Producing dvi

Producing dvi

[Michail Vidiassov]

Dear All,

is it possible to produce dvi in mkiv?
What is the command line?
Are there limitations (like no opentype, no unicode math)?

DVI has to be fit for dvips use.

The reason for my question - Asymptote vector drawing tool
sets labels by processing PS output of LaTeX and relies on the PS
being made by dvips.

       Sincerely, Michail

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Re: Producing dvi

[Hans Hagen]

Michail Vidiassov wrote:
> Dear All,
> 
> is it possible to produce dvi in mkiv?
> What is the command line?
> Are there limitations (like no opentype, no unicode math)?
> 
> DVI has to be fit for dvips use.
> 
> The reason for my question - Asymptote vector drawing tool
> sets labels by processing PS output of LaTeX and relies on the PS
> being made by dvips.

you can produce dvi when you force the pdfoutput mode but you will 
probably get errors reported

best convert that ps to pdf than and include the pdf

Hans


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Re: Producing dvi

[Michail Vidiassov]

Dear Hans,

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Hans Hagen wrote:

>> is it possible to produce dvi in mkiv?
>> DVI has to be fit for dvips use.
>> 
>> The reason for my question - Asymptote vector drawing tool
>> sets labels by processing PS output of LaTeX and relies on the PS
>> being made by dvips.
>
> you can produce dvi when you force the pdfoutput mode but you will probably 
> get errors reported
>
> best convert that ps to pdf than and include the pdf

No, no, no!
I have been misunderstood!

The problem is not how to include Asymptote output into ConTeXt.
If it is 2D - then it is just normal PDF, that can be included as usual.
If it is 3D - I have the code, modeled after movie inclusion (thanks Hans,
you fixed it when I have mentioned that it was broken in mkiv).

What I am talking about now is how to typeset labels within Asymptote by ConTeXt.
Asymptote takes label text, wraps it into a minimal document and feeds to 
a TeX engine, gets DVI, processes it with dvips, redefines some PS 
commands (here it relies on the dvips specifics) so that the information
on the resulting path is being printed and runs the PS file through 
ghostscript. Thus Asymptote gets the information of the curves the label
consists of. So if it is possible to feed ConTeXt output to dvips, than 
it'll be easy to adopt Asymptote to use ConTeXt.

If mkiv does not produce dvi (now? never will? not intended to?),
what about mkii?

            Sincerely, Michail

PS. The black side of mirgation from another system - you are both a 
novice and need to setup/modify your new tool in unevident ways to
translate your existing work into new terms...
You barely drive but need to fit that trusty Gatling on the car's roof :(
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Re: Producing dvi

[Hans Hagen]

Michail Vidiassov wrote:

> If mkiv does not produce dvi (now? never will? not intended to?),
> what about mkii?
> 
>            Sincerely, Michail

sure, mkii can produce dvi for several drivers

\setupoutput[dvips]

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Producing dvi

[Michail Vidiassov]

Dear Hans,

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Hans Hagen wrote:

>> If mkiv does not produce dvi (now? never will? not intended to?),
>> what about mkii?
>
> sure, mkii can produce dvi for several drivers

And what about the first part of the question?
The (negative?) answer is implied in your other post,
but what is the official position (if any)?

        Sincerely, Michail
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Re: Producing dvi

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:39:58 -0600, Michail Vidiassov <master@iaas.msu.ru>  
wrote:

>>> If mkiv does not produce dvi (now? never will? not intended to?),
>>> what about mkii?
>>
>> sure, mkii can produce dvi for several drivers
>
> And what about the first part of the question?

mkiv does not now, probably never will, and is not intended, to support  
dvi ;-)

dvi is considered obsolete. Maybe newer technologies like xps -- which  
claims better integration with opentype etc -- will be supported sometime  
down the road... no time soon.

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: Producing dvi

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 15:39, Michail Vidiassov wrote:
> Dear Hans,
>
> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>>> If mkiv does not produce dvi (now? never will? not intended to?),
>>> what about mkii?
>>
>> sure, mkii can produce dvi for several drivers
>
> And what about the first part of the question?
> The (negative?) answer is implied in your other post,
> but what is the official position (if any)?

The problem is not writing DVI file per se, but conversion from DVI to
some reasonable format (both ps and pdf are problematic). As soon as
you want to use OpenType fonts and their features, dvips will not be
able to convert the DVI to valid PS any more unless someone writes
extension for it (which is very unlikely to happen).

If you insist in DVI and OpenType fonts, you could just as well take a
look at ConTeXt+XeTeX that is able to generate xdv files (extended
dvi), but I can guarantee you problems. dvips is not able to handle
XDV files.

If Asymptote is not able to handle PDF files, maybe Asymptote itself
would need extensions. (When I last tried to use Asymptote I gave up
since I was not able to figure out how to install it and started using
other tools.)

But as far as I know, if the only critical step is conversion of font
outlines into curves, gs is able to read PDF files as well. I see no
reason why one would require PS unless one uses very basic techniques
for document manipulation (it's a bit easier to parse and work with PS
than it is to work with PDF, but when it's done inside a bigger
project it probably pays off to support both; I guess that the
overhead should not be that big).

If you would like asymptote to handle ConTeXt labels you should start
with mkii. But honestly: I don't really see when LaTeX for typesetting
labels would not suffice. ConTeXt is extremely good at page
formatting, but when it comes to typeset "$A$" for point labels, I
would not mind using LaTeX (If it's only about OpenType you cannot do
anything unless Asymptote gets extended, but even then you could use
XeTeX.)

There definitely are few exceptions and there's definitely an
extremely good feeling if you're aware that the tool uses ConTeXt in
the background ... but that's about all about it.

But the answer to your question about mkiv and dvi remains: no, it
won't be supported, unless someone provides sufficient funding or
writes amazing/extremely useful tools that could cope with XDV format
and do something useful with it. Feel free to search dev-luatex
archives for lenghty discussions about the issue.

Mojca
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Re: Producing dvi

[Michail Vidiassov]

Dear Mojca,

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> If Asymptote is not able to handle PDF files, maybe Asymptote itself
> would need extensions. (When I last tried to use Asymptote I gave up
> since I was not able to figure out how to install it and started using
> other tools.)

This (installation problems) is part of the question why typesetting in 
Asymptote with ConTeXt is desirable - no need to maintain separate LaTeX 
installation, avoiding mixup with older version of ConTeXt that comes with 
it, etc.

And at this moment Asymptote is (almost) the only tool that makes 3D PDF
directly (without $$$$ Windows-only converter like Acrobat), is 
Metapost-like and not some CAD monster or VRML fossil.

> If you would like asymptote to handle ConTeXt labels you should start
> with mkii. But honestly: I don't really see when LaTeX for typesetting
> labels would not suffice. ConTeXt is extremely good at page
> formatting, but when it comes to typeset "$A$" for point labels, I
> would not mind using LaTeX (If it's only about OpenType you cannot do
> anything unless Asymptote gets extended, but even then you could use
> XeTeX.)

Apart from maintenance problems with the zoo of tools, Asymptote aspires
for high quality of labels (and has invested considerable effort to 
preserve it in 3D mode), that implies that labels are to be in the
same font as the main text and/or follow some predetermined style.
That requirement is not easy to follow consistently if different tools are 
used to typeset body of the article and labels on pics.
http://tug.org/pracjourn/2005-1/levine/levine.pdf

> But as far as I know, if the only critical step is conversion of font
> outlines into curves, gs is able to read PDF files as well. I see no
> reason why one would require PS unless one uses very basic techniques
> for document manipulation (it's a bit easier to parse and work with PS
> than it is to work with PDF, but when it's done inside a bigger
> project it probably pays off to support both; I guess that the
> overhead should not be that big).

As a side note - PS is a programming language very well suited for just 
this kind of problems. ;)

              Sincerely, Michail
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Re: Producing dvi

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 17:03, Michail Vidiassov wrote:
> Dear Mojca,
>
> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> If Asymptote is not able to handle PDF files, maybe Asymptote itself
>> would need extensions. (When I last tried to use Asymptote I gave up
>> since I was not able to figure out how to install it and started using
>> other tools.)
>
> This (installation problems) is part of the question why typesetting in
> Asymptote with ConTeXt is desirable - no need to maintain separate LaTeX
> installation, avoiding mixup with older version of ConTeXt that comes with
> it, etc.

I was mostly talking about dependency problems on libraries when
compiling asymptote (I have no idea what libraries it depends on, but
there are definitely many of them). If I want to install asymptote
with packaging system (like macports), then I *have to* install some
ancient version of TeX Live (which is great since I now need to have
three copies of TeX Live on hard-drive and without ever using it). If
I want to compile asymptote myself, I would drive me crazy before I
would figure out all the library dependencies.

It would be really nice if someone would be ready to spend time to
include asymptote in TeX Live. That would make installation thousand
times easier.

> And at this moment Asymptote is (almost) the only tool that makes 3D PDF
> directly (without $$$$ Windows-only converter like Acrobat), is
> Metapost-like and not some CAD monster or VRML fossil.

No doubt about it.

I'm trying to survive by using some random mixture of tools like
gnuplot, povray, matlab, mathematica, raw EPS, ... Mathematica has
become really impressive recently and is able to export 3D figures,
but it's not free. I wanted to use asymptote, but I had to finish
something until the deadline and didn't have the necessary time left
to install and learn it.

>> If you would like asymptote to handle ConTeXt labels you should start
>> with mkii. But honestly: I don't really see when LaTeX for typesetting
>> labels would not suffice. ConTeXt is extremely good at page
>> formatting, but when it comes to typeset "$A$" for point labels, I
>> would not mind using LaTeX (If it's only about OpenType you cannot do
>> anything unless Asymptote gets extended, but even then you could use
>> XeTeX.)
>
> Apart from maintenance problems with the zoo of tools, Asymptote aspires
> for high quality of labels (and has invested considerable effort to preserve
> it in 3D mode), that implies that labels are to be in the
> same font as the main text and/or follow some predetermined style.

True, but usually setting the right font is doable.

> As a side note - PS is a programming language very well suited for just this
> kind of problems. ;)

I agree, but PS is easy to write, while parsing someone else's code
automatically is challenging, not to say impossible.

--------------------

In any case, I would recommend you to contact asymptote developers.
There's a bunch of LaTeX commands that are being harcoded in asymptote
source, and those would have to be rewritten and made configurable.
Next, you'll probably need some switch to trigger executing ConTeXt
instead of LaTeX. There is some split betwen plain TeX and LaTeX, but
you'll need a bit more work to include ConTeXt support as well.

I don't know how exactly Asymptote works. You said that it uses dvi,
but I have seen the word "xelatex" in the source, so there's no reason
why you couldn't use LuaTeX. XeLaTeX doesn't generate dvi files
either. Ask the developers if it is possible to use PDF. It will be
much much easier if you could use PDF since you could have all the
three engines supported in a single move. If you'll start with dvi,
you'll have to reconfigure everything later to make it work with XeTeX
and/or LuaTeX.

Mojca
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Re: Producing dvi

[Michail Vidiassov]

Dear Mojca and All,

On Sun, 19 Apr 2009, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

>>> (When I last tried to use Asymptote I gave up
>>> since I was not able to figure out how to install it and started using
>>> other tools.)
>>
> It would be really nice if someone would be ready to spend time to
> include asymptote in TeX Live. That would make installation thousand
> times easier.

There seems to be a feud between grand wizzards of Asymptote and TeXLive

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.tex/browse_thread/thread/37143f0885a4d884?hl=en#

      Sincerely, Michail

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