPcode
numeric r; r = 1.5cm;
draw fullcircle scaled 2r;
for i=1 upto 12:
draw (origin--down) scaled 4pt shifted (0,r) rotated -30i;
label(sometxt(i), up scaled .75r rotated -30i);
endfor;
\stopMPcode
\stoptext

in mkiv, I get no labels and the somewhat cryptic sentence "[do we  
need TeXtexts in MkIV]" on my pdf. Anybody able to answer this or my  
question?

All best

Thomas
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