* Citeproc
@ 2020-10-04 20:58 Denis Maier
2020-10-05 0:47 ` Citeproc Aditya Mahajan
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Denis Maier @ 2020-10-04 20:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi,
John MacFarlane, the developper of Pandoc, has released a new Citeproc
that generates citations and bibliographies using CSL style files (CSL=
citation style language). While it is written in Haskell and while it's
primarily intended for use with Pandoc, it can also be used in other
contexts. Provided with a JSON encoded list of references via stdin, it
can produce formatted output.
I know that ConTeXt has its own infrastructure to format bibliographies
and citations, but, given the enormous amount of available styles in
CSL, I nevertheless think that this could be a worthwile addition. What
would be necessary to make such a toll usable with ConTeXt? How
complicated would that be?
Best,
Denis
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-04 20:58 Citeproc Denis Maier
@ 2020-10-05 0:47 ` Aditya Mahajan
2020-10-05 12:02 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
2020-10-05 12:55 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2020-10-05 0:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> John MacFarlane, the developper of Pandoc, has released a new Citeproc
> that generates citations and bibliographies using CSL style files (CSL=
> citation style language). While it is written in Haskell and while it's
> primarily intended for use with Pandoc, it can also be used in other
> contexts. Provided with a JSON encoded list of references via stdin, it
> can produce formatted output.
The man page of the new citeproc executable, for those who are interested:
https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/blob/master/man/citeproc.1.md
> I know that ConTeXt has its own infrastructure to format bibliographies
> and citations, but, given the enormous amount of available styles in
> CSL, I nevertheless think that this could be a worthwile addition. What
> would be necessary to make such a toll usable with ConTeXt? How
> complicated would that be?
In principle, this should be trivial. Define a new command, say \citeproc[ref], which saves the values of `ref` to a lua table, and at the end of the run, write that lua table to an aux .json file, call citeproc and store output to a new file, and on the second run read from that file. This is essentially how the old bibtex used to work.
Note that this scheme has a few drawbacks: First, it needs to call an external executable, which can be slower than directly reading the bib file via lua. Second, it creates a bunch of extra auxiliary files, which is always annoying. But I do agree that it will provide us with the ability to use the large number CSL styles.
Of course, a better option will be write a CSL processor in Lua, but that is a lot of tedious (but relatively simple) task. I wonder if there is already a CSL processor written in Lua.
Aditya
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-05 0:47 ` Citeproc Aditya Mahajan
@ 2020-10-05 12:02 ` Hans Hagen
2020-10-05 12:41 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
2020-10-05 19:19 ` Citeproc Aditya Mahajan
2020-10-05 12:55 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2020-10-05 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Aditya Mahajan
On 10/5/2020 2:47 AM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>> John MacFarlane, the developper of Pandoc, has released a new Citeproc
>> that generates citations and bibliographies using CSL style files (CSL=
>> citation style language). While it is written in Haskell and while it's
>> primarily intended for use with Pandoc, it can also be used in other
>> contexts. Provided with a JSON encoded list of references via stdin, it
>> can produce formatted output.
>
> The man page of the new citeproc executable, for those who are interested:
>
> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/blob/master/man/citeproc.1.md
>
>> I know that ConTeXt has its own infrastructure to format bibliographies
>> and citations, but, given the enormous amount of available styles in
>> CSL, I nevertheless think that this could be a worthwile addition. What
>> would be necessary to make such a toll usable with ConTeXt? How
>> complicated would that be?
>
> In principle, this should be trivial. Define a new command, say \citeproc[ref], which saves the values of `ref` to a lua table, and at the end of the run, write that lua table to an aux .json file, call citeproc and store output to a new file, and on the second run read from that file. This is essentially how the old bibtex used to work.
>
> Note that this scheme has a few drawbacks: First, it needs to call an external executable, which can be slower than directly reading the bib file via lua. Second, it creates a bunch of extra auxiliary files, which is always annoying. But I do agree that it will provide us with the ability to use the large number CSL styles.
>
> Of course, a better option will be write a CSL processor in Lua, but that is a lot of tedious (but relatively simple) task. I wonder if there is already a CSL processor written in Lua.
the bib module can read lua files (or whatever)
i have no clue what csl is but I assume it's just some key / value thing
as the bib module itself should to the logic
Hans
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-05 12:02 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
@ 2020-10-05 12:41 ` Denis Maier
2020-10-05 19:19 ` Citeproc Aditya Mahajan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Denis Maier @ 2020-10-05 12:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Hans Hagen, Aditya Mahajan
Am 05.10.2020 um 14:02 schrieb Hans Hagen:
> i have no clue what csl is but I assume it's just some key / value
> thing as the bib module itself should to the logic
Sorry, I should have provided more background information.
CSL = Citation Style Language; see https://citationstyles.org/
In the words of the specification: "The Citation Style Language (CSL) is
an XML-based format to describe the formatting of citations, notes and
bibliographies". I.e., it's quite similar to what bibtex (the language,
not the format) is, or what context's own bibliographic language does.
The language is used by a bunch of tools, including Zotero, Pandoc, etc.
There is also a metadata format called CSL JSON, but that's of minor
interest here.
The language itself is defined in a specification, the citations are
rendered by a so called citeproc. Citeproc-js, an implementation in
Javascript, is used by Zotero and Mendeley to render citations in Word
and LibreOffice, citeproc-php is used on some webplatforms,
pandoc-citeproc (now being replaced by a new Haskell library) does the
same thing for pandoc, and there are also implementations in python, c#,
a new one being developped in Rust will eventually replace citeproc-js
at some point.
Now, the new Haskell citeproc can be used as a standalone program as
well, and that's why I was thinking it could be used together with
ConTeXt in some way; essentially as Aditya described it in his response.
Best,
Denis
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-05 0:47 ` Citeproc Aditya Mahajan
2020-10-05 12:02 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
@ 2020-10-05 12:55 ` Denis Maier
2020-10-05 20:04 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Denis Maier @ 2020-10-05 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Aditya Mahajan
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1818 bytes --]
Am 05.10.2020 um 02:47 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>> John MacFarlane, the developper of Pandoc, has released a new Citeproc
>> that generates citations and bibliographies using CSL style files (CSL=
>> citation style language). While it is written in Haskell and while it's
>> primarily intended for use with Pandoc, it can also be used in other
>> contexts. Provided with a JSON encoded list of references via stdin, it
>> can produce formatted output.
> The man page of the new citeproc executable, for those who are
> interested:
>
> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/blob/master/man/citeproc.1.md
Thanks for adding this.
>
>> I know that ConTeXt has its own infrastructure to format bibliographies
>> and citations, but, given the enormous amount of available styles in
>> CSL, I nevertheless think that this could be a worthwile addition. What
>> would be necessary to make such a toll usable with ConTeXt? How
>> complicated would that be?
> In principle, this should be trivial. [...]
>
> Note that this scheme has a few drawbacks: [...] But I do agree that
> it will provide us with the ability to use the large number CSL styles.
Thanks for outlining what would be needed.
> Of course, a better option will be write a CSL processor in Lua, but
> that is a lot of tedious (but relatively simple) task. I wonder if
> there is already a CSL processor written in Lua.
Yeah, a Lua citeproc would be the best way to go. I contemplated some
time ago doing this as a learning project, but I have serious doubts I'd
be able to actually produce something usable by others. There was one
being developped, but a computer hazard destroyed it somewhere along the
way Besides, the person who did it told me Lua has somd shortcomings
that make it a suboptimal tool for this task. But I can't really tell...
Best,
Denis
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-05 12:02 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
2020-10-05 12:41 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
@ 2020-10-05 19:19 ` Aditya Mahajan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2020-10-05 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Mon, 5 Oct 2020, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 10/5/2020 2:47 AM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> > > John MacFarlane, the developper of Pandoc, has released a new Citeproc
> > > that generates citations and bibliographies using CSL style files (CSL=
> > > citation style language). While it is written in Haskell and while it's
> > > primarily intended for use with Pandoc, it can also be used in other
> > > contexts. Provided with a JSON encoded list of references via stdin, it
> > > can produce formatted output.
> >
> > The man page of the new citeproc executable, for those who are interested:
> >
> > https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/blob/master/man/citeproc.1.md
> >
> > > I know that ConTeXt has its own infrastructure to format bibliographies
> > > and citations, but, given the enormous amount of available styles in
> > > CSL, I nevertheless think that this could be a worthwile addition. What
> > > would be necessary to make such a toll usable with ConTeXt? How
> > > complicated would that be?
> >
> > In principle, this should be trivial. Define a new command, say
> > \citeproc[ref], which saves the values of `ref` to a lua table, and at the
> > end of the run, write that lua table to an aux .json file, call citeproc and
> > store output to a new file, and on the second run read from that file. This
> > is essentially how the old bibtex used to work.
> >
> > Note that this scheme has a few drawbacks: First, it needs to call an
> > external executable, which can be slower than directly reading the bib file
> > via lua. Second, it creates a bunch of extra auxiliary files, which is
> > always annoying. But I do agree that it will provide us with the ability to
> > use the large number CSL styles.
> >
> > Of course, a better option will be write a CSL processor in Lua, but that is
> > a lot of tedious (but relatively simple) task. I wonder if there is already
> > a CSL processor written in Lua.
> the bib module can read lua files (or whatever)
>
> i have no clue what csl is but I assume it's just some key / value thing as
> the bib module itself should to the logic
It is similar to a bst file and specifies how the bibliography should be formatted. The specification is written as an XML file, for example, this is the specification for APA style:
https://www.zotero.org/styles/apa-5th-edition
The detailed schema is here:
https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/tree/v1.0.1
There are a large number of such specifications available. For example:
https://www.zotero.org/styles
So, the user can easily search for a style that matches his/her needs and simply use it. The task of finding a reference from a reference database is left to a CSL processor and there a few of them available:
https://citationstyles.org/developers/
In principle, it should be relatively straight forward (but tedious) to write a processor in Lua. But I am not volunteering for that :-)
Aditya
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-05 12:55 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
@ 2020-10-05 20:04 ` Hans Hagen
2020-10-05 20:26 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2020-10-05 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Denis Maier, Aditya Mahajan
On 10/5/2020 2:55 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
> Am 05.10.2020 um 02:47 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>>> John MacFarlane, the developper of Pandoc, has released a new Citeproc
>>> that generates citations and bibliographies using CSL style files (CSL=
>>> citation style language). While it is written in Haskell and while it's
>>> primarily intended for use with Pandoc, it can also be used in other
>>> contexts. Provided with a JSON encoded list of references via stdin, it
>>> can produce formatted output.
>> The man page of the new citeproc executable, for those who are
>> interested:
>>
>> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/blob/master/man/citeproc.1.md
> Thanks for adding this.
>>
>>> I know that ConTeXt has its own infrastructure to format bibliographies
>>> and citations, but, given the enormous amount of available styles in
>>> CSL, I nevertheless think that this could be a worthwile addition. What
>>> would be necessary to make such a toll usable with ConTeXt? How
>>> complicated would that be?
>> In principle, this should be trivial. [...]
>>
>> Note that this scheme has a few drawbacks: [...] But I do agree that
>> it will provide us with the ability to use the large number CSL styles.
> Thanks for outlining what would be needed.
>> Of course, a better option will be write a CSL processor in Lua, but
>> that is a lot of tedious (but relatively simple) task. I wonder if
>> there is already a CSL processor written in Lua.
> Yeah, a Lua citeproc would be the best way to go. I contemplated some
> time ago doing this as a learning project, but I have serious doubts I'd
> be able to actually produce something usable by others. There was one
> being developped, but a computer hazard destroyed it somewhere along the
> way Besides, the person who did it told me Lua has somd shortcomings
> that make it a suboptimal tool for this task. But I can't really tell...
if it's an xml spec then using lua makes not that much sense (no gain)
.. just process the xml
Hans
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Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-05 20:04 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
@ 2020-10-05 20:26 ` Denis Maier
2020-10-06 7:25 ` Citeproc Taco Hoekwater
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Denis Maier @ 2020-10-05 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Hans Hagen, mailing list for ConTeXt users, Aditya Mahajan
Am 05.10.2020 um 22:04 schrieb Hans Hagen:
> if it's an xml spec then using lua makes not that much sense (no gain)
> .. just process the xml
Hmm, but the XML is just a descriptive grammar of how bibliographies and
citations should be rendered. As Aditya has pointed out it's quite
similar to the role of bst style files for bibtex. So, a citeproc will
take a style file (in xml) and apply it to the metadata (based on the
items actually cited in a document).
Denis
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-05 20:26 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
@ 2020-10-06 7:25 ` Taco Hoekwater
2020-10-06 8:50 ` Citeproc denis.maier.lists
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2020-10-06 7:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> On 5 Oct 2020, at 22:26, Denis Maier <denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org> wrote:
>
> Am 05.10.2020 um 22:04 schrieb Hans Hagen:
>> if it's an xml spec then using lua makes not that much sense (no gain) .. just process the xml
> Hmm, but the XML is just a descriptive grammar of how bibliographies and citations should be rendered. As Aditya has pointed out it's quite similar to the role of bst style files for bibtex. So, a citeproc will take a style file (in xml) and apply it to the metadata (based on the items actually cited in a document).
I recall discussing this idea with Bruce D’Arcus a long time ago (somewhere in the early 00-es, maybe).
The CSL files look like XML, but really they are more like a macro processing language. Parsing and interpreting that should not be all that hard, I expect. If I had to do this, I would convert the XML <macro> tags into actual lua functions while parsing the XML. The implied processing language is quite straightforward (unlike the stack-based postfix language in bibtex bst files). I don’t have time right now, but if someone reminds me in two months or so, I might have a go at it.
Best wishes,
Taco
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-06 7:25 ` Citeproc Taco Hoekwater
@ 2020-10-06 8:50 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-10-07 10:01 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: denis.maier.lists @ 2020-10-06 8:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, Taco Hoekwater
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-06 8:50 ` Citeproc denis.maier.lists
@ 2020-10-07 10:01 ` Hans Hagen
2020-10-07 11:04 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2020-10-07 10:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users, denis.maier.lists, Taco Hoekwater
On 10/6/2020 10:50 AM, denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org wrote:
> Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com <mailto:taco@elvenkind.com>> hat am
> 06.10.2020 09:25 geschrieben:
>
>> I recall discussing this idea with Bruce D’Arcus a long time ago
>> (somewhere in the early 00-es, maybe).
>>
>> The CSL files look like XML, but really they are more like a macro
>> processing language. Parsing and interpreting that should not be all
>> that hard, I expect. If I had to do this, I would convert the XML
>> <macro> tags into actual lua functions while parsing the XML. The
>> implied processing language is quite straightforward (unlike the
>> stack-based postfix language in bibtex bst files). I don’t have time
>> right now, but if someone reminds me in two months or so, I might have
>> a go at it.
that was indeed what stroke me when i saw the code: it's just some
simple language wrapped in angle bracked ... straightforward conversion
to lua seems not that hard (if statements mixed with some funcition calls)
> That would be great. I'll remind you, be sure.
>
> I agree the whole endeavour should be not to hard although there are
> some pitfalls, especially regarding disambiguation and so. Anyway, let's
> discuss details later, and let me know if I can be of any help, even if
> it's just cheerleading.
i was thinking of a mid winter cold evenings project -)
(so we can pick up this thread later)
Hans
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* Re: Citeproc
2020-10-07 10:01 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
@ 2020-10-07 11:04 ` Denis Maier
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Denis Maier @ 2020-10-07 11:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Hans Hagen, mailing list for ConTeXt users, Taco Hoekwater
Am 07.10.2020 um 12:01 schrieb Hans Hagen:
> On 10/6/2020 10:50 AM, denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org wrote:
>> Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com <mailto:taco@elvenkind.com>> hat
>> am 06.10.2020 09:25 geschrieben:
>>
>>> I recall discussing this idea with Bruce D’Arcus a long time ago
>>> (somewhere in the early 00-es, maybe).
>>>
>>> The CSL files look like XML, but really they are more like a macro
>>> processing language. Parsing and interpreting that should not be all
>>> that hard, I expect. If I had to do this, I would convert the XML
>>> <macro> tags into actual lua functions while parsing the XML. The
>>> implied processing language is quite straightforward (unlike the
>>> stack-based postfix language in bibtex bst files). I don’t have time
>>> right now, but if someone reminds me in two months or so, I might
>>> have a go at it.
>
>> That would be great. I'll remind you, be sure.
>>
>> I agree the whole endeavour should be not to hard although there are
>> some pitfalls, especially regarding disambiguation and so. Anyway,
>> let's discuss details later, and let me know if I can be of any help,
>> even if it's just cheerleading.
>
> i was thinking of a mid winter cold evenings project -)
>
> (so we can pick up this thread later)
Cool, so let's talk again in a couple of months then.
Best,
Denis
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2020-10-04 20:58 Citeproc Denis Maier
2020-10-05 0:47 ` Citeproc Aditya Mahajan
2020-10-05 12:02 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
2020-10-05 12:41 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
2020-10-05 19:19 ` Citeproc Aditya Mahajan
2020-10-05 12:55 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
2020-10-05 20:04 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
2020-10-05 20:26 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
2020-10-06 7:25 ` Citeproc Taco Hoekwater
2020-10-06 8:50 ` Citeproc denis.maier.lists
2020-10-07 10:01 ` Citeproc Hans Hagen
2020-10-07 11:04 ` Citeproc Denis Maier
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