Position of prime for derivatives

Position of prime for derivatives

[Otared Kavian]

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Hi Hans,

Thanks for having fixed the behavior of the prime in the latest beta release (ConTeXt  version 2017.05.15 21:48).
However, as you may see in the two attached PDF files, the result is still incorrect when one types for example $f_2’’(x)$, which should give the same result as $f’’_2(x)$.
The correct behaviour is that obtained with mkii. Indeed one can circumvent the behaviour of the latest beta release of mkiv by using tricks such as the ones in the example code below, but this should be avoided in my opinion.

The following PDF have been obtained with mkii and mkiv with the following example code.
Best regards: OK

%%% begin derivatives-prime.tex
\starttext

\startformula
f''_{2}(x) = f_{2}''(x) = f^{''}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{''}(x) % = f^{{}^{''}}_{2}(x)
\stopformula
As one may see the result of \type{f_{2}''(x) = } $f_{2}''(x)$ is not correct in \type{mkiv}. 

The following positions of the superscripts \type{(3)} are correct both in \type{mkii} and in \type{mkiv}.
\startformula
f^{(3)}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{(3)}(x)
\stopformula

\stoptext
%%% end derivatives-prime.tex


[-- Attachment #2: derivatives-prime-mkii.pdf --]
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[-- Attachment #3: derivatives-prime-mkiv.pdf --]
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___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Hans Hagen]

On 5/17/2017 8:35 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:
> Hi Hans,
>
> Thanks for having fixed the behavior of the prime in the latest beta release (ConTeXt  version 2017.05.15 21:48).
> However, as you may see in the two attached PDF files, the result is still incorrect when one types for example $f_2’’(x)$, which should give the same result as $f’’_2(x)$.
> The correct behaviour is that obtained with mkii. Indeed one can circumvent the behaviour of the latest beta release of mkiv by using tricks such as the ones in the example code below, but this should be avoided in my opinion.

well, it depends on how one sees this '' mess

the problem with primes is that in macro packages they are messy 
entities that should collapse or not (active char mess) and the more 
clever a macro packages becomes the harder it becomes to makes it robust 
and/or to fight against such heuristics

add to that the fact that the symbol itself is a funny positioned 
something already raised in a font or not i.e. sometimes in need of 
superscript and sometimes explicitly not

for unicode we need to turn two '' into a double and ''' into a and 
triple such

that said, in context these thingies are at some point intercepted and 
their current state is looked at: superscript? multipel in a row? one 
ebing the nucleus of another ... etc .. the current (working again) 
behavior is what we support and i don't look forward to more heuristics


> The following PDF have been obtained with mkii and mkiv with the following example code.
> Best regards: OK
>
> %%% begin derivatives-prime.tex
> \starttext
>
> \startformula
> f''_{2}(x) = f_{2}''(x) = f^{''}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{''}(x) % = f^{{}^{''}}_{2}(x)
> \stopformula
> As one may see the result of \type{f_{2}''(x) = } $f_{2}''(x)$ is not correct in \type{mkiv}.
>
> The following positions of the superscripts \type{(3)} are correct both in \type{mkii} and in \type{mkiv}.
> \startformula
> f^{(3)}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{(3)}(x)
> \stopformula
>
> \stoptext
> %%% end derivatives-prime.tex
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>


-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Hans,

Thanks for your explanations. 
When using constructions such as $f’’_2(x)$, I will adapt my input  in order to get what seems correct.

Best regards: OK

> On 17 May 2017, at 17:17, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 5/17/2017 8:35 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:
>> Hi Hans,
>> 
>> Thanks for having fixed the behavior of the prime in the latest beta release (ConTeXt  version 2017.05.15 21:48).
>> However, as you may see in the two attached PDF files, the result is still incorrect when one types for example $f_2’’(x)$, which should give the same result as $f’’_2(x)$.
>> The correct behaviour is that obtained with mkii. Indeed one can circumvent the behaviour of the latest beta release of mkiv by using tricks such as the ones in the example code below, but this should be avoided in my opinion.
> 
> well, it depends on how one sees this '' mess
> 
> the problem with primes is that in macro packages they are messy entities that should collapse or not (active char mess) and the more clever a macro packages becomes the harder it becomes to makes it robust and/or to fight against such heuristics
> 
> add to that the fact that the symbol itself is a funny positioned something already raised in a font or not i.e. sometimes in need of superscript and sometimes explicitly not
> 
> for unicode we need to turn two '' into a double and ''' into a and triple such
> 
> that said, in context these thingies are at some point intercepted and their current state is looked at: superscript? multipel in a row? one ebing the nucleus of another ... etc .. the current (working again) behavior is what we support and i don't look forward to more heuristics
> 
> 
>> The following PDF have been obtained with mkii and mkiv with the following example code.
>> Best regards: OK
>> 
>> %%% begin derivatives-prime.tex
>> \starttext
>> 
>> \startformula
>> f''_{2}(x) = f_{2}''(x) = f^{''}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{''}(x) % = f^{{}^{''}}_{2}(x)
>> \stopformula
>> As one may see the result of \type{f_{2}''(x) = } $f_{2}''(x)$ is not correct in \type{mkiv}.
>> 
>> The following positions of the superscripts \type{(3)} are correct both in \type{mkii} and in \type{mkiv}.
>> \startformula
>> f^{(3)}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{(3)}(x)
>> \stopformula
>> 
>> \stoptext
>> %%% end derivatives-prime.tex
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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Den 18 maj 2017 10:13 fm skrev "Otared Kavian" <otared@gmail.com>:

Hi Hans,

Thanks for your explanations.
When using constructions such as $f’’_2(x)$, I will adapt my input  in
order to get what seems correct.

Best regards: OK

> On 17 May 2017, at 17:17, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
> On 5/17/2017 8:35 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:
>> Hi Hans,
>>
>> Thanks for having fixed the behavior of the prime in the latest beta
release (ConTeXt  version 2017.05.15 21:48).
>> However, as you may see in the two attached PDF files, the result is
still incorrect when one types for example $f_2’’(x)$, which should give
the same result as $f’’_2(x)$.
>> The correct behaviour is that obtained with mkii. Indeed one can
circumvent the behaviour of the latest beta release of mkiv by using tricks
such as the ones in the example code below, but this should be avoided in
my opinion.
>
> well, it depends on how one sees this '' mess
>
> the problem with primes is that in macro packages they are messy entities
that should collapse or not (active char mess) and the more clever a macro
packages becomes the harder it becomes to makes it robust and/or to fight
against such heuristics
>
> add to that the fact that the symbol itself is a funny positioned
something already raised in a font or not i.e. sometimes in need of
superscript and sometimes explicitly not
>
> for unicode we need to turn two '' into a double and ''' into a and
triple such
>
> that said, in context these thingies are at some point intercepted and
their current state is looked at: superscript? multipel in a row? one ebing
the nucleus of another ... etc .. the current (working again) behavior is
what we support and i don't look forward to more heuristics
>
>
>> The following PDF have been obtained with mkii and mkiv with the
following example code.
>> Best regards: OK
>>
>> %%% begin derivatives-prime.tex
>> \starttext
>>
>> \startformula
>> f''_{2}(x) = f_{2}''(x) = f^{''}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{''}(x) % =
f^{{}^{''}}_{2}(x)
>> \stopformula
>> As one may see the result of \type{f_{2}''(x) = } $f_{2}''(x)$ is not
correct in \type{mkiv}.
>>
>> The following positions of the superscripts \type{(3)} are correct both
in \type{mkii} and in \type{mkiv}.
>> \startformula
>> f^{(3)}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{(3)}(x)
>> \stopformula
>>
>> \stoptext
>> %%% end derivatives-prime.tex
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
_______________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry
to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ____________________________________________________________
_______________________
>>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ____________________________________________________________
_______________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ____________________________________________________________
_______________________

____________________________________________________________
_______________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/
listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
____________________________________________________________
_______________________


OK, very good, it seems that we have a working solution and one specific
way to write it. I have absolutely nothing against that, but I would like
us (me?) to document it, since I think future users might have use of it.
Is the math page in the wiki the right place?

(It will take some time before I will be able to act. I'm currently
travelling with close to no working connection.)

/Mikael

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> Den 18 maj 2017 10:13 fm skrev "Otared Kavian" <otared@gmail.com>:
>
> Hi Hans,
>
> Thanks for your explanations.
> When using constructions such as $f’’_2(x)$, I will adapt my input  in order
> to get what seems correct.
>
> Best regards: OK
>
>> On 17 May 2017, at 17:17, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/17/2017 8:35 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:
>>> Hi Hans,
>>>
>>> Thanks for having fixed the behavior of the prime in the latest beta
>>> release (ConTeXt  version 2017.05.15 21:48).
>>> However, as you may see in the two attached PDF files, the result is
>>> still incorrect when one types for example $f_2’’(x)$, which should give the
>>> same result as $f’’_2(x)$.
>>> The correct behaviour is that obtained with mkii. Indeed one can
>>> circumvent the behaviour of the latest beta release of mkiv by using tricks
>>> such as the ones in the example code below, but this should be avoided in my
>>> opinion.
>>
>> well, it depends on how one sees this '' mess
>>
>> the problem with primes is that in macro packages they are messy entities
>> that should collapse or not (active char mess) and the more clever a macro
>> packages becomes the harder it becomes to makes it robust and/or to fight
>> against such heuristics
>>
>> add to that the fact that the symbol itself is a funny positioned
>> something already raised in a font or not i.e. sometimes in need of
>> superscript and sometimes explicitly not
>>
>> for unicode we need to turn two '' into a double and ''' into a and triple
>> such
>>
>> that said, in context these thingies are at some point intercepted and
>> their current state is looked at: superscript? multipel in a row? one ebing
>> the nucleus of another ... etc .. the current (working again) behavior is
>> what we support and i don't look forward to more heuristics
>>
>>
>>> The following PDF have been obtained with mkii and mkiv with the
>>> following example code.
>>> Best regards: OK
>>>
>>> %%% begin derivatives-prime.tex
>>> \starttext
>>>
>>> \startformula
>>> f''_{2}(x) = f_{2}''(x) = f^{''}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{''}(x) % =
>>> f^{{}^{''}}_{2}(x)
>>> \stopformula
>>> As one may see the result of \type{f_{2}''(x) = } $f_{2}''(x)$ is not
>>> correct in \type{mkiv}.
>>>
>>> The following positions of the superscripts \type{(3)} are correct both
>>> in \type{mkii} and in \type{mkiv}.
>>> \startformula
>>> f^{(3)}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{(3)}(x)
>>> \stopformula
>>>
>>> \stoptext
>>> %%% end derivatives-prime.tex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>>
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>>       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> OK, very good, it seems that we have a working solution and one specific way
> to write it. I have absolutely nothing against that, but I would like us
> (me?) to document it, since I think future users might have use of it. Is
> the math page in the wiki the right place?
>
> (It will take some time before I will be able to act. I'm currently
> travelling with close to no working connection.)
>
> /Mikael

I'm sorry, but there seem to still be problems with primes.

Look at the height of the primes in this document (ctx-listexample30.pdf).

%%%%
%\definefallbackfamily [lucidaopentype][mm][Xits
Math][range={2660,2661,2662,2663,2664,2665,2666,2667}]
\definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
\definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][ss][Lucida Sans OT]
\definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][tt][Lucida Sans Typewriter OT]
\definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]

\setupbodyfont[lucidaopentype,10pt]

\starttext
Look at $f'$ and $f''$
\stoptext
%%%%

If I uncomment the \definefallbackfamily, the result is the one given
in ctx-listexample30-var.pdf, look at the prime. It is still not
correct (and the double prime is wrong as in the first example).

/Mikael

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If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Den 18 maj 2017 10:13 fm skrev "Otared Kavian" <otared@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hi Hans,
>>
>> Thanks for your explanations.
>> When using constructions such as $f’’_2(x)$, I will adapt my input  in order
>> to get what seems correct.
>>
>> Best regards: OK
>>
>>> On 17 May 2017, at 17:17, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/17/2017 8:35 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:
>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for having fixed the behavior of the prime in the latest beta
>>>> release (ConTeXt  version 2017.05.15 21:48).
>>>> However, as you may see in the two attached PDF files, the result is
>>>> still incorrect when one types for example $f_2’’(x)$, which should give the
>>>> same result as $f’’_2(x)$.
>>>> The correct behaviour is that obtained with mkii. Indeed one can
>>>> circumvent the behaviour of the latest beta release of mkiv by using tricks
>>>> such as the ones in the example code below, but this should be avoided in my
>>>> opinion.
>>>
>>> well, it depends on how one sees this '' mess
>>>
>>> the problem with primes is that in macro packages they are messy entities
>>> that should collapse or not (active char mess) and the more clever a macro
>>> packages becomes the harder it becomes to makes it robust and/or to fight
>>> against such heuristics
>>>
>>> add to that the fact that the symbol itself is a funny positioned
>>> something already raised in a font or not i.e. sometimes in need of
>>> superscript and sometimes explicitly not
>>>
>>> for unicode we need to turn two '' into a double and ''' into a and triple
>>> such
>>>
>>> that said, in context these thingies are at some point intercepted and
>>> their current state is looked at: superscript? multipel in a row? one ebing
>>> the nucleus of another ... etc .. the current (working again) behavior is
>>> what we support and i don't look forward to more heuristics
>>>
>>>
>>>> The following PDF have been obtained with mkii and mkiv with the
>>>> following example code.
>>>> Best regards: OK
>>>>
>>>> %%% begin derivatives-prime.tex
>>>> \starttext
>>>>
>>>> \startformula
>>>> f''_{2}(x) = f_{2}''(x) = f^{''}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{''}(x) % =
>>>> f^{{}^{''}}_{2}(x)
>>>> \stopformula
>>>> As one may see the result of \type{f_{2}''(x) = } $f_{2}''(x)$ is not
>>>> correct in \type{mkiv}.
>>>>
>>>> The following positions of the superscripts \type{(3)} are correct both
>>>> in \type{mkii} and in \type{mkiv}.
>>>> \startformula
>>>> f^{(3)}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{(3)}(x)
>>>> \stopformula
>>>>
>>>> \stoptext
>>>> %%% end derivatives-prime.tex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>>>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>>>       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>>
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> OK, very good, it seems that we have a working solution and one specific way
>> to write it. I have absolutely nothing against that, but I would like us
>> (me?) to document it, since I think future users might have use of it. Is
>> the math page in the wiki the right place?
>>
>> (It will take some time before I will be able to act. I'm currently
>> travelling with close to no working connection.)
>>
>> /Mikael
>
> I'm sorry, but there seem to still be problems with primes.
>
> Look at the height of the primes in this document (ctx-listexample30.pdf).
>
> %%%%
> %\definefallbackfamily [lucidaopentype][mm][Xits
> Math][range={2660,2661,2662,2663,2664,2665,2666,2667}]
> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][ss][Lucida Sans OT]
> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][tt][Lucida Sans Typewriter OT]
> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
>
> \setupbodyfont[lucidaopentype,10pt]
>
> \starttext
> Look at $f'$ and $f''$
> \stoptext
> %%%%
>
> If I uncomment the \definefallbackfamily, the result is the one given
> in ctx-listexample30-var.pdf, look at the prime. It is still not
> correct (and the double prime is wrong as in the first example).
>
> /Mikael

Hi,

I am now more confused. I tried in different fonts, and the result is
attached. The difference in height of the prime and the double prime
is confusing me. In some fonts the prime is above the double prime, in
some the other way around (the worst is lucida, which perhaps is why I
saw it in the first place). Does someone understand why this is so? Is
it the fonts that are constructed like this?

/Mikael

PS The test file I used was the following, with the natural changes in
fonts each time.

\definefontfamily[myface][rm][TeX Gyre Pagella]
\definefontfamily[myface][mm][TeX Gyre Pagella Math]
\setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
\starttext
\startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
$f'f''$
\stopTEXpage
\stoptext

[-- Attachment #2: primtest-latinmodern.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5984 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: primtest-lucida.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5526 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #4: primtest-neoeuler.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5683 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #5: primtest-pagella.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5950 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #6: primtest-schola.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5938 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #7: primtest-termes.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5954 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #8: primtest-xits.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5971 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #9: Type: text/plain, Size: 492 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7577 bytes --]

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 3:33 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 9:50 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Den 18 maj 2017 10:13 fm skrev "Otared Kavian" <otared@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> Hi Hans,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your explanations.
>>> When using constructions such as $f’’_2(x)$, I will adapt my input  in order
>>> to get what seems correct.
>>>
>>> Best regards: OK
>>>
>>>> On 17 May 2017, at 17:17, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/17/2017 8:35 AM, Otared Kavian wrote:
>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for having fixed the behavior of the prime in the latest beta
>>>>> release (ConTeXt  version 2017.05.15 21:48).
>>>>> However, as you may see in the two attached PDF files, the result is
>>>>> still incorrect when one types for example $f_2’’(x)$, which should give the
>>>>> same result as $f’’_2(x)$.
>>>>> The correct behaviour is that obtained with mkii. Indeed one can
>>>>> circumvent the behaviour of the latest beta release of mkiv by using tricks
>>>>> such as the ones in the example code below, but this should be avoided in my
>>>>> opinion.
>>>>
>>>> well, it depends on how one sees this '' mess
>>>>
>>>> the problem with primes is that in macro packages they are messy entities
>>>> that should collapse or not (active char mess) and the more clever a macro
>>>> packages becomes the harder it becomes to makes it robust and/or to fight
>>>> against such heuristics
>>>>
>>>> add to that the fact that the symbol itself is a funny positioned
>>>> something already raised in a font or not i.e. sometimes in need of
>>>> superscript and sometimes explicitly not
>>>>
>>>> for unicode we need to turn two '' into a double and ''' into a and triple
>>>> such
>>>>
>>>> that said, in context these thingies are at some point intercepted and
>>>> their current state is looked at: superscript? multipel in a row? one ebing
>>>> the nucleus of another ... etc .. the current (working again) behavior is
>>>> what we support and i don't look forward to more heuristics
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The following PDF have been obtained with mkii and mkiv with the
>>>>> following example code.
>>>>> Best regards: OK
>>>>>
>>>>> %%% begin derivatives-prime.tex
>>>>> \starttext
>>>>>
>>>>> \startformula
>>>>> f''_{2}(x) = f_{2}''(x) = f^{''}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{''}(x) % =
>>>>> f^{{}^{''}}_{2}(x)
>>>>> \stopformula
>>>>> As one may see the result of \type{f_{2}''(x) = } $f_{2}''(x)$ is not
>>>>> correct in \type{mkiv}.
>>>>>
>>>>> The following positions of the superscripts \type{(3)} are correct both
>>>>> in \type{mkii} and in \type{mkiv}.
>>>>> \startformula
>>>>> f^{(3)}_{2}(x) = f_{2}^{(3)}(x)
>>>>> \stopformula
>>>>>
>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>> %%% end derivatives-prime.tex
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>>
>>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>>>>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>>>>       tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>>
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, very good, it seems that we have a working solution and one specific way
>>> to write it. I have absolutely nothing against that, but I would like us
>>> (me?) to document it, since I think future users might have use of it. Is
>>> the math page in the wiki the right place?
>>>
>>> (It will take some time before I will be able to act. I'm currently
>>> travelling with close to no working connection.)
>>>
>>> /Mikael
>>
>> I'm sorry, but there seem to still be problems with primes.
>>
>> Look at the height of the primes in this document (ctx-listexample30.pdf).
>>
>> %%%%
>> %\definefallbackfamily [lucidaopentype][mm][Xits
>> Math][range={2660,2661,2662,2663,2664,2665,2666,2667}]
>> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
>> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][ss][Lucida Sans OT]
>> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][tt][Lucida Sans Typewriter OT]
>> \definefontfamily[lucidaopentype][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
>>
>> \setupbodyfont[lucidaopentype,10pt]
>>
>> \starttext
>> Look at $f'$ and $f''$
>> \stoptext
>> %%%%
>>
>> If I uncomment the \definefallbackfamily, the result is the one given
>> in ctx-listexample30-var.pdf, look at the prime. It is still not
>> correct (and the double prime is wrong as in the first example).
>>
>> /Mikael
>
> Hi,
>
> I am now more confused. I tried in different fonts, and the result is
> attached. The difference in height of the prime and the double prime
> is confusing me. In some fonts the prime is above the double prime, in
> some the other way around (the worst is lucida, which perhaps is why I
> saw it in the first place). Does someone understand why this is so? Is
> it the fonts that are constructed like this?
>
> /Mikael
>
> PS The test file I used was the following, with the natural changes in
> fonts each time.
>
> \definefontfamily[myface][rm][TeX Gyre Pagella]
> \definefontfamily[myface][mm][TeX Gyre Pagella Math]
> \setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
> \starttext
> \startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
> $f'f''$
> \stopTEXpage
> \stoptext

And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.

/Mikael

\RequirePackage{luatex85}
\documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}

\usepackage{unicode-math}
\setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
\setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}

\begin{document}
$f'f''$
\end{document}

[-- Attachment #2: lltest.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 3415 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 492 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Mikael,

I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…). 

The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.

But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.

Best regards: OK

> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> […]
> 
> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
> 
> /Mikael
> 
> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
> 
> \usepackage{unicode-math}
> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
> 
> \begin{document}
> $f'f''$
> \end{document}
> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2673 bytes --]

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mikael,
>
> I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…).
>
> The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.
>
> But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.
>
> Best regards: OK
>
>> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> […]
>>
>> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
>> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
>> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
>> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
>>
>> /Mikael
>>
>> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
>> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
>>
>> \usepackage{unicode-math}
>> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
>> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
>>
>> \begin{document}
>> $f'f''$
>> \end{document}
>> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

Otared, thank you for confirmation. I also hope there will be a fix soon.

In the meantime, I put yet another test file. The location of the
primes depends on the next character (I use, at the moment current
version: 2017.05.15 21:48)

/Mikael

\definefontfamily[myface][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
\definefontfamily[myface][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
\setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
\starttext
\startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
$f'(x)f''(x)f'f''$
\stopTEXpage
\stoptext

[-- Attachment #2: primfisk.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 5908 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 492 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Otared Kavian]

Hi Mikael,

You are correct, the position of \prime depends on whether there is a next character or not after it, and it seems that this has an effect on its position for characters having a subscript as in
	$f_{1}''(x) \neq f''_{1}(x)$ 
	$f'f''f'’'$
Best regards: OK

> On 22 May 2017, at 08:51, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Mikael,
>> 
>> I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…).
>> 
>> The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.
>> 
>> But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.
>> 
>> Best regards: OK
>> 
>>> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> […]
>>> 
>>> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
>>> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
>>> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
>>> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
>>> 
>>> /Mikael
>>> 
>>> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
>>> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
>>> 
>>> \usepackage{unicode-math}
>>> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
>>> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
>>> 
>>> \begin{document}
>>> $f'f''$
>>> \end{document}
>>> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> 
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Otared, thank you for confirmation. I also hope there will be a fix soon.
> 
> In the meantime, I put yet another test file. The location of the
> primes depends on the next character (I use, at the moment current
> version: 2017.05.15 21:48)
> 
> /Mikael
> 
> \definefontfamily[myface][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
> \definefontfamily[myface][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
> \setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
> \starttext
> \startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
> $f'(x)f''(x)f'f''$
> \stopTEXpage
> \stoptext
> <primfisk.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mathias Schickel]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7256 bytes --]

Hi Mikael and Otared,

I can confirm issues regarding primes, too. If you are using the STIX 2 fonts (http://www.stixfonts.org <http://www.stixfonts.org/>) and my example below you get a somewhat strange behaviour of primes that is pretty obvious. I think the issues should be fixed.

By the way the issue seems to depend to some extend on the fonts. Using Lucida by \setupbodyfont[lucidaot] it is not that obvious but still present. Using Latin Modern it seems that the spacing between the primes changes between f'' and f^{''}. Cambria seems to show that behaviour (like Latin Modern), too, but less obvious.

Best regards
Mathias

%% example 
\unprotect

\definefontfeature
	[stixtwo-math-feature]
	[kern=yes,
		ss01=no,    % calligraphic letters
		ss02=yes,	% lowercase italic variants (e.g. open g)
		ss03=no,	% hbar und lambdabar variants
		ss04=yes,	% larger and lower primes, minute etc.
		ss05=no,	% shorter arrows
		ss06=no,	% narrower and shorter element and similar symbols
		ss07=no,	% some smaller operators and emptyset variant
		ss08=yes,	% upright integrals etc.
		ss09=no,	% variant negated symbols
		ss10=yes,	% variants of greater and lesser and similar symbols
		ss11=yes,	% variant of negated set (inclusion etc.) symbols
		ss14=yes,	% 
		ss16=yes]	% variants of circled operators

\starttypescriptcollection[Stix2]
	
	\starttypescript [\s!serif] [Stix2] [\s!all]
		\definefontsynonym
            [Stix2Regular]
            [file:STIX2Text-Regular.otf]
        \definefontsynonym
            [Stix2Bold]
            [file:STIX2Text-Bold.otf]
        \definefontsynonym
            [Stix2Italic]
            [file:STIX2Text-Italic.otf]
        \definefontsynonym
            [Stix2BoldItalic]
            [file:STIX2Text-BoldItalic.otf]      
        \definefontsynonym[\s!Serif] [Stix2Regular] [\s!features=\s!default]
        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBold] [Stix2Bold] [\s!features=\s!default]
        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifItalic] [Stix2Italic] [\s!features=\s!default]
        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBoldItalic] [Stix2BoldItalic] [\s!features=\s!default]
    \stoptypescript
    
    \starttypescript [\s!math] [Stix2]
        \definefontsynonym
            [Stix2Math]
            [file:STIX2Math.otf]
            [features=math\mathsizesuffix]
        \definefontsynonym [\s!MathRoman] [Stix2Math] [\s!features={\s!math\mathsizesuffix,mathextra,stixtwo-math-feature},\s!designsize=\s!auto]
    \stoptypescript

    \starttypescript [Stix2]
        \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!rm] [\s!serif] [Stix2] [\s!default]
        \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!mm] [\s!math] [Stix2] [\s!default]
    \stoptypescript

\stoptypescriptcollection

\protect

\setupbodyfont[Stix2]

\starttext
%
Compare $f'$ to $(f')$ and to $f''$, $(f'')$, $f^{''}$ and $(f^{''})$.
%
\stoptext
%% end of example



> Am 22.05.2017 um 09:50 schrieb Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com>:
> 
> Hi Mikael,
> 
> You are correct, the position of \prime depends on whether there is a next character or not after it, and it seems that this has an effect on its position for characters having a subscript as in
> 	$f_{1}''(x) \neq f''_{1}(x)$ 
> 	$f'f''f'’'$
> Best regards: OK
> 
>> On 22 May 2017, at 08:51, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Mikael,
>>> 
>>> I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…).
>>> 
>>> The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.
>>> 
>>> But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.
>>> 
>>> Best regards: OK
>>> 
>>>> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> […]
>>>> 
>>>> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
>>>> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
>>>> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
>>>> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
>>>> 
>>>> /Mikael
>>>> 
>>>> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
>>>> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
>>>> 
>>>> \usepackage{unicode-math}
>>>> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
>>>> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
>>>> 
>>>> \begin{document}
>>>> $f'f''$
>>>> \end{document}
>>>> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>>> 
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> 
>> Otared, thank you for confirmation. I also hope there will be a fix soon.
>> 
>> In the meantime, I put yet another test file. The location of the
>> primes depends on the next character (I use, at the moment current
>> version: 2017.05.15 21:48)
>> 
>> /Mikael
>> 
>> \definefontfamily[myface][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
>> \definefontfamily[myface][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
>> \setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
>> \starttext
>> \startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
>> $f'(x)f''(x)f'f''$
>> \stopTEXpage
>> \stoptext
>> <primfisk.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Mathias Schickel
<msch@fa.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
> Hi Mikael and Otared,
>
> I can confirm issues regarding primes, too. If you are using the STIX 2
> fonts (http://www.stixfonts.org) and my example below you get a somewhat
> strange behaviour of primes that is pretty obvious. I think the issues
> should be fixed.
>
> By the way the issue seems to depend to some extend on the fonts. Using
> Lucida by \setupbodyfont[lucidaot] it is not that obvious but still present.
> Using Latin Modern it seems that the spacing between the primes changes
> between f'' and f^{''}. Cambria seems to show that behaviour (like Latin
> Modern), too, but less obvious.
>
> Best regards
> Mathias
>
> %% example
> \unprotect
>
> \definefontfeature
> [stixtwo-math-feature]
> [kern=yes,
> ss01=no,    % calligraphic letters
> ss02=yes, % lowercase italic variants (e.g. open g)
> ss03=no, % hbar und lambdabar variants
> ss04=yes, % larger and lower primes, minute etc.
> ss05=no, % shorter arrows
> ss06=no, % narrower and shorter element and similar symbols
> ss07=no, % some smaller operators and emptyset variant
> ss08=yes, % upright integrals etc.
> ss09=no, % variant negated symbols
> ss10=yes, % variants of greater and lesser and similar symbols
> ss11=yes, % variant of negated set (inclusion etc.) symbols
> ss14=yes, %
> ss16=yes] % variants of circled operators
>
> \starttypescriptcollection[Stix2]
> \starttypescript [\s!serif] [Stix2] [\s!all]
> \definefontsynonym
>             [Stix2Regular]
>             [file:STIX2Text-Regular.otf]
>         \definefontsynonym
>             [Stix2Bold]
>             [file:STIX2Text-Bold.otf]
>         \definefontsynonym
>             [Stix2Italic]
>             [file:STIX2Text-Italic.otf]
>         \definefontsynonym
>             [Stix2BoldItalic]
>             [file:STIX2Text-BoldItalic.otf]
>         \definefontsynonym[\s!Serif] [Stix2Regular] [\s!features=\s!default]
>         \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBold] [Stix2Bold]
> [\s!features=\s!default]
>         \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifItalic] [Stix2Italic]
> [\s!features=\s!default]
>         \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBoldItalic] [Stix2BoldItalic]
> [\s!features=\s!default]
>     \stoptypescript
>
>     \starttypescript [\s!math] [Stix2]
>         \definefontsynonym
>             [Stix2Math]
>             [file:STIX2Math.otf]
>             [features=math\mathsizesuffix]
>         \definefontsynonym [\s!MathRoman] [Stix2Math]
> [\s!features={\s!math\mathsizesuffix,mathextra,stixtwo-math-feature},\s!designsize=\s!auto]
>     \stoptypescript
>
>     \starttypescript [Stix2]
>         \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!rm] [\s!serif] [Stix2]
> [\s!default]
>         \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!mm] [\s!math] [Stix2]
> [\s!default]
>     \stoptypescript
>
> \stoptypescriptcollection
>
> \protect
>
> \setupbodyfont[Stix2]
>
> \starttext
> %
> Compare $f'$ to $(f')$ and to $f''$, $(f'')$, $f^{''}$ and $(f^{''})$.
> %
> \stoptext
> %% end of example
>
>
>
> Am 22.05.2017 um 09:50 schrieb Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com>:
>
> Hi Mikael,
>
> You are correct, the position of \prime depends on whether there is a next
> character or not after it, and it seems that this has an effect on its
> position for characters having a subscript as in
> $f_{1}''(x) \neq f''_{1}(x)$
> $f'f''f'’'$
> Best regards: OK
>
> On 22 May 2017, at 08:51, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mikael,
>
> I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime
> operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii
> it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…).
>
> The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even
> $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.
>
> But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.
>
> Best regards: OK
>
> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> […]
>
> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
>
> /Mikael
>
> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
>
> \usepackage{unicode-math}
> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
>
> \begin{document}
> $f'f''$
> \end{document}
> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> Otared, thank you for confirmation. I also hope there will be a fix soon.
>
> In the meantime, I put yet another test file. The location of the
> primes depends on the next character (I use, at the moment current
> version: 2017.05.15 21:48)
>
> /Mikael
>
> \definefontfamily[myface][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
> \definefontfamily[myface][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
> \setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
> \starttext
> \startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
> $f'(x)f''(x)f'f''$
> \stopTEXpage
> \stoptext
> <primfisk.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks Otared and Mathias!

Hans, just to know, are you working on a fix? Is there anything more
we can provide?

Best regards, Mikael
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Mathias Schickel
> <msch@fa.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>> Hi Mikael and Otared,
>>
>> I can confirm issues regarding primes, too. If you are using the STIX 2
>> fonts (http://www.stixfonts.org) and my example below you get a somewhat
>> strange behaviour of primes that is pretty obvious. I think the issues
>> should be fixed.
>>
>> By the way the issue seems to depend to some extend on the fonts. Using
>> Lucida by \setupbodyfont[lucidaot] it is not that obvious but still present.
>> Using Latin Modern it seems that the spacing between the primes changes
>> between f'' and f^{''}. Cambria seems to show that behaviour (like Latin
>> Modern), too, but less obvious.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Mathias
>>
>> %% example
>> \unprotect
>>
>> \definefontfeature
>> [stixtwo-math-feature]
>> [kern=yes,
>> ss01=no,    % calligraphic letters
>> ss02=yes, % lowercase italic variants (e.g. open g)
>> ss03=no, % hbar und lambdabar variants
>> ss04=yes, % larger and lower primes, minute etc.
>> ss05=no, % shorter arrows
>> ss06=no, % narrower and shorter element and similar symbols
>> ss07=no, % some smaller operators and emptyset variant
>> ss08=yes, % upright integrals etc.
>> ss09=no, % variant negated symbols
>> ss10=yes, % variants of greater and lesser and similar symbols
>> ss11=yes, % variant of negated set (inclusion etc.) symbols
>> ss14=yes, %
>> ss16=yes] % variants of circled operators
>>
>> \starttypescriptcollection[Stix2]
>> \starttypescript [\s!serif] [Stix2] [\s!all]
>> \definefontsynonym
>>             [Stix2Regular]
>>             [file:STIX2Text-Regular.otf]
>>         \definefontsynonym
>>             [Stix2Bold]
>>             [file:STIX2Text-Bold.otf]
>>         \definefontsynonym
>>             [Stix2Italic]
>>             [file:STIX2Text-Italic.otf]
>>         \definefontsynonym
>>             [Stix2BoldItalic]
>>             [file:STIX2Text-BoldItalic.otf]
>>         \definefontsynonym[\s!Serif] [Stix2Regular] [\s!features=\s!default]
>>         \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBold] [Stix2Bold]
>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>         \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifItalic] [Stix2Italic]
>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>         \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBoldItalic] [Stix2BoldItalic]
>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>     \stoptypescript
>>
>>     \starttypescript [\s!math] [Stix2]
>>         \definefontsynonym
>>             [Stix2Math]
>>             [file:STIX2Math.otf]
>>             [features=math\mathsizesuffix]
>>         \definefontsynonym [\s!MathRoman] [Stix2Math]
>> [\s!features={\s!math\mathsizesuffix,mathextra,stixtwo-math-feature},\s!designsize=\s!auto]
>>     \stoptypescript
>>
>>     \starttypescript [Stix2]
>>         \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!rm] [\s!serif] [Stix2]
>> [\s!default]
>>         \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!mm] [\s!math] [Stix2]
>> [\s!default]
>>     \stoptypescript
>>
>> \stoptypescriptcollection
>>
>> \protect
>>
>> \setupbodyfont[Stix2]
>>
>> \starttext
>> %
>> Compare $f'$ to $(f')$ and to $f''$, $(f'')$, $f^{''}$ and $(f^{''})$.
>> %
>> \stoptext
>> %% end of example
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 22.05.2017 um 09:50 schrieb Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hi Mikael,
>>
>> You are correct, the position of \prime depends on whether there is a next
>> character or not after it, and it seems that this has an effect on its
>> position for characters having a subscript as in
>> $f_{1}''(x) \neq f''_{1}(x)$
>> $f'f''f'’'$
>> Best regards: OK
>>
>> On 22 May 2017, at 08:51, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mikael,
>>
>> I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime
>> operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii
>> it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…).
>>
>> The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even
>> $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.
>>
>> But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.
>>
>> Best regards: OK
>>
>> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> […]
>>
>> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
>> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
>> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
>> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
>>
>> /Mikael
>>
>> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
>> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
>>
>> \usepackage{unicode-math}
>> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
>> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
>>
>> \begin{document}
>> $f'f''$
>> \end{document}
>> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Otared, thank you for confirmation. I also hope there will be a fix soon.
>>
>> In the meantime, I put yet another test file. The location of the
>> primes depends on the next character (I use, at the moment current
>> version: 2017.05.15 21:48)
>>
>> /Mikael
>>
>> \definefontfamily[myface][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
>> \definefontfamily[myface][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
>> \setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
>> \starttext
>> \startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
>> $f'(x)f''(x)f'f''$
>> \stopTEXpage
>> \stoptext
>> <primfisk.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Thanks Otared and Mathias!
>
> Hans, just to know, are you working on a fix? Is there anything more
> we can provide?
>
> Best regards, Mikael

In

current version: 2017.05.25 12:50

all problems I've noticed with primes seem to be gone! Now we can even
write $u''_p$ or $u_p''$.

Hans, your work and quick fix of this problem is very much appreciated!

Best regards, Mikael
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mathias Schickel]

> Am 25.05.2017 um 18:59 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
> 
> On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Mathias Schickel
>> <msch@fa.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>>> Hi Mikael and Otared,
>>> 
>>> I can confirm issues regarding primes, too. If you are using the STIX 2
>>> fonts (http://www.stixfonts.org) and my example below you get a somewhat
>>> strange behaviour of primes that is pretty obvious. I think the issues
>>> should be fixed.
>>> 
>>> By the way the issue seems to depend to some extend on the fonts. Using
>>> Lucida by \setupbodyfont[lucidaot] it is not that obvious but still present.
>>> Using Latin Modern it seems that the spacing between the primes changes
>>> between f'' and f^{''}. Cambria seems to show that behaviour (like Latin
>>> Modern), too, but less obvious.
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> Mathias
>>> 
>>> %% example
>>> \unprotect
>>> 
>>> \definefontfeature
>>> [stixtwo-math-feature]
>>> [kern=yes,
>>> ss01=no,    % calligraphic letters
>>> ss02=yes, % lowercase italic variants (e.g. open g)
>>> ss03=no, % hbar und lambdabar variants
>>> ss04=yes, % larger and lower primes, minute etc.
>>> ss05=no, % shorter arrows
>>> ss06=no, % narrower and shorter element and similar symbols
>>> ss07=no, % some smaller operators and emptyset variant
>>> ss08=yes, % upright integrals etc.
>>> ss09=no, % variant negated symbols
>>> ss10=yes, % variants of greater and lesser and similar symbols
>>> ss11=yes, % variant of negated set (inclusion etc.) symbols
>>> ss14=yes, %
>>> ss16=yes] % variants of circled operators
>>> 
>>> \starttypescriptcollection[Stix2]
>>> \starttypescript [\s!serif] [Stix2] [\s!all]
>>> \definefontsynonym
>>>            [Stix2Regular]
>>>            [file:STIX2Text-Regular.otf]
>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>            [Stix2Bold]
>>>            [file:STIX2Text-Bold.otf]
>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>            [Stix2Italic]
>>>            [file:STIX2Text-Italic.otf]
>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>            [Stix2BoldItalic]
>>>            [file:STIX2Text-BoldItalic.otf]
>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!Serif] [Stix2Regular] [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBold] [Stix2Bold]
>>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifItalic] [Stix2Italic]
>>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBoldItalic] [Stix2BoldItalic]
>>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>    \stoptypescript
>>> 
>>>    \starttypescript [\s!math] [Stix2]
>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>            [Stix2Math]
>>>            [file:STIX2Math.otf]
>>>            [features=math\mathsizesuffix]
>>>        \definefontsynonym [\s!MathRoman] [Stix2Math]
>>> [\s!features={\s!math\mathsizesuffix,mathextra,stixtwo-math-feature},\s!designsize=\s!auto]
>>>    \stoptypescript
>>> 
>>>    \starttypescript [Stix2]
>>>        \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!rm] [\s!serif] [Stix2]
>>> [\s!default]
>>>        \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!mm] [\s!math] [Stix2]
>>> [\s!default]
>>>    \stoptypescript
>>> 
>>> \stoptypescriptcollection
>>> 
>>> \protect
>>> 
>>> \setupbodyfont[Stix2]
>>> 
>>> \starttext
>>> %
>>> Compare $f'$ to $(f')$ and to $f''$, $(f'')$, $f^{''}$ and $(f^{''})$.
>>> %
>>> \stoptext
>>> %% end of example
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Am 22.05.2017 um 09:50 schrieb Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mikael,
>>> 
>>> You are correct, the position of \prime depends on whether there is a next
>>> character or not after it, and it seems that this has an effect on its
>>> position for characters having a subscript as in
>>> $f_{1}''(x) \neq f''_{1}(x)$
>>> $f'f''f'’'$
>>> Best regards: OK
>>> 
>>> On 22 May 2017, at 08:51, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mikael,
>>> 
>>> I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime
>>> operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii
>>> it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…).
>>> 
>>> The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even
>>> $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.
>>> 
>>> But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.
>>> 
>>> Best regards: OK
>>> 
>>> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> […]
>>> 
>>> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
>>> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
>>> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
>>> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
>>> 
>>> /Mikael
>>> 
>>> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
>>> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
>>> 
>>> \usepackage{unicode-math}
>>> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
>>> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
>>> 
>>> \begin{document}
>>> $f'f''$
>>> \end{document}
>>> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Otared, thank you for confirmation. I also hope there will be a fix soon.
>>> 
>>> In the meantime, I put yet another test file. The location of the
>>> primes depends on the next character (I use, at the moment current
>>> version: 2017.05.15 21:48)
>>> 
>>> /Mikael
>>> 
>>> \definefontfamily[myface][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
>>> \definefontfamily[myface][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
>>> \setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
>>> \starttext
>>> \startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
>>> $f'(x)f''(x)f'f''$
>>> \stopTEXpage
>>> \stoptext
>>> <primfisk.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>> the Wiki!
>>> 
>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> 
>> Thanks Otared and Mathias!
>> 
>> Hans, just to know, are you working on a fix? Is there anything more
>> we can provide?
>> 
>> Best regards, Mikael
> 
> In
> 
> current version: 2017.05.25 12:50
> 
> all problems I've noticed with primes seem to be gone! Now we can even
> write $u''_p$ or $u_p''$.
> 
> Hans, your work and quick fix of this problem is very much appreciated!
> 
> Best regards, Mikael


Hi Mikael and Hans,

I can confirm that, too: Everything is working very well in the current ConTeXt version.
Thank you very much, Hans, for quietly solving all reported issues regarding primes!

Best regards
Mathias


> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 10750 bytes --]

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:05 PM, Mathias Schickel
<msch@fa.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 25.05.2017 um 18:59 schrieb Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com>:
>>
>> On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 11:58 AM, Mathias Schickel
>>> <msch@fa.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:
>>>> Hi Mikael and Otared,
>>>>
>>>> I can confirm issues regarding primes, too. If you are using the STIX 2
>>>> fonts (http://www.stixfonts.org) and my example below you get a somewhat
>>>> strange behaviour of primes that is pretty obvious. I think the issues
>>>> should be fixed.
>>>>
>>>> By the way the issue seems to depend to some extend on the fonts. Using
>>>> Lucida by \setupbodyfont[lucidaot] it is not that obvious but still present.
>>>> Using Latin Modern it seems that the spacing between the primes changes
>>>> between f'' and f^{''}. Cambria seems to show that behaviour (like Latin
>>>> Modern), too, but less obvious.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Mathias
>>>>
>>>> %% example
>>>> \unprotect
>>>>
>>>> \definefontfeature
>>>> [stixtwo-math-feature]
>>>> [kern=yes,
>>>> ss01=no,    % calligraphic letters
>>>> ss02=yes, % lowercase italic variants (e.g. open g)
>>>> ss03=no, % hbar und lambdabar variants
>>>> ss04=yes, % larger and lower primes, minute etc.
>>>> ss05=no, % shorter arrows
>>>> ss06=no, % narrower and shorter element and similar symbols
>>>> ss07=no, % some smaller operators and emptyset variant
>>>> ss08=yes, % upright integrals etc.
>>>> ss09=no, % variant negated symbols
>>>> ss10=yes, % variants of greater and lesser and similar symbols
>>>> ss11=yes, % variant of negated set (inclusion etc.) symbols
>>>> ss14=yes, %
>>>> ss16=yes] % variants of circled operators
>>>>
>>>> \starttypescriptcollection[Stix2]
>>>> \starttypescript [\s!serif] [Stix2] [\s!all]
>>>> \definefontsynonym
>>>>            [Stix2Regular]
>>>>            [file:STIX2Text-Regular.otf]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>>            [Stix2Bold]
>>>>            [file:STIX2Text-Bold.otf]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>>            [Stix2Italic]
>>>>            [file:STIX2Text-Italic.otf]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>>            [Stix2BoldItalic]
>>>>            [file:STIX2Text-BoldItalic.otf]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!Serif] [Stix2Regular] [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBold] [Stix2Bold]
>>>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifItalic] [Stix2Italic]
>>>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym[\s!SerifBoldItalic] [Stix2BoldItalic]
>>>> [\s!features=\s!default]
>>>>    \stoptypescript
>>>>
>>>>    \starttypescript [\s!math] [Stix2]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym
>>>>            [Stix2Math]
>>>>            [file:STIX2Math.otf]
>>>>            [features=math\mathsizesuffix]
>>>>        \definefontsynonym [\s!MathRoman] [Stix2Math]
>>>> [\s!features={\s!math\mathsizesuffix,mathextra,stixtwo-math-feature},\s!designsize=\s!auto]
>>>>    \stoptypescript
>>>>
>>>>    \starttypescript [Stix2]
>>>>        \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!rm] [\s!serif] [Stix2]
>>>> [\s!default]
>>>>        \definetypeface [\typescriptone] [\s!mm] [\s!math] [Stix2]
>>>> [\s!default]
>>>>    \stoptypescript
>>>>
>>>> \stoptypescriptcollection
>>>>
>>>> \protect
>>>>
>>>> \setupbodyfont[Stix2]
>>>>
>>>> \starttext
>>>> %
>>>> Compare $f'$ to $(f')$ and to $f''$, $(f'')$, $f^{''}$ and $(f^{''})$.
>>>> %
>>>> \stoptext
>>>> %% end of example
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 22.05.2017 um 09:50 schrieb Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mikael,
>>>>
>>>> You are correct, the position of \prime depends on whether there is a next
>>>> character or not after it, and it seems that this has an effect on its
>>>> position for characters having a subscript as in
>>>> $f_{1}''(x) \neq f''_{1}(x)$
>>>> $f'f''f'’'$
>>>> Best regards: OK
>>>>
>>>> On 22 May 2017, at 08:51, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Otared Kavian <otared@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mikael,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with what you are reporting: the current behavior of the \prime
>>>> operator is not completely satisfying when using ConTeXt mkiv, while in mkii
>>>> it is the most satisfying (in my opinion…).
>>>>
>>>> The turn around consisting in using $f^{‘’}$ or  $f^{\prime\prime}$, or even
>>>> $f^{{}^{\prime\prime}}$, is not really satisfying either.
>>>>
>>>> But I think (or I hope that) at some point Hans will fix it in mkiv.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards: OK
>>>>
>>>> On 21 May 2017, at 08:14, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> […]
>>>>
>>>> And just for reference, the document below gives the attached pdf,
>>>> compiled with lualatex. I think the location of the primes there look
>>>> better. Sorry for spamming about this issue, but I think it is
>>>> important for all people writing math with ConTeXt.
>>>>
>>>> /Mikael
>>>>
>>>> \RequirePackage{luatex85}
>>>> \documentclass[border=2pt]{standalone}
>>>>
>>>> \usepackage{unicode-math}
>>>> \setmainfont{LucidaBrightOT}
>>>> \setmathfont{LucidaBrightMathOT}
>>>>
>>>> \begin{document}
>>>> $f'f''$
>>>> \end{document}
>>>> <lltest.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Otared, thank you for confirmation. I also hope there will be a fix soon.
>>>>
>>>> In the meantime, I put yet another test file. The location of the
>>>> primes depends on the next character (I use, at the moment current
>>>> version: 2017.05.15 21:48)
>>>>
>>>> /Mikael
>>>>
>>>> \definefontfamily[myface][rm][Lucida Bright OT]
>>>> \definefontfamily[myface][mm][Lucida Bright Math OT]
>>>> \setupbodyfont[myface,10pt]
>>>> \starttext
>>>> \startTEXpage[offset=2pt]
>>>> $f'(x)f''(x)f'f''$
>>>> \stopTEXpage
>>>> \stoptext
>>>> <primfisk.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>>>> the Wiki!
>>>>
>>>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>>>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>>>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>>>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>>>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Thanks Otared and Mathias!
>>>
>>> Hans, just to know, are you working on a fix? Is there anything more
>>> we can provide?
>>>
>>> Best regards, Mikael
>>
>> In
>>
>> current version: 2017.05.25 12:50
>>
>> all problems I've noticed with primes seem to be gone! Now we can even
>> write $u''_p$ or $u_p''$.
>>
>> Hans, your work and quick fix of this problem is very much appreciated!
>>
>> Best regards, Mikael
>
>
> Hi Mikael and Hans,
>
> I can confirm that, too: Everything is working very well in the current ConTeXt version.
> Thank you very much, Hans, for quietly solving all reported issues regarding primes!
>
> Best regards
> Mathias
>
>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

I hate to bring this up again, but look at the attached output of

%%%
%\setupbodyfont[lucidaot]

\starttext
\startformula
f'(0)=2\frac{f'(0)}{2}
\stopformula
\stoptext
%%%

The prime in the fraction is in my opinion too low (it is more clear
in the example with lucida).

/Mikael

[-- Attachment #2: ctx-listexample33.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 7828 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: ctx-listexample33-lucida.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 7184 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 492 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Otared Kavian]

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Hi Mikael,

Indeed your observation is correct, but using \over instead of \frac yields the correct behavior. Please try the following sample:

%%% begin derivatives-prime-4.tex
\setupbodyfont[lucidaot]

\starttext

Compare the position of the prime sign in $f'/g$ in these two expressions: the first one using \type{{... \over ...}}
\startformula
\left({f \over g}\right)' = {f' \over g} - {f \over g^2}g'
\stopformula
(which yields a correct position of the prime for $f'$ in $f'/g$), and the second using \type{\frac{...}{...}}
\startformula
\left(\frac{f}{g} \right)' = \frac{f'}{g} - \frac{f}{g^2} g'
\stopformula
which yields a prime sign for $f'$ a little bit lower.

\stoptext
%%% end derivatives-prime-4.tex



[-- Attachment #2: derivatives-prime-4.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 12831 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 996 bytes --]




> On 4 Jun 2017, at 19:42, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:

> […]
> 
> I hate to bring this up again, but look at the attached output of
> 
> %%%
> %\setupbodyfont[lucidaot]
> 
> \starttext
> \startformula
> f'(0)=2\frac{f'(0)}{2}
> \stopformula
> \stoptext
> %%%
> 
> The prime in the fraction is in my opinion too low (it is more clear
> in the example with lucida).
> 
> /Mikael
> <ctx-listexample33.pdf><ctx-listexample33-lucida.pdf>___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________


[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 492 bytes --]

___________________________________________________________________________________
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wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/4/2017 11:06 PM, Otared Kavian wrote:
> Hi Mikael,
> 
> Indeed your observation is correct, but using \over instead of \frac yields the correct behavior. Please try the following sample:
> 
> %%% begin derivatives-prime-4.tex
> \setupbodyfont[lucidaot]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> Compare the position of the prime sign in $f'/g$ in these two expressions: the first one using \type{{... \over ...}}
> \startformula
> \left({f \over g}\right)' = {f' \over g} - {f \over g^2}g'
> \stopformula
> (which yields a correct position of the prime for $f'$ in $f'/g$), and the second using \type{\frac{...}{...}}
> \startformula
> \left(\frac{f}{g} \right)' = \frac{f'}{g} - \frac{f}{g^2} g'
> \stopformula
> which yields a prime sign for $f'$ a little bit lower.
> 
> \stoptext
> %%% end derivatives-prime-4.tex
The problem with primes is that it's a real mess, conceptually as well 
as in fonts.

- we need to deal with not only one prime but also with double, tripple 
and quadruple ones and they need to become proper unicode symbols too

- fonts have one, two or three sizes, often inconsistent and with funny 
dimensions, onlyt the text size can be trusted

- we cannot use prime as nuclues as it can be combined with a subscript

- but it isn't designed as a script symbol and is already raised (somewhat)

- so we have to deal with a good old tex / fonts / plain inheritance, 
unicode but also want to avoid active character and parsing mess etc.

I tried several approaches and it's hard to come up with a general 
solution that suits all fonts.

Now, the bad is that when we use a superscript with a smashed virtual 
characters we end up in script choice mess with primes being one step 
too small.

So, I decided to follow a different route and extend luatex with a 
sizeless super/subscript feature so that we can handle such weird cases 
(there might be more).

This also means that the primes get larger. I only use the text size 
prime and scale that down for the other sizes i.e. no stty for primes as 
they are such a mess) but we can live with that.

The good news is that it gets better but the bad news is that you have 
to wait till we release luatex 1.0.5 (planned for the ctx meeting but we 
might do an intermediate garden release anyway).

btw, with \frac you get cramped styles and these have different 
positioning. Such is life.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3608 bytes --]

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 11:00 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 6/4/2017 11:06 PM, Otared Kavian wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mikael,
>>
>> Indeed your observation is correct, but using \over instead of \frac
>> yields the correct behavior. Please try the following sample:
>>
>> %%% begin derivatives-prime-4.tex
>> \setupbodyfont[lucidaot]
>>
>> \starttext
>>
>> Compare the position of the prime sign in $f'/g$ in these two expressions:
>> the first one using \type{{... \over ...}}
>> \startformula
>> \left({f \over g}\right)' = {f' \over g} - {f \over g^2}g'
>> \stopformula
>> (which yields a correct position of the prime for $f'$ in $f'/g$), and the
>> second using \type{\frac{...}{...}}
>> \startformula
>> \left(\frac{f}{g} \right)' = \frac{f'}{g} - \frac{f}{g^2} g'
>> \stopformula
>> which yields a prime sign for $f'$ a little bit lower.
>>
>> \stoptext
>> %%% end derivatives-prime-4.tex
>
> The problem with primes is that it's a real mess, conceptually as well as in
> fonts.
>
> - we need to deal with not only one prime but also with double, tripple and
> quadruple ones and they need to become proper unicode symbols too
>
> - fonts have one, two or three sizes, often inconsistent and with funny
> dimensions, onlyt the text size can be trusted
>
> - we cannot use prime as nuclues as it can be combined with a subscript
>
> - but it isn't designed as a script symbol and is already raised (somewhat)
>
> - so we have to deal with a good old tex / fonts / plain inheritance,
> unicode but also want to avoid active character and parsing mess etc.
>
> I tried several approaches and it's hard to come up with a general solution
> that suits all fonts.
>
> Now, the bad is that when we use a superscript with a smashed virtual
> characters we end up in script choice mess with primes being one step too
> small.
>
> So, I decided to follow a different route and extend luatex with a sizeless
> super/subscript feature so that we can handle such weird cases (there might
> be more).
>
> This also means that the primes get larger. I only use the text size prime
> and scale that down for the other sizes i.e. no stty for primes as they are
> such a mess) but we can live with that.
>
> The good news is that it gets better but the bad news is that you have to
> wait till we release luatex 1.0.5 (planned for the ctx meeting but we might
> do an intermediate garden release anyway).
>
> btw, with \frac you get cramped styles and these have different positioning.
> Such is life.
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________

Again, thanks.

In 2017.06.06 13:22 something is still not correct.

The input file

\startTEXpage[offset=3pt]
$f'(x)\hat{f}'(x)$
\stopTEXpage

gives the attached output. The prime of f'(x) looks wrong, the one of
\hat{f}'(x) looks correct.

/Mikael

[-- Attachment #2: ctx-listexample31.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 6455 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 492 bytes --]

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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 9:57 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 11:00 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> On 6/4/2017 11:06 PM, Otared Kavian wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mikael,
>>>
>>> Indeed your observation is correct, but using \over instead of \frac
>>> yields the correct behavior. Please try the following sample:
>>>
>>> %%% begin derivatives-prime-4.tex
>>> \setupbodyfont[lucidaot]
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>>
>>> Compare the position of the prime sign in $f'/g$ in these two expressions:
>>> the first one using \type{{... \over ...}}
>>> \startformula
>>> \left({f \over g}\right)' = {f' \over g} - {f \over g^2}g'
>>> \stopformula
>>> (which yields a correct position of the prime for $f'$ in $f'/g$), and the
>>> second using \type{\frac{...}{...}}
>>> \startformula
>>> \left(\frac{f}{g} \right)' = \frac{f'}{g} - \frac{f}{g^2} g'
>>> \stopformula
>>> which yields a prime sign for $f'$ a little bit lower.
>>>
>>> \stoptext
>>> %%% end derivatives-prime-4.tex
>>
>> The problem with primes is that it's a real mess, conceptually as well as in
>> fonts.
>>
>> - we need to deal with not only one prime but also with double, tripple and
>> quadruple ones and they need to become proper unicode symbols too
>>
>> - fonts have one, two or three sizes, often inconsistent and with funny
>> dimensions, onlyt the text size can be trusted
>>
>> - we cannot use prime as nuclues as it can be combined with a subscript
>>
>> - but it isn't designed as a script symbol and is already raised (somewhat)
>>
>> - so we have to deal with a good old tex / fonts / plain inheritance,
>> unicode but also want to avoid active character and parsing mess etc.
>>
>> I tried several approaches and it's hard to come up with a general solution
>> that suits all fonts.
>>
>> Now, the bad is that when we use a superscript with a smashed virtual
>> characters we end up in script choice mess with primes being one step too
>> small.
>>
>> So, I decided to follow a different route and extend luatex with a sizeless
>> super/subscript feature so that we can handle such weird cases (there might
>> be more).
>>
>> This also means that the primes get larger. I only use the text size prime
>> and scale that down for the other sizes i.e. no stty for primes as they are
>> such a mess) but we can live with that.
>>
>> The good news is that it gets better but the bad news is that you have to
>> wait till we release luatex 1.0.5 (planned for the ctx meeting but we might
>> do an intermediate garden release anyway).
>>
>> btw, with \frac you get cramped styles and these have different positioning.
>> Such is life.
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
>> the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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>> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Again, thanks.
>
> In 2017.06.06 13:22 something is still not correct.
>
> The input file
>
> \startTEXpage[offset=3pt]
> $f'(x)\hat{f}'(x)$
> \stopTEXpage
>
> gives the attached output. The prime of f'(x) looks wrong, the one of
> \hat{f}'(x) looks correct.
>
> /Mikael

I was too quick. The example

\setupbodyfont[lucidaot,10pt]
\setupmathematics[stylealternative={calligraphic}]% to get the normal
math lower case italic

\startTEXpage[offset=3pt]
$f'(x)\hat{f}'(x)$
\stopTEXpage

gives bad result in both cases. The first one with wrong size and
wrong vertical placement, the second one only with wrong vertical
placement (that was not obvious to me for latin modern).

/Mikael

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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/7/2017 9:57 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:

> In 2017.06.06 13:22 something is still not correct.
i mentioned that you need a new engine (the garden has 1.0.5 binafies 
for windows but other platforms need to be generated)

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 6/7/2017 9:57 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
>
>> In 2017.06.06 13:22 something is still not correct.
>
> i mentioned that you need a new engine (the garden has 1.0.5 binafies for
> windows but other platforms need to be generated)
>
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

Ah, sorry, I did not read your mail carefully enough. I tried to
compile 1.05 experimental from the svn, but I got some error, so I
will probably wait for the 1.05 release (or hope a bit for the
intermediate garden release, then).

/Mikael

PS: the ./build.sh (Checked out revision 6287) runs for a while, and
then stops with an error like this (it is probably my fault):

Makefile:368: recipe for target
'../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info' failed
make[2]: *** [../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info] Error 127
make[2]: Leaving directory
'/opt/luatex-experimental/experimental/build/texk/kpathsea/doc'
Makefile:1653: recipe for target 'all-recursive' failed
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory
'/opt/luatex-experimental/experimental/build/texk/kpathsea'
Makefile:814: recipe for target 'all' failed
make: *** [all] Error 2
./build.sh: line 291: cd: texk/web2c: No such file or directory
make: *** No rule to make target 'luatex'.  Stop.
strip: 'build/texk/web2c/luatex': No such file
ls: cannot access 'build/texk/web2c/luatex': No such file or directory
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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> PS: the ./build.sh (Checked out revision 6287) runs for a while, and
> then stops with an error like this (it is probably my fault):
>
> Makefile:368: recipe for target
> '../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info' failed
> make[2]: *** [../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info] Error 127

weird, the file is there.
Just to be sure,  which repo are you using ?


-- 
luigi
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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> PS: the ./build.sh (Checked out revision 6287) runs for a while, and
>> then stops with an error like this (it is probably my fault):
>>
>> Makefile:368: recipe for target
>> '../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info' failed
>> make[2]: *** [../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info] Error 127
>
> weird, the file is there.
> Just to be sure,  which repo are you using ?
>
>
> --
> luigi
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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I ran

svn checkout --username anonsvn --password anonsvn
https://foundry.supelec.fr/svn/luatex/branches/experimental/

I will try to wipe and redo. Maybe something went wrong.

/Mikael
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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> PS: the ./build.sh (Checked out revision 6287) runs for a while, and
>>> then stops with an error like this (it is probably my fault):
>>>
>>> Makefile:368: recipe for target
>>> '../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info' failed
>>> make[2]: *** [../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info] Error 127
>>
>> weird, the file is there.
>> Just to be sure,  which repo are you using ?
>>
>>
>> --
>> luigi
>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>>
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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>> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
> I ran
>
> svn checkout --username anonsvn --password anonsvn
> https://foundry.supelec.fr/svn/luatex/branches/experimental/
>
> I will try to wipe and redo. Maybe something went wrong.
>
> /Mikael

I get the same error with revision 6349 from
https://serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex/branches/experimental/ ,
see below. But maybe we are OT on this list now, and should either go
to luatex list or private?

/Mikael


Makefile:369: recipe for target
'../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info' failed
make[2]: *** [../../../../source/texk/kpathsea/doc/kpathsea.info] Error 127
make[2]: Leaving directory
'/opt/luatex-experimental/experimental/build/texk/kpathsea/doc'
Makefile:1634: recipe for target 'all-recursive' failed
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory
'/opt/luatex-experimental/experimental/build/texk/kpathsea'
Makefile:816: recipe for target 'all' failed
make: *** [all] Error 2
./build.sh: line 294: cd: texk/web2c: No such file or directory
make: *** No rule to make target 'luatex'.  Stop.
strip: 'build/texk/web2c/luatex': No such file
ls: cannot access 'build/texk/web2c/luatex': No such file or directory
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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
> I get the same error with revision 6349 from
> https://serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex/branches/experimental/ ,
> see below. But maybe we are OT on this list now, and should either go
> to luatex list or private?
not OT,
I am checking.




-- 
luigi
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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:42 AM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Mikael P. Sundqvist <mickep@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I get the same error with revision 6349 from
>> https://serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex/branches/experimental/ ,
>> see below. But maybe we are OT on this list now, and should either go
>> to luatex list or private?
> not OT,
> I am checking.
>
>
>
>
> --
> luigi
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

With some hands on help from Taco and luigi the compilation worked (I
had not installed icu-config, freetype-config, makeinfo, which might
help someone else).

And indeed, in luatex 1.05 the primes look fine again. The prime in
the fraction is too low, but I take Hans' "Such is life" and use \over
for the rare cases where I have primes inside fractions.

Thanks to all!

/Mikael
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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 8 Jun 2017, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:

> And indeed, in luatex 1.05 the primes look fine again. The prime in
> the fraction is too low, but I take Hans' "Such is life" and use \over
> for the rare cases where I have primes inside fractions.

I haven't followed the thread carefully, but there is nothing special in 
\frac. The likely cause is prime is misplaced in cramped style or similar 
and similar misplacement will happen whenever that style is used.

I would be weary of using {... \over ...}. At the very least, use
\Ustack{... \over ...}, else any code that uses \mathstyle (instead of 
\mathchoice) will fail.

For an explaination, see Taco's answer here:
https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/1261/323

Aditya


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Re: Position of prime for derivatives

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/8/2017 4:29 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Jun 2017, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
> 
>> And indeed, in luatex 1.05 the primes look fine again. The prime in
>> the fraction is too low, but I take Hans' "Such is life" and use \over
>> for the rare cases where I have primes inside fractions.
> 
> I haven't followed the thread carefully, but there is nothing special in 
> \frac. The likely cause is prime is misplaced in cramped style or 
> similar and similar misplacement will happen whenever that style is used.
> 
> I would be weary of using {... \over ...}. At the very least, use
> \Ustack{... \over ...}, else any code that uses \mathstyle (instead of 
> \mathchoice) will fail.
> 
> For an explaination, see Taco's answer here:
> https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/1261/323
indeed, the problem is that \over (and friends) are the only tricky 
parsing bits (ahead/back) and as a consequence have tricky style related 
issues (which also means often extra {} is needed as in

{ { foo } \over { bar } }

in order not to let style changes in foo and bar interfere ... only 
meant for low level parsing and expansion lovers

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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