mkiv

mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

Currently most mails on the list about mkiv and luatex concern 
installation and fonts. This is ok since quite some code is related to 
that. The next couple of months other (sub)systems will be activated (or 
discovered by users since quite some stuff is already there).

- reading from other media: reading from zip files is possible, reading 
from e.g. http also if you have curl installed

- color support: mkiv will use attributes; this works already on my 
machine; other features (outline) and such will follow this route

- spacing, vertical as well as horizontal (inter character spacing, 
french punctuation), it's there but needs integration

- indexing: is already using lua, needs to be tested and we need tables 
for languages

- numbering lines etc: work in progress

- verbatim: new pretty printers will show up (i expect users to step in 
once we have the api ready)

- synchronization of text streams, multiple text streams etc ... work in 
progress

- sectioning and list handling, needs some rework for mkii too

- debugging and error handling: there (try \showdebuginfo \page or maybe 
\overloaderror \crap); we need a way to refresh browser windows 
automatically

- runtime feature toggling and font extensions: work in progress

- etc etc

maybe we should set up a wiki page where users can make a wishlist for 
fundamental features cq. exploring features under construction

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[fdu.xiaojf]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Currently most mails on the list about mkiv and luatex concern 
> installation and fonts. This is ok since quite some code is related to 
> that. The next couple of months other (sub)systems will be activated (or 
> discovered by users since quite some stuff is already there).
> 
> - reading from other media: reading from zip files is possible, reading 
> from e.g. http also if you have curl installed
> 
> - color support: mkiv will use attributes; this works already on my 
> machine; other features (outline) and such will follow this route
> 
> - spacing, vertical as well as horizontal (inter character spacing, 
> french punctuation), it's there but needs integration
> 
> - indexing: is already using lua, needs to be tested and we need tables 
> for languages
> 
> - numbering lines etc: work in progress
> 
> - verbatim: new pretty printers will show up (i expect users to step in 
> once we have the api ready)
> 
> - synchronization of text streams, multiple text streams etc ... work in 
> progress
> 
> - sectioning and list handling, needs some rework for mkii too
> 
> - debugging and error handling: there (try \showdebuginfo \page or maybe 
> \overloaderror \crap); we need a way to refresh browser windows 
> automatically
> 
> - runtime feature toggling and font extensions: work in progress
> 
> - etc etc
> 
> maybe we should set up a wiki page where users can make a wishlist for 
> fundamental features cq. exploring features under construction
> 
> Hans
> 
How about the support for Chinese ? Will it be enhanced or just remains the 
same with ConTeXt ?

And can mkiv produce pdf files in which the Chinese characters can be selected 
and copied to other place ?

Thanks.
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Re: mkiv

[luigi scarso]

> maybe we should set up a wiki page where users can make a wishlist for
> fundamental features cq. exploring features under construction
>
> Hans

Yes, at least for me.

-- 
luigi
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Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

fdu.xiaojf@gmail.com wrote:

> How about the support for Chinese ? Will it be enhanced or just remains the 
> same with ConTeXt ?

sure, a matter of time ... i need to implement the right methods

best prepare some samples (opentype.truetype font, utf-8 based input, etc)

> And can mkiv produce pdf files in which the Chinese characters can be selected 
> and copied to other place ?

indeed

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: mkiv

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Currently most mails on the list about mkiv and luatex concern
> installation and fonts. This is ok since quite some code is related to
> that. The next couple of months other (sub)systems will be activated (or
> discovered by users since quite some stuff is already there).

This is great.

> - sectioning and list handling, needs some rework for mkii too

There needs to be better support for section separators. Right now, 
section separators work for section heads, but modifying separtors for 
referencing sections is very ugly. Here is what IEEE publications 
want, which is hard to do right now:

While placing section heads, do not use parent number. So sections are 
I, II, III, etc., subsections are A, B, C, etc., subsubsections are 
\alpha), \beta), etc. But when you are referencing sections, you need 
to have sepators. So a subsection needs to be referred to as 
I-B.\gamma. Right now, there is no easy way to do this.

>
> - debugging and error handling: there (try \showdebuginfo \page or maybe
> \overloaderror \crap); we need a way to refresh browser windows
> automatically

This is wonderful. Is the error format configurable? Do you plan to 
support something other than XML output? HTML display of errors is 
great, but for my workflow, I want something tightly integrated with 
the editor. Vim allows that, provided I can write rules which tell vim 
how tex errors look. Currently, it is really hard to write something 
that captures all the tex errors. Hopefully, writing something for an 
xml error will be easy. But if it is possible, the easiest will be "C" 
compiler type errors: "Error on line xx of file yy:" With the 
errortype-c (or something like that) flag to pdftex, for some errors 
yo get this, but for others you do not (File ended while scanning 
\startbuffer, etc).
>
> maybe we should set up a wiki page where users can make a wishlist for
> fundamental features cq. exploring features under construction
>
My other set of requests is about two column design. The 
\startcolumns ... \stopcolumns works, but does not support footnotes 
on each column. With columnsets (with a bit of tweaking) you can get 
two column footnotes, but columsets do not seem to like the rest of my 
setup (equation run over the top and bottom marins). I have never 
managed to nail it down precisely.

And then there are floats. topfloats should be always below a chapter 
or a title, and checking indentation after top and bottom floats.

Let me know when you get to columns and floats, and I can provide some 
details, and so some testing.

Aditya

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 4/2/22 09:40, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> [..]
> and how about
>
> context --luatex --generate

Many thanks for your reply, Hans.

I’m afraid it doesn’t work. It still generates data under
$HOME/.texlive2021/, but it tries to read data (to generate the format
file) from $HOME/backup-context/01062022_context/, which is a backup I
have, instead of $HOME/context (which is the actual directory where
ConTeXt is installed).

Even with the HOME/backup-context/ directory hidden, I get the following
error when Irun "context --luatex document" (after having run "context
--luatex --generate"):

system          > lua > loading of file
'context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/luat-exe.lua' failed:
	cannot open
context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/luat-exe.lua: No such
file or directory
resolvers       > lua > loading file
'context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/luat-exe.lua' failed

error loading file: luat-exe.lua (aborting)resolvers       | formats |
resolvers       | formats | binary path      : /usr/bin
resolvers       | formats | format path      :
/home/ousia/.texlive2021/texmf-var/luatex-cache/context/d10b607aa0e9d13dde6602f491b76cbc/formats/luatex
resolvers       | formats | luatex engine    : luatex
resolvers       | formats | lua startup file :
/home/ousia/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/luat-cod.lua
resolvers       | formats | context file     :
/home/ousia/context/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkiv/cont-en.mkiv
resolvers       | formats | run time         : 0.100 seconds
resolvers       | formats | return value     : okay
resolvers       | formats |
mtx-context     | error, no format found with name: cont-en, aborting
system          | total runtime: 1.505 seconds

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
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Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 4/1/2022 9:19 PM, Denis Maier via ntg-context wrote:
> Same here... I haven't managed to run mkiv for months. Not a huge deal, but anyway.
> 
> Best,
> Denis
> ________________________________________
> Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> im Auftrag von Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
> Gesendet: Freitag, 1. April 2022 20:37:30
> An: Hans Hagen via ntg-context
> Cc: Pablo Rodriguez
> Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] mkiv
> 
> On 4/1/22 18:20, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
>> [...]
>> So, today is the day we kind of formally freeze MKIV.
> 
> Just a comment on MkIV.
> 
> I don’t remember exactly, but I’m afraid that "context --luatex
> document" hasn’t been working on my computers (either running Linux or
> Windows) for months now.
> 
> This isn’t important for me, but just in case it may be relevant for you.
> 
> If I run "context --luatex document", I get a new directory
> '$HOME/.texlive2021/texmf-var' created (which includes a "luatex-cache"
> directory inside)
> 
> When I run "mtxrun --generate", all required files are generated in
> "$HOME/context/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache".
> 
> I wonder why "mtrun --generate" doesn’t generate a "luatex-cache"
> directory in the same directory containing "luametatex-cache".

and how about

context --luatex --generate

> BTW, the '$HOME/.texlive2021/texmf-var/luatex-cache/" directory only
> contains an empty 'context/d10b607aa0e9d13dde6602f491b76cbc/trees/' path.
> 
> Just in case it may be relevant and many thanks for ConTeXt,
> 
> Pablo
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

Same here... I haven't managed to run mkiv for months. Not a huge deal, but anyway.

Best,
Denis
________________________________________
Von: ntg-context <ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl> im Auftrag von Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
Gesendet: Freitag, 1. April 2022 20:37:30
An: Hans Hagen via ntg-context
Cc: Pablo Rodriguez
Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] mkiv

On 4/1/22 18:20, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> [...]
> So, today is the day we kind of formally freeze MKIV.

Just a comment on MkIV.

I don’t remember exactly, but I’m afraid that "context --luatex
document" hasn’t been working on my computers (either running Linux or
Windows) for months now.

This isn’t important for me, but just in case it may be relevant for you.

If I run "context --luatex document", I get a new directory
'$HOME/.texlive2021/texmf-var' created (which includes a "luatex-cache"
directory inside)

When I run "mtxrun --generate", all required files are generated in
"$HOME/context/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache".

I wonder why "mtrun --generate" doesn’t generate a "luatex-cache"
directory in the same directory containing "luametatex-cache".

BTW, the '$HOME/.texlive2021/texmf-var/luatex-cache/" directory only
contains an empty 'context/d10b607aa0e9d13dde6602f491b76cbc/trees/' path.

Just in case it may be relevant and many thanks for ConTeXt,

Pablo
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 4/1/22 18:20, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> [...]
> So, today is the day we kind of formally freeze MKIV.

Just a comment on MkIV.

I don’t remember exactly, but I’m afraid that "context --luatex
document" hasn’t been working on my computers (either running Linux or
Windows) for months now.

This isn’t important for me, but just in case it may be relevant for you.

If I run "context --luatex document", I get a new directory
'$HOME/.texlive2021/texmf-var' created (which includes a "luatex-cache"
directory inside)

When I run "mtxrun --generate", all required files are generated in
"$HOME/context/tex/texmf-cache/luametatex-cache".

I wonder why "mtrun --generate" doesn’t generate a "luatex-cache"
directory in the same directory containing "luametatex-cache".

BTW, the '$HOME/.texlive2021/texmf-var/luatex-cache/" directory only
contains an empty 'context/d10b607aa0e9d13dde6602f491b76cbc/trees/' path.

Just in case it may be relevant and many thanks for ConTeXt,

Pablo
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Rik Kabel via ntg-context]

On 2022-04-01 12:20, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Normally when we're in the 2022 TeXlive code freeze period, there is a 
> snapshot release but because there hasn't been that many changes, 
> maybe a few patches, in MKIV there is no real snapshot this year. But 
> for the sake of consistency we can consider today's version that 
> snapshot.
>
> It basically means that MKIV has been frozen and is even more frozen 
> now. All new stuff goes in MKXL (aka LMTX) and I suppose that next 
> year we let that end up in TeXlive alongside frozen MKII and MKIV. Of 
> course bugs will be fixed as usual.
>
> So, today is the day we kind of formally freeze MKIV.
>
> Hans
>
>
With the freeze of MKIV, how will modules be managed? LMTX still ships 
without. A while back 
(https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg100179.html) it was 
suggest that this would, at some point, change.

-- 
Rik

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mkiv

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi,

Normally when we're in the 2022 TeXlive code freeze period, there is a 
snapshot release but because there hasn't been that many changes, maybe 
a few patches, in MKIV there is no real snapshot this year. But for the 
sake of consistency we can consider today's version that snapshot.

It basically means that MKIV has been frozen and is even more frozen 
now. All new stuff goes in MKXL (aka LMTX) and I suppose that next year 
we let that end up in TeXlive alongside frozen MKII and MKIV. Of course 
bugs will be fixed as usual.

So, today is the day we kind of formally freeze MKIV.

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

I want to switch to the new structure code in mkiv. This can result in 
some temporary problems (probably mostly commands that i forgot to port)
but i need the switch in order to be able to optimize and cleanup that 
code.

So best make a copy of your minimal.

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> at the context meeting it was concluded that there is no reason for mkiv
>> to be fully downward compatible.
>>
>> one thing that i consider removing is the 'background=screen' option
>> from \framed. After all, screens internally already are just grayscales
>> and the old 'method' mechanism is no longer valid given postscript and
>> pdf technologies
>>
>> in practice it means that those who use it (in mkiv) will have to use
>> colors (grayscales) instead (the last time that i used screens myself is
>>  sometime last century)
> 
> Can you now add left|right|top|bottomoffset to \framed.

maybe when core-rul gets two versions, mkii and mkiv (and even then i 
need to check for interferences); the whole structure system comes first 
(sectioning, lists, references, numbering, blocks etc)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Wolfgang Schuster]

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> at the context meeting it was concluded that there is no reason for mkiv
> to be fully downward compatible.
>
> one thing that i consider removing is the 'background=screen' option
> from \framed. After all, screens internally already are just grayscales
> and the old 'method' mechanism is no longer valid given postscript and
> pdf technologies
>
> in practice it means that those who use it (in mkiv) will have to use
> colors (grayscales) instead (the last time that i used screens myself is
>  sometime last century)

Can you now add left|right|top|bottomoffset to \framed.

Wolfgang
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Peter Münster wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 17 2008, Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
>> at the context meeting it was concluded that there is no reason for mkiv 
>> to be fully downward compatible.
> 
> Great!
> Could you then also repair the "align=left|right" issue?

no, because that would affect too many existing things

also, you can use

flushleft
flushright
center

which more reflect the result

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: mkiv

[Peter Münster]

On Fri, Oct 17 2008, Hans Hagen wrote:

> at the context meeting it was concluded that there is no reason for mkiv 
> to be fully downward compatible.

Great!
Could you then also repair the "align=left|right" issue?
Thanks, Peter

-- 
http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

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mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

at the context meeting it was concluded that there is no reason for mkiv 
to be fully downward compatible.

one thing that i consider removing is the 'background=screen' option 
from \framed. After all, screens internally already are just grayscales 
and the old 'method' mechanism is no longer valid given postscript and 
pdf technologies

in practice it means that those who use it (in mkiv) will have to use 
colors (grayscales) instead (the last time that i used screens myself is 
  sometime last century)

Hans


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Re: mkiv

[Peter Münster]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 10:39:50PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 
> (Disabling regimes would be an interesting experiment too :-) :-) :-)
> Not that I was the one who has forced their support :-)

Indeed, since now we're living in an utf-world!

> > - it's easy to burn a CD-ROM with an old distribution to recompile old
> >   documents
> 
> Not necessary, since you might also need older binaries and fonts.

More precisely: "TeX-distribution" (not "ConTeXt-distribution")

Cheers, Peter

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Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> (Disabling regimes would be an interesting experiment too :-) :-) :-)
> Not that I was the one who has forced their support :-)

you mean in mkiv? the price is not that big there (also, it's of by 
default)

> But yes - before recompiling an old document, a backup is not a bad idea at all.

also keep in mind that context is just part of a bigger thing ... fonts 
(under development, names change, places change, metrics change), 
patterns, auxiliary files (map files etc) ...

Hans


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Re: mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On 12/12/07, Peter Münster wrote:
> Hello,
>
> In general, I vote against keeping such features just for some old
> documents, because:

Also, if one decides to use LuaTeX/XeTeX instead of pdfTeX (s)he must
have some reason and might be willing to do some minor changes to the
document if needed.

(Disabling regimes would be an interesting experiment too :-) :-) :-)
Not that I was the one who has forced their support :-)

> - it's easy to burn a CD-ROM with an old distribution to recompile old
>   documents

Not necessary, since you might also need older binaries and fonts.

> - it's easy to keep the pdf somewhere (that's what I do)

[not to be taken too seriously:]

The bad news is that PDFs are usually kept exactly at the place where
a new version of the document (even if it cannot be compiled at all)
overwrites the old one (that's what I usually do/what TeX does for me
:). And once ConTeXt starts complaining, it's already too late (the
file has gone). :) :) :)

But yes - before recompiling an old document, a backup is not a bad idea at all.

Mojca
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Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Peter Münster wrote:

> ! Missing \endcsname inserted.
> <to be read again> 
>                    \def 
> \dohandlemathpunctuation #1#2->\def 

could be a bug, or a changed definition of something math ..

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Re: mkiv

[Peter Münster]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2007 at 09:26:08AM +0100, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
> 
> Another German, and I agree, too, with every point Peter makes. As an  
> addition: I would vote for keeping "` and "'. I know that  
> \quotation{ } is better and have been using it for a while now, but I  
> also know that many older documents still have the old quotes, and  
> when I began using TeX, they were considered standard. I think it's  
> better to gently convince users to switch to the better style, not  
> force them by breaking their documents.

Hello,

In general, I vote against keeping such features just for some old
documents, because:
- recompiling an old document with a recent ConTeXt-version, will give you
  problems in almost every case anyway, since ConTeXt is evolving
  constantly, old bug get fixed, new bugs come, workarounds have to be
  adapted
- it's easy to translate old documents with tools like sed
- it's easy to burn a CD-ROM with an old distribution to recompile old
  documents
- it's easy to keep the pdf somewhere (that's what I do)


Just to give you an example: my brother's thesis compiles fine with version
2007.01.12, but when I try it today, it stops with

! Missing \endcsname inserted.
<to be read again> 
                   \def 
\dohandlemathpunctuation #1#2->\def 
                                    \next {\csname \ifx \space \nexttoken #2...
<argument> \??fs chemic,
                        bib,typearea,chromato
\ifundefined #1->\unless \ifcsname #1
                                     \endcsname 
\truefilename #1->\ifundefined {\??fs #1}
                                         #1\else \truefilename {\csname \??f...
<to be read again> ...hemic,bib,typearea,chromato}
                                                  .}
...
l.55 


Cheers, Peter

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Re: mkiv

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Am 12.12.2007 um 07:50 schrieb Peter Münster:

> I'm german, and I don't see any reason for keeping those mappings.
>
>>> I would vote against supporting them ("a, "o, "u) in LuaTeX, but  
>>> it's
>>> not up to me.
>>
>> nobody voted in favor so far ...
>
> I vote against too.

Same for me.


> The only mappings, that make sense to me:
> -- and --- since it's difficult to distinguish them from "-" in a
> text-editor
> and "~" since it's difficult to distinguish the utf unbreakable  
> space from
> normal space in a text-editor.

That's exactly my experience too.
These mappings are used and still needed.

Steffen
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Re: mkiv

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi Wolfgang,


Am 08.12.2007 um 10:18 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:

> 2007/12/8, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net>:
> I think he mean the old methods write for example umlauts and other
> accents. You write "a to get ä, "s to get ß ...
>
> The last user how needed this suport for german was Steffen Wolfrum


Did I? I use utf-8 (or at least texnansi) encoded documents as  
input ... so no need for "a to get ä, "s to get ß at all!!!


> but the active characters are disabled by default and ConTeXt has it's
> commands to allow hyphens before compund words.


... or do you mean something else (hyphens? compound words?)?


Steffen

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Re: mkiv

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Dec 12, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Peter Münster wrote:

> I vote against too.
>
> The only mappings, that make sense to me:
> -- and --- since it's difficult to distinguish them from "-" in a
> text-editor
> and "~" since it's difficult to distinguish the utf unbreakable  
> space from
> normal space in a text-editor.

Another German, and I agree, too, with every point Peter makes. As an  
addition: I would vote for keeping "` and "'. I know that  
\quotation{ } is better and have been using it for a while now, but I  
also know that many older documents still have the old quotes, and  
when I began using TeX, they were considered standard. I think it's  
better to gently convince users to switch to the better style, not  
force them by breaking their documents.

My two cents, best wishes

Thomas
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Re: mkiv

[Peter Münster]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 11:07:45PM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
> > Then only "a, "o, "u, "s are left for German. (I already wanted to ask
> > for "c -> č, "s -> š and "z ->ž mappings for Slovenian once, but I
> > have changed my mind. I find it extremely ugly, although I used to
> > write that way before someone has told me about
> > \usepackage[cp1250]{inputenc}
> 
> i hear no germans climing that this should stay ... after all, it's a 
> rather ancient way of dealing with things

Hello Hans,

I'm german, and I don't see any reason for keeping those mappings.

> > I would vote against supporting them ("a, "o, "u) in LuaTeX, but it's
> > not up to me.
> 
> nobody voted in favor so far ...

I vote against too.

The only mappings, that make sense to me:
-- and --- since it's difficult to distinguish them from "-" in a
text-editor
and "~" since it's difficult to distinguish the utf unbreakable space from
normal space in a text-editor.

Cheers, Peter

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Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2007 7:17 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex
>> part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using
>> language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for
>> mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have utf ...
> 
> enco-fsl can go away (in mkii as well), but not lang-sla.mki* :)
> 
> When looking into enco-fde (the same is true for Slovenian and Croatian):
> 
>   \def\setupDElanguage
>     {\setuplanguage
>        [\s!de]
>        [\c!leftsentence=\leftguillemot,
>         \c!rightsentence=\rightguillemot,
>         \c!leftsubsentence=\leftsubguillemot,
>         \c!rightsubsentence=\rightsubguillemot]}
> 
> I have suggested another way of handling that a few days ago (no
> conclusions met).

i lost track of this setup thing ...

> Discretionaries should be handled by LuaTeX itself, right? So I guess
> that they're not really needed if they find their way into mkiv.

indeed, much more possibilities there ... just provide me rules and 
files and ...

> Then only "a, "o, "u, "s are left for German. (I already wanted to ask
> for "c -> č, "s -> š and "z ->ž mappings for Slovenian once, but I
> have changed my mind. I find it extremely ugly, although I used to
> write that way before someone has told me about
> \usepackage[cp1250]{inputenc}

i hear no germans climing that this should stay ... after all, it's a 
rather ancient way of dealing with things

> I would vote against supporting them ("a, "o, "u) in LuaTeX, but it's
> not up to me.

nobody voted in favor so far ...

Hans

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Re: mkiv

[Willi Egger]

Hi,


My personal view is, that we should focus on utf and where necessary  
on good exeption handling.
Once you type your documents directly in utf, most of the language  
specific things are directly ok. Others like French spacing or  
language dependent quoting and alike can be handled with the language- 
switch...

Willi

On Dec 8, 2007, at 9:48 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> On Dec 7, 2007 7:17 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex
>> part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using
>> language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense  
>> for
>> mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have  
>> utf ...
>
> enco-fsl can go away (in mkii as well), but not lang-sla.mki* :)
>
> When looking into enco-fde (the same is true for Slovenian and  
> Croatian):
>
>   \def\setupDElanguage
>     {\setuplanguage
>        [\s!de]
>        [\c!leftsentence=\leftguillemot,
>         \c!rightsentence=\rightguillemot,
>         \c!leftsubsentence=\leftsubguillemot,
>         \c!rightsubsentence=\rightsubguillemot]}
>
> I have suggested another way of handling that a few days ago (no
> conclusions met).
>
> Discretionaries should be handled by LuaTeX itself, right? So I guess
> that they're not really needed if they find their way into mkiv.
>
> Then only "a, "o, "u, "s are left for German. (I already wanted to ask
> for "c -> č, "s -> š and "z ->ž mappings for Slovenian once, but I
> have changed my mind. I find it extremely ugly, although I used to
> write that way before someone has told me about
> \usepackage[cp1250]{inputenc}
>
> I would vote against supporting them ("a, "o, "u) in LuaTeX, but it's
> not up to me.
>
> Mojca
> ______________________________________________________________________ 
> _____________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an  
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ 
> ntg-context
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> ______________________________________________________________________ 
> _____________

BOEDE
Book and Electronic Document Engineering
Willi Egger
w.egger@boede.nl
KvK 17138708



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Re: mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> Am 2007-12-07 um 19:17 schrieb Hans Hagen:
> 
>> As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex
>> part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using
>> language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for
>> mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have  
>> utf ...
> 
> Perhaps I don't really understand what you mean, but I always use  
> \quote and \quotation and sometimes also change the language  
> according to my text -- did you mean that with "active quote stuff"?  
> Or just that strange Italian (or French?) quoting style with  
> quotation marks in front of every line? Or something completely  
> different?

"u -> becoming uumlaut


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Re: mkiv

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Dec 7, 2007 7:17 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex
> part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using
> language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for
> mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have utf ...

enco-fsl can go away (in mkii as well), but not lang-sla.mki* :)

When looking into enco-fde (the same is true for Slovenian and Croatian):

  \def\setupDElanguage
    {\setuplanguage
       [\s!de]
       [\c!leftsentence=\leftguillemot,
        \c!rightsentence=\rightguillemot,
        \c!leftsubsentence=\leftsubguillemot,
        \c!rightsubsentence=\rightsubguillemot]}

I have suggested another way of handling that a few days ago (no
conclusions met).

Discretionaries should be handled by LuaTeX itself, right? So I guess
that they're not really needed if they find their way into mkiv.

Then only "a, "o, "u, "s are left for German. (I already wanted to ask
for "c -> č, "s -> š and "z ->ž mappings for Slovenian once, but I
have changed my mind. I find it extremely ugly, although I used to
write that way before someone has told me about
\usepackage[cp1250]{inputenc}

I would vote against supporting them ("a, "o, "u) in LuaTeX, but it's
not up to me.

Mojca
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Re: mkiv

[Wolfgang Schuster]

2007/12/8, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net>:
> Am 2007-12-07 um 19:17 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>
> > As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex
> > part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using
> > language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for
> > mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have
> > utf ...
>
> Perhaps I don't really understand what you mean, but I always use
> \quote and \quotation and sometimes also change the language
> according to my text -- did you mean that with "active quote stuff"?
> Or just that strange Italian (or French?) quoting style with
> quotation marks in front of every line? Or something completely
> different?

I think he mean the old methods write for example umlauts and other
accents. You write "a to get ä, "s to get ß ...

The last user how needed this suport for german was Steffen Wolfrum
but the active characters are disabled by default and ConTeXt has it's
commands to allow hyphens before compund words.

Wolfgang
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Re: mkiv

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2007-12-07 um 19:17 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex
> part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using
> language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for
> mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have  
> utf ...

Perhaps I don't really understand what you mean, but I always use  
\quote and \quotation and sometimes also change the language  
according to my text -- did you mean that with "active quote stuff"?  
Or just that strange Italian (or French?) quoting style with  
quotation marks in front of every line? Or something completely  
different?

Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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mkiv

[Hans Hagen]

Hi,

As a prelude to an independent language mechanism for mkiv (the tex 
part) I removes a few thingies. I was wondering ... is anyone using 
language specifics? Active quote stuff? Does that still make sense for 
mkiv? After all we can have more advanced exceptions and we have utf ...


Hans

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