* suggestions for MKIV
@ 2009-08-19 12:41 Peter Münster
2009-08-19 12:49 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-08-19 12:58 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Peter Münster @ 2009-08-19 12:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ConTeXt list
Hello Hans,
Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
to change at least 2 things:
- let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
(the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
- let align=left|right behave correctly
Cheers, Peter
--
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
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* Re: suggestions for MKIV
2009-08-19 12:41 suggestions for MKIV Peter Münster
@ 2009-08-19 12:49 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-08-19 13:40 ` Hans Hagen
2009-08-19 12:58 ` Wolfgang Schuster
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2009-08-19 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi Peter,
Peter Münster wrote:
> Hello Hans,
>
> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
> to change at least 2 things:
>
> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
> in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
> (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
I have no very strong feelings about this one, but note that
such a change would mean a small loss of functionality.
(staying in vmode is not the same as \indent ...\par)
> - let align=left|right behave correctly
Switching the meaning of keywords that have existed for more than
a decade does not seem wise to me. If something has to be done,
then I would prefer scratching those two works altogether.
But practically, we already have
align=flushleft|flushright
and the manuals should document these instead of bare left|right.
Best wishes,
Taco
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: suggestions for MKIV
2009-08-19 12:49 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2009-08-19 13:40 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-08-19 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> Peter Münster wrote:
>> Hello Hans,
>>
>> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
>> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
>> to change at least 2 things:
>>
>> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
>> in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
>> (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
>
> I have no very strong feelings about this one, but note that
> such a change would mean a small loss of functionality.
> (staying in vmode is not the same as \indent ...\par)
indeed. changing externalgraphic might be harmless (btw, normally it's
never uses inline) but changing \framed is to tricky as it's a core
macro used all over the place
> > - let align=left|right behave correctly
>
> Switching the meaning of keywords that have existed for more than
> a decade does not seem wise to me. If something has to be done,
> then I would prefer scratching those two works altogether.
>
> But practically, we already have
>
> align=flushleft|flushright
>
> and the manuals should document these instead of bare left|right.
indeed
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: suggestions for MKIV
2009-08-19 12:41 suggestions for MKIV Peter Münster
2009-08-19 12:49 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2009-08-19 12:58 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2009-08-19 13:53 ` Peter Münster
1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2009-08-19 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 19.08.2009 um 14:41 schrieb Peter Münster:
> Hello Hans,
>
> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there
> are
> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of
> beginners -
> to change at least 2 things:
>
> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and
> \includegraphics
> in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
> (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
no, no and no!
\starttext
\placefigure{centered?}{\framed{vmode}}
\placefigure{centered?}{\dontleavehmode\framed{hmode}}
\stoptext
Wolfgang
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: suggestions for MKIV
2009-08-19 12:58 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2009-08-19 13:53 ` Peter Münster
2009-08-19 14:17 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Peter Münster @ 2009-08-19 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> > Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
> > already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
> > to change at least 2 things:
> >
> > - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
> > in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
> > (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
>
> no, no and no!
>
> \starttext
> \placefigure{centered?}{\framed{vmode}}
> \placefigure{centered?}{\dontleavehmode\framed{hmode}}
> \stoptext
Hello Wolfgang,
I remember well your example. And again, it's more intuitive, if
\placefigure{centered?}{test}
and
\placefigure{centered?}{\framed{test}}
and
\placefigure{centered?}{test \framed{test} test}
would behave the *same* way.
There is no real problem for *me*, but it's very difficult to explain to a
beginner (often coming from LaTeX), that here and there, a \dontleavehmode
is needed. For beginner, this behaviour creates headaches!
Cheers, Peter
--
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* Re: suggestions for MKIV
2009-08-19 13:53 ` Peter Münster
@ 2009-08-19 14:17 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2009-08-19 14:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Peter Münster wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>
>>> Since there is no more need, to keep compatibility with MKII (there are
>>> already a lot of differences), I suggest - for the benefit of beginners -
>>> to change at least 2 things:
>>>
>>> - let \framed or \externalfigure behave like \parbox and \includegraphics
>>> in LaTeX, i.e. no more need to put \dontleavehmode before the command
>>> (the current behaviour is just not very intuitive...)
>> no, no and no!
>>
>> \starttext
>> \placefigure{centered?}{\framed{vmode}}
>> \placefigure{centered?}{\dontleavehmode\framed{hmode}}
>> \stoptext
>
> Hello Wolfgang,
>
> I remember well your example. And again, it's more intuitive, if
>
> \placefigure{centered?}{test}
> and
> \placefigure{centered?}{\framed{test}}
> and
> \placefigure{centered?}{test \framed{test} test}
>
> would behave the *same* way.
>
>
> There is no real problem for *me*, but it's very difficult to explain to a
> beginner (often coming from LaTeX), that here and there, a \dontleavehmode
\framed starts with a \bgroup which makes it possible to do
\setbox\vbox\framed
so we cannot change that without breaking things
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________
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2009-08-19 12:41 suggestions for MKIV Peter Münster
2009-08-19 12:49 ` Taco Hoekwater
2009-08-19 13:40 ` Hans Hagen
2009-08-19 12:58 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2009-08-19 13:53 ` Peter Münster
2009-08-19 14:17 ` Hans Hagen
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