Sanskrit Devanagari characters

Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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Hey list,

I need to sprinkle my book with a few Sanskrit words written in the
Devanagari script. I don't need to write complete paragraphs in it, but
just a word or two inline.

Can anyone show me the ConTeXt source to do such a thing, with, say
"तरीकिन"?

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Khaled Hosny]

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On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 03:51:56PM -0700, Kip Warner wrote:
> Hey list,
> 
> I need to sprinkle my book with a few Sanskrit words written in the
> Devanagari script. I don't need to write complete paragraphs in it, but
> just a word or two inline.
> 
> Can anyone show me the ConTeXt source to do such a thing, with, say
> "तरीकिन"?

ConTeXt MkIV (assuming it is what you use) has no proper support for
Devanagari or other Indic scripts. Since you need only few words, you
can produce them externally (say ConTeXt MkII with XeTeX or Inkscape)
and include the resultant PDF as inline figure.

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Egyptian
 Arab

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 06:36, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 03:51:56PM -0700, Kip Warner wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone show me the ConTeXt source to do such a thing, with, say
>> "तरीकिन"?
>
> ConTeXt MkIV (assuming it is what you use) has no proper support for
> Devanagari or other Indic scripts. Since you need only few words, you
> can produce them externally (say ConTeXt MkII with XeTeX or Inkscape)
> and include the resultant PDF as inline figure.

Or produce the whole document with ConTeXt + XeTeX :)

I don't know to what extent the support is missing (how complex are
the typographical rules apart from just sticking the letters close
enough together and use ligatures), but there is also a chance that
the features are added if that is simple enough.

Mojca
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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Khaled Hosny]

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 07:58:38AM +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 06:36, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>
> I don't know to what extent the support is missing (how complex are
> the typographical rules apart from just sticking the letters close
> enough together and use ligatures), but there is also a chance that
> the features are added if that is simple enough.

AFAIK, Indic is the biggest OpenType mysteries and no one seems to get
it right, apart from MS who wrote the spec (there is even two
incompatible specs, abandoned one that is supported by FOSS
implementations and a new one that only MS implements.)

Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Egyptian
 Arab
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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Hans Hagen]

On 23-6-2011 8:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 07:58:38AM +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 06:36, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>
>> I don't know to what extent the support is missing (how complex are
>> the typographical rules apart from just sticking the letters close
>> enough together and use ligatures), but there is also a chance that
>> the features are added if that is simple enough.
>
> AFAIK, Indic is the biggest OpenType mysteries and no one seems to get
> it right, apart from MS who wrote the spec (there is even two
> incompatible specs, abandoned one that is supported by FOSS
> implementations and a new one that only MS implements.)

Indeed, and I even played with it for a while but as it needs additional 
coding (the font is just part of the game) I decided that it only made 
sense to spend time on it if there is real demand for it (plus enough 
info). It could make a pet project for winter evenings.  it's unlikely 
that I need it in a project so that doesn't help either.

Hans

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Daniel Stender]

I was planning to spend some time on at least typesetting Devanagari with ConTeXt in the
foreseenable future. I'll come back with this in a couple of weeks.

Greetings,
Daniel Stender

On 23.06.2011 09:38, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 23-6-2011 8:06, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 07:58:38AM +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 06:36, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know to what extent the support is missing (how complex are
>>> the typographical rules apart from just sticking the letters close
>>> enough together and use ligatures), but there is also a chance that
>>> the features are added if that is simple enough.
>>
>> AFAIK, Indic is the biggest OpenType mysteries and no one seems to get
>> it right, apart from MS who wrote the spec (there is even two
>> incompatible specs, abandoned one that is supported by FOSS
>> implementations and a new one that only MS implements.)
> 
> Indeed, and I even played with it for a while but as it needs additional coding (the font is just
> part of the game) I decided that it only made sense to spend time on it if there is real demand for
> it (plus enough info). It could make a pet project for winter evenings.  it's unlikely that I need
> it in a project so that doesn't help either.
> 
> Hans

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GPG key ID: 1654BD9C

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 14:05 +0200, Daniel Stender wrote:
> I was planning to spend some time on at least typesetting Devanagari with ConTeXt in the
> foreseenable future. I'll come back with this in a couple of weeks.
> 
> Greetings,
> Daniel Stender

Thanks Daniel. If you need a sample project to try it on, mine is of
course available.

Take care,

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:36 +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote:
> ConTeXt MkIV (assuming it is what you use) has no proper support for
> Devanagari or other Indic scripts. Since you need only few words, you
> can produce them externally (say ConTeXt MkII with XeTeX or Inkscape)
> and include the resultant PDF as inline figure.
> 
> Regards,
>  Khaled

Hey Khaled,

It's an inelegant, albeit workable solution - but perhaps the only way.
Thanks for your help.

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Aditya Mahajan]

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On Thu, 23 Jun 2011, Kip Warner wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:36 +0200, Khaled Hosny wrote:
>> ConTeXt MkIV (assuming it is what you use) has no proper support for
>> Devanagari or other Indic scripts. Since you need only few words, you
>> can produce them externally (say ConTeXt MkII with XeTeX or Inkscape)
>> and include the resultant PDF as inline figure.
>
> It's an inelegant, albeit workable solution - but perhaps the only way.
> Thanks for your help.

If you really have to do it this way .... the dev version of the filter 
module [1] supports pre and postambles (@Mojca: you needed these for 
gnuplot module). You can use:

\usemodule[filter]

\defineexternalfilter[mkii]
                      [filter={texexec --xtx --result=\externalfilteroutputfile  },
                       output=\externalfilterbasefile.pdf,
                       directory=output,
                       continue=yes,
                       readcommand=\readMKII]

\define[1]\readMKII
     {\dontleavehmode\externalfigure[#1][location=lohi]}

\startmkiipreamble
   \enableregime[utf-8]
   % I don't know how to setup typescripts with xetex
   % The rending is wrong. I think that one needs to enable
   % some language specific ligatures
   \font\devnagari="Lohit-Hindi" at 12pt
   \starttext
   \startTEXpage[foregroundstyle=\devnagari]
\stopmkiipreamble

\startmkiipostamble
   \stopTEXpage
   \stoptext
\stopmkiipostamble

\starttext

Check if this works.

\startmkii
\startlines
जाति न पूछो साधु की, पूछ लीजिए ग्‍यान।
मोल करो तलवार के, पड़ा रहन दो म्‍यान।।
\stoplines
\stopmkii

\stoptext
% \inlinemkii does not currently work with pre- and postamble

Aditya

[1]: https://github.com/adityam/filter/blob/dev/

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 03:06 -0400, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> If you really have to do it this way .... the dev version of the filter 
> module [1] supports pre and postambles (@Mojca: you needed these for 
> gnuplot module). You can use:
> 
> \usemodule[filter]
> 
> \defineexternalfilter[mkii]
>                       [filter={texexec --xtx --result=\externalfilteroutputfile  },
>                        output=\externalfilterbasefile.pdf,
>                        directory=output,
>                        continue=yes,
>                        readcommand=\readMKII]
> 
> \define[1]\readMKII
>      {\dontleavehmode\externalfigure[#1][location=lohi]}
> 
> \startmkiipreamble
>    \enableregime[utf-8]
>    % I don't know how to setup typescripts with xetex
>    % The rending is wrong. I think that one needs to enable
>    % some language specific ligatures
>    \font\devnagari="Lohit-Hindi" at 12pt
>    \starttext
>    \startTEXpage[foregroundstyle=\devnagari]
> \stopmkiipreamble
> 
> \startmkiipostamble
>    \stopTEXpage
>    \stoptext
> \stopmkiipostamble
> 
> \starttext
> 
> Check if this works.
> 
> \startmkii
> \startlines
> जाति न पूछो साधु की, पूछ लीजिए ग्‍यान।
> मोल करो तलवार के, पड़ा रहन दो म्‍यान।।
> \stoplines
> \stopmkii
> 
> \stoptext
> % \inlinemkii does not currently work with pre- and postamble
> 
> Aditya
> 
> [1]: https://github.com/adityam/filter/blob/dev/

Hey Aditya. That's pretty convuluted and a bit too much for one or two
words of Sanskrit in a document. I think I'll hold off until there is
native straightforward support. Thanks anyways.

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 07:58 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Or produce the whole document with ConTeXt + XeTeX :)

I would, but getting ConTeXt alone up and running has taken weeks.

> I don't know to what extent the support is missing (how complex are
> the typographical rules apart from just sticking the letters close
> enough together and use ligatures), but there is also a chance that
> the features are added if that is simple enough.
> 
> Mojca

You'd think it would just be something really simple like
\switchfont[devangari]
तरीकिन
\unswitchfont

It's very hard to find anything simple to do in ConTeXt.

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Mojca Miklavec]

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On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 02:22, Kip Warner wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 07:58 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> Or produce the whole document with ConTeXt + XeTeX :)
>
> I would, but getting ConTeXt alone up and running has taken weeks.

If you have it up and running, you can use it now also for XeTeX.

The only difference is that you have to run "texexec --xtx filename"
as opposed to "context filename".

> You'd think it would just be something really simple like
> \switchfont[devangari]
> तरीकिन
> \unswitchfont

With ConTeXt+XeTeX it boils down to:

% this is plain xetex font switch; see next example
\font\devanagari="Devanagari MT:script=Deva"
\starttext
{\devanagari तरीकिन}
\stoptext

Or the following one that could work in both XeTeX and LuaTeX with MKIV:

\definefontfeature[devanagari][script=deva]
\definefontsynonym[devanagari][name:Devanagari MT][features=devanagari]

\starttext
{\definedfont[devanagari] तरीकिन}
\stoptext

See attachments. XeTeX should work fine for you, the only question is
whether you need any MKIV features or not. If you do need them, you
could use Aditya's approach to insert snipets compiled with XeTeX (it
will happen automatically), if you don't need them you just take XeTeX
and you are done. The example that you sent also works fine in ConTeXt
MKIV, but as soon as it comes to slightly more complex ligatures,
LuaTeX won't render them properly without writing some additional
support.

Mojca

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sun, 26 Jun 2011, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> The example that you sent also works fine in ConTeXt MKIV,

They don't. Some of the vowels are combined incorrectly.

Aditya
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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 08:50, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2011, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> The example that you sent also works fine in ConTeXt MKIV,
>
> They don't. Some of the vowels are combined incorrectly.

Ah, ok, sorry, I overlooked that. The first one was ok and the second
one wasn't. (The one I copied from another source and attached in PDF
was obviously wrong, but I didn't spot the other error.)

Anyway, I never claimed that MKIV was usable. I only showed that it is
easy to switch do devanagari script :)

Mojca
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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Hans Hagen]

On 26-6-2011 8:50, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2011, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> The example that you sent also works fine in ConTeXt MKIV,
>
> They don't. Some of the vowels are combined incorrectly.

I think that the engine is supposed to do some character juggling 
beforehand (not encoded in the font).

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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On Sun, 2011-06-26 at 08:44 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 02:22, Kip Warner wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 07:58 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> >> Or produce the whole document with ConTeXt + XeTeX :)
> >
> > I would, but getting ConTeXt alone up and running has taken weeks.
> 
> If you have it up and running, you can use it now also for XeTeX.
> 
> The only difference is that you have to run "texexec --xtx filename"
> as opposed to "context filename".
> 
> > You'd think it would just be something really simple like
> > \switchfont[devangari]
> > तरीकिन
> > \unswitchfont
> 
> With ConTeXt+XeTeX it boils down to:
> 
> % this is plain xetex font switch; see next example
> \font\devanagari="Devanagari MT:script=Deva"
> \starttext
> {\devanagari तरीकिन}
> \stoptext
> 
> Or the following one that could work in both XeTeX and LuaTeX with MKIV:
> 
> \definefontfeature[devanagari][script=deva]
> \definefontsynonym[devanagari][name:Devanagari MT][features=devanagari]
> 
> \starttext
> {\definedfont[devanagari] तरीकिन}
> \stoptext
> 
> See attachments. XeTeX should work fine for you, the only question is
> whether you need any MKIV features or not. If you do need them, you
> could use Aditya's approach to insert snipets compiled with XeTeX (it
> will happen automatically), if you don't need them you just take XeTeX
> and you are done. The example that you sent also works fine in ConTeXt
> MKIV, but as soon as it comes to slightly more complex ligatures,
> LuaTeX won't render them properly without writing some additional
> support.
> 
> Mojca

Thanks Mojca. The problem is it looks like XeTeX may not fully support
some of the features I need like mathematical characters and such yet.
Although I have no doubt it probably will eventually.

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 04:10, Kip Warner wrote:
>
> The problem is it looks like XeTeX may not fully support
> some of the features I need like mathematical characters and such yet.

What mathematical characters do you miss?

Mojca
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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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On Mon, 2011-06-27 at 09:35 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 04:10, Kip Warner wrote:
> >
> > The problem is it looks like XeTeX may not fully support
> > some of the features I need like mathematical characters and such yet.
> 
> What mathematical characters do you miss?
> 
> Mojca
> 

I actually haven't tried yet, but just read that it is lacking full
support for that. I am wary to use XeTeX because every new small task
with ConTeXt always ends up taking hours and hours to get working from
putting a simple picture on a page to changing a colour of something.

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 03:39, Kip Warner wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-06-27 at 09:35 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 04:10, Kip Warner wrote:
>> >
>> > The problem is it looks like XeTeX may not fully support
>> > some of the features I need like mathematical characters and such yet.
>>
>> What mathematical characters do you miss?
>
> I actually haven't tried yet, but just read that it is lacking full
> support for that.

Eeeeem. This used to be the case in early days of XeTeX.

At the moment it is true that ConTeXt has no OpenType Math implemented
for XeTeX, but this means that math should work equally well as in
pdfTeX. XeTeX also has bugs in OpenType Math, but for the reason just
told, this should not affect you.

On the other hand if you need other MKIV features that might indeed be
a problem.

> I am wary to use XeTeX because every new small task
> with ConTeXt always ends up taking hours and hours to get working from
> putting a simple picture on a page to changing a colour of something.

Did you ever try to change a colour of title and background in LaTeX? :) :) :)

Mojca
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Re: Sanskrit Devanagari characters

[Kip Warner]

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On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 03:51 +0200, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On the other hand if you need other MKIV features that might indeed be
> a problem.

Indeed. =(

> Did you ever try to change a colour of title and background in LaTeX? :) :) :)

I can only imagine ;)

-- 
Kip Warner -- Software Engineer
OpenPGP encrypted/signed mail preferred
http://www.thevertigo.com

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