* What should I learn?
@ 2008-10-21 2:39 Maurício
2008-10-21 6:49 ` luigi scarso
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Maurício @ 2008-10-21 2:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Hi,
I would like to ask you some advice on what
should I learn.
Context was the first typography program I
used. Then I tried Tex and a little bit of
latex.
Context is where I get the best results, but
what I really would like is something that
allows me to do things in my own way, not
something that's always great for reasons I
don't understand. (Of course, the first
documents I would type would not be that good,
but I'll learn with time.)
I thought Tex could be that, but it's not. I
can't use it to create something to fit my
(worst) taste instead of Knuth's (better)
taste without doing a lot more work than I'm
able to do.
I also like to write programs (I use a really
nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
could get what I want if I write or translate
typography functions to that language, and then
write programs to generate documents? Where
could I find or where could I learn about such
functions?
Thanks,
Maurício
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 2:39 What should I learn? Maurício
@ 2008-10-21 6:49 ` luigi scarso
2008-10-21 7:14 ` Frans Goddijn
2008-10-22 2:37 ` Aditya Mahajan
2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2008-10-21 6:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
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>
> I also like to write programs (I use a really
> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
> could get what I want if I write or translate
> typography functions to that language, and then
> write programs to generate documents?
You will reinvent the wheel (TeX)
--
luigi
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 2:39 What should I learn? Maurício
2008-10-21 6:49 ` luigi scarso
@ 2008-10-21 7:14 ` Frans Goddijn
2008-10-21 13:14 ` Mauricio
2008-10-22 2:37 ` Aditya Mahajan
2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Frans Goddijn @ 2008-10-21 7:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[new subject line: "dwarfs astride the shoulders of giants"]
Hi Maurício,
I understand your ambition to do it all your own way and do it at
least as well as the masters, preferably skipping the tedious process
of following their lead first ;-)
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants
Years ago I was at a meeting of local TeX users and the guest speaker
was a legendary typographer who had written a landmark book about
making books. In the audience was a young man who had a question, or
rather an opinion. "In typography, left/right justified text is
supposed to be the standard, but that's nonsense. I find it better and
more readable to have text flush left. What do you think?" The
typographer answered "well maybe you are right, but all the leading
typographers of centuries before us have disagreed with you."
Others will have different suggestions but you could start out reading
the TeXbook by Knuth
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/abcde.html
and any basic book about typography.
Enjoy the trip!
Frans
On 21 okt 2008, at 04:39, Maurí cio wrote:
Hi,
I would like to ask you some advice on what
should I learn.
Context was the first typography program I
used. Then I tried Tex and a little bit of
latex.
Context is where I get the best results, but
what I really would like is something that
allows me to do things in my own way, not
something that's always great for reasons I
don't understand. (Of course, the first
documents I would type would not be that good,
but I'll learn with time.)
I thought Tex could be that, but it's not. I
can't use it to create something to fit my
(worst) taste instead of Knuth's (better)
taste without doing a lot more work than I'm
able to do.
I also like to write programs (I use a really
nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
could get what I want if I write or translate
typography functions to that language, and then
write programs to generate documents? Where
could I find or where could I learn about such
functions?
Thanks,
Maurício
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 7:14 ` Frans Goddijn
@ 2008-10-21 13:14 ` Mauricio
2008-10-21 14:26 ` Hans Hagen
2008-10-21 19:48 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Mauricio @ 2008-10-21 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Thanks. But typography books are not the problem. I've seen many,
many, many of them, and each one makes me unhappy because I have
nowhere to try what they say. My dad is very good at typesetting,
but he can draw very well (everything he writes is manuscript, he
don't drust a computer to do anything after a few bad
experiences). I can't draw, so I need software that gets what I
describe and makes it into PDF.
The problem is: understanding everything about PDF file format,
reading font files, knowing about all available implementations of
typesetting algorithms is far beyond my habilities.
Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
(and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be
hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
algorithms).
Thanks for your tips,
Maurício
> Hi Maurício,
>
> (...)
>
> Others will have different suggestions but you could start out
> reading the TeXbook by Knuth
>
> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/abcde.html
>
> and any basic book about typography.
>
> Enjoy the trip!
>
> Frans
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I would like to ask you some advice on what should I
>> learn. (...)
>>
>> Context is where I get the best results, but what I really
>> would like is something that allows me to do things in my own
>> way, not something that's always great for reasons I don't
>> understand. (...)
>>
>> Do you think I could get what I want if I write or translate
>> typography functions to that language, and then write programs
>> to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I
>> learn about such functions?
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 13:14 ` Mauricio
@ 2008-10-21 14:26 ` Hans Hagen
2008-10-21 19:30 ` Mauricio
2008-10-21 19:48 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-10-21 14:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Mauricio wrote:
> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
> code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be
> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
> algorithms).
you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support
etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 14:26 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-10-21 19:30 ` Mauricio
2008-10-22 7:42 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Mauricio @ 2008-10-21 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> Mauricio wrote:
>
>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
>> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
>> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
>> code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be
>> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
>> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
>> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
>> algorithms).
>
> you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support
> etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
>
I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)
I think I want to have enough available libraries so
that I could write small programs to generate documents.
Most of the time I would probably insert the text in
the source code, or create specialized programs that
could deal with specific series of documents (I remember
reading in an interview with Donald Knuth that this is
the way TeX was supposed to be used when it was designed.)
If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least
write a nice library of general purpose typesetting
algorithms that someone could use in the future to do
what I want. Although I don't think giants should be on
top of dwarfs...
Best,
Maurício
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 13:14 ` Mauricio
2008-10-21 14:26 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-10-21 19:48 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2008-10-22 11:01 ` Mauricio
1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد @ 2008-10-21 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi,
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:14:50 -0600, Mauricio <briqueabraque@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
> code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be
> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
> algorithms).
The beginning of the above paragraph is confused, but I have no time to
disambiguate :-)
What you are looking for sounds like a pipe dream. OTOH, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lout
It is apparently a "Haskell-like" language that seems to roughly
correspond to what you are looking for.
Best wishes
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 2:39 What should I learn? Maurício
2008-10-21 6:49 ` luigi scarso
2008-10-21 7:14 ` Frans Goddijn
@ 2008-10-22 2:37 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-10-22 11:11 ` Mauricio
2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2008-10-22 2:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 583 bytes --]
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Maurício wrote:
> I also like to write programs (I use a really
> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
> could get what I want if I write or translate
> typography functions to that language, and then
> write programs to generate documents? Where
> could I find or where could I learn about such
> functions?
You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big
as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand
than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
Aditya
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 19:30 ` Mauricio
@ 2008-10-22 7:42 ` Hans Hagen
2008-10-22 10:55 ` Mauricio
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-10-22 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Mauricio wrote:
>> Mauricio wrote:
>>
>>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
>>> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
>>> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
>>> code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be
>>> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
>>> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
>>> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
>>> algorithms).
>> you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support
>> etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
>>
>
> I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)
well, for most users a macro is just an abstraction doing something
typographically meaningfull; in that sense it's not much different from
a library where you use some function call to achieve the same
no matter what programming tools you use, the problem remains the same
... if for instance you want to deal with fonts in a systematic way you
have to program that (and there are several approaches for organizing
fonts); in the end you end up with much macro code, haskell code, c
code, whatever code, either ot not hidden
what system you use or build depend on what you need to typeset, for
instance if you need to implement a specific design (which changes over
time and therefore it should be easy to change your code) that is used
to process thousands of documents codes in a special way ...
> If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least
> write a nice library of general purpose typesetting
> algorithms that someone could use in the future to do
> what I want. Although I don't think giants should be on
> top of dwarfs...
... general purpose might not be what most users want; eventually luatex
will provide many typesetting library components, but in themselves they
are rather useless, as it's the integration that makes it useable
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-22 7:42 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2008-10-22 10:55 ` Mauricio
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Mauricio @ 2008-10-22 10:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
>>>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font
>>>> formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when
>>>> Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I
>>>> should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? (...)
>>> you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced
>>> font support etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of
>>> man-years
>> I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)
> well, for most users a macro is just an abstraction doing
> something typographically meaningfull; in that sense it's not
> much different from a library where you use some function call
> to achieve the same
What I like in non-macro programming is that typing (in the
programming sense, where elements can be used only in places where
their type, or class, is allowed) sometimes helps compose a lot of
complex things into really simple things. I believe the
translation of a document structure made of programming language
data into typographic data is easier (mostly easier to debug).
> no matter what programming tools you use, the problem remains
> the same (…) what system you use or build depend on what you
> need to typeset (…)
I do think there are language features that can make organization
of documents and use of techniques more powerfull. But I can only
prove that (even to myself) showing something working.
>> If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least write a
>> nice library of general purpose typesetting algorithms (…)
> ... general purpose might not be what most users want;
> eventually luatex will provide many typesetting library
> components, but in themselves they are rather useless, as it's
> the integration that makes it useable.
That's good enough for me. Which books and articles do those
people who are going to write those libraries read? Does TeX book
contain explanation of those algorithms? (Although I've seen that
Context can do things TeX itself can't, maybe there are new important
ideas around.)
Maurício
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-21 19:48 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
@ 2008-10-22 11:01 ` Mauricio
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Mauricio @ 2008-10-22 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
>> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
>> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
>> code of pdftex or luatex? I can try that, but that's going to be
>> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
>> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
>> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
>> algorithms).
> The beginning of the above paragraph is confused, but I have no time to
> disambiguate :-)
> What you are looking for sounds like a pipe dream. OTOH, see
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lout
>
> It is apparently a "Haskell-like" language that seems to roughly
> correspond to what you are looking for.
>
I have seen lout. It's document description language seems to use nice
ideas not used by TeX. But it's dead, since the author has left it to
pursue "the perfect typesetting language". Maybe he will have something
great to show in a few years.
Thanks,
Maurício
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-22 2:37 ` Aditya Mahajan
@ 2008-10-22 11:11 ` Mauricio
2008-10-22 11:35 ` Taco Hoekwater
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Mauricio @ 2008-10-22 11:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
>> I also like to write programs (I use a really
>> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
>> could get what I want if I write or translate
>> typography functions to that language, and then
>> write programs to generate documents? Where
>> could I find or where could I learn about such
>> functions?
>
> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big
> as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand
> than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
>
Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.
Maurício
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-22 11:11 ` Mauricio
@ 2008-10-22 11:35 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-10-22 12:13 ` luigi scarso
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2008-10-22 11:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Mauricio wrote:
>>> I also like to write programs (I use a really
>>> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
>>> could get what I want if I write or translate
>>> typography functions to that language, and then
>>> write programs to generate documents? Where
>>> could I find or where could I learn about such
>>> functions?
>> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big
>> as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand
>> than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
>>
>
> Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.
IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.
Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source
((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still
the best "beginner's book" if you want to start implementing a general
typesetting system. And then there is the design documentation of
Basser Lout and Ant, but most other published research except is in
scientific journals and/or PhD Theses.
Best wishes,
Taco
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* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-22 11:35 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2008-10-22 12:13 ` luigi scarso
2008-10-22 23:28 ` Maurício
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2008-10-22 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1115 bytes --]
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> Mauricio wrote:
> >>> I also like to write programs (I use a really
> >>> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
> >>> could get what I want if I write or translate
> >>> typography functions to that language, and then
> >>> write programs to generate documents? Where
> >>> could I find or where could I learn about such
> >>> functions?
> >> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as
> big
> >> as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand
> >> than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
> >>
> >
> > Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.
>
> IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.
>
> Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source
> ((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still
> the best "beginner's book" if you want to start implementing a general
> typesetting system.
And, for luatex,
http://groups.foundry.supelec.fr/modules/luatex/luatex.pdf
--
luigi
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: What should I learn?
2008-10-22 12:13 ` luigi scarso
@ 2008-10-22 23:28 ` Maurício
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Maurício @ 2008-10-22 23:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> >>> (...)
> >> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. (...)
>
> IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.
>
> Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source
> ((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still
> the best "beginner's book" (...)
> And, for luatex,
> http://groups.foundry.supelec.fr/modules/luatex/luatex.pdf
>
You guys are great. I could not expect to
find so much good stuff so well organized
in just two packages.
Thanks,
Maurício
___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-10-22 23:28 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2008-10-21 2:39 What should I learn? Maurício
2008-10-21 6:49 ` luigi scarso
2008-10-21 7:14 ` Frans Goddijn
2008-10-21 13:14 ` Mauricio
2008-10-21 14:26 ` Hans Hagen
2008-10-21 19:30 ` Mauricio
2008-10-22 7:42 ` Hans Hagen
2008-10-22 10:55 ` Mauricio
2008-10-21 19:48 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد
2008-10-22 11:01 ` Mauricio
2008-10-22 2:37 ` Aditya Mahajan
2008-10-22 11:11 ` Mauricio
2008-10-22 11:35 ` Taco Hoekwater
2008-10-22 12:13 ` luigi scarso
2008-10-22 23:28 ` Maurício
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