Re: [NTG-context] new units

Re: [NTG-context] new units

[skyhorse--- via ntg-context]

Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>......
> Oh, so a bug, I'll fix the message. Not really a unit but then, feet
> is also not one.
>

That is incorrect.  Feet is an establish and proper unit of measurement, which consists of 12 inches.  It is used by, at least, several hundred million people.  It can be said that the ability to grok and manipulate fractions has many benefits, which the metric system sorely lacks.

Cheers
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Michael Urban via ntg-context]

If you are going to introduce new units, you should at least include the Potrzebie, invented by teenager Donald Knuth and published in the humor magazine Mad Magazine #33.  The system is based on the thickness of Mad Magazine #26, equal to 2.2633484517438173216473 mm.
See the Wikipedia entry for 'potrzebie' for more information, or search for suitable images.

Honestly, I don't know how Knuth resisted putting this in plain TeX.
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Alan Braslau via ntg-context]

On Sat, 06 May 2023 16:10:31 -0800
skyhorse--- via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> 
> 
> Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> >......
> > Oh, so a bug, I'll fix the message. Not really a unit but then, feet
> > is also not one.
> >
> 
> That is incorrect.  Feet is an establish and proper unit of
> measurement, which consists of 12 inches.  It is used by, at least,
> several hundred million people.  It can be said that the ability to
> grok and manipulate fractions has many benefits, which the metric
> system sorely lacks.

The inch is properly defined as *exactly* 2.54cm.
So the foot is a proper unit defined as 12*2.54cm.

Manipulating fractions, I stated, is the entire point of Imperial
measurements.

Now go figure: Physical Review Letters once objected to my publishing a
graph without units on the abscissa. I satisfied the editor by adding
$[m\times m^{-1}]$ (my graph was in radians).

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Mikael Sundqvist via ntg-context]

Hi Michael,

On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 4:43 AM Michael Urban via ntg-context
<ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
> If you are going to introduce new units, you should at least include the Potrzebie, invented by teenager Donald Knuth and published in the humor magazine Mad Magazine #33.  The system is based on the thickness of Mad Magazine #26, equal to 2.2633484517438173216473 mm.
> See the Wikipedia entry for 'potrzebie' for more information, or search for suitable images.
>
> Honestly, I don't know how Knuth resisted putting this in plain TeX.

It is already there for a while, as dk.

/Mikael
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/7/2023 4:43 AM, Michael Urban via ntg-context wrote:
> If you are going to introduce new units, you should at least include the Potrzebie, invented by teenager Donald Knuth and published in the humor magazine Mad Magazine #33.  The system is based on the thickness of Mad Magazine #26, equal to 2.2633484517438173216473 mm.
> See the Wikipedia entry for 'potrzebie' for more information, or search for suitable images.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know how Knuth resisted putting this in plain TeX.
Plain TeX is a format so ther it would be easy, just define

\newdimen\potrzebie  \potrzebie = 422042sp

but for a real unit you need to adapt the original engine and that will 
not happen because it's in bug fix only mode.

Anyway, you can try it in lmtx:

\startTEXpage[offset=1dk]
     \number\dimexpr1dk
\stopTEXpage

As introduced in:

https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb42-3/tb132hagen-dk.pdf

Like the ts is makes a nice offset.

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/7/2023 2:10 AM, skyhorse--- via ntg-context wrote:
> 
> 
> Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>> ......
>> Oh, so a bug, I'll fix the message. Not really a unit but then, feet
>> is also not one.
>>
> 
> That is incorrect.  Feet is an establish and proper unit of measurement, which consists of 12 inches.  It is used by, at least, several hundred million people.  It can be said that the ability to grok and manipulate fractions has many benefits, which the metric system sorely lacks.
Sure, but it's not a unit in tex like 10ft so reporting 19 feet looks a 
bit odd for the (majority) texusers who dont'use feet. (we have mm and 
cm but not in and ft). I suppose yards could also have been used but 
probably points out more prominently the limitation.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voet_(lengtemaat)

An amsterdam voet being somewhat smaller actually would have made 20 
which is a nicer number and also fits the base 20 inuit system discussed 
a few weeks ago.

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Alan Braslau via ntg-context]

On Sun, 7 May 2023 13:00:18 +0100
Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> Will there be new units to represent the amount of alcohol that has
> to be imbibed in order to (a) create the joke and (b) understand it?
> 
> I'm not sure which of these needs to be the larger. Perhaps that
> could be the subject of the next research?

The moral of the story is that we all missed something by not attending
BachoTeX - as is the case every year. One should note Hans' reference
to the gala dinner, which is better characterized by an excess of
dishes of food than by an excess of alcohol.

We have an opportunity to make up for this missed occasion this year by
attending the annual ConTeXt meeting. Of course, these two meetings are
complementary and ideally one should aim at attending *both*.

As to the Dutch left and right thumbs, the French word is also "pouce"
for the length of an inchworm. My question is, what is the appropriate
unit for inching forward or inching along? Would this be one inch per
fortnight?

Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 07.05.23 um 12:29 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
> Edith Sundqvist  : on-site research, presentation
> Mikael Sundqvist : scientific supervisor, calibration, article
> Willi Egger      : quality assurance, edithorial device
> Karl Berry       : peer review, tugboat
> Hans Hagen       : implementation, article

Ah, now I get more of it – more context is usually desirable.

Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

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Hi Hraban,

Attached a picture of the edithorial which is now in posession of the 
one who's name comes closest to it. A bit like the 'meter' makes Paris 
famous, this one will put the (engineering) university of Lund on the 
map. Up to the reader to figure out the magick slot and workings. Yet 
another one of Willis masterpieces of woodwork and packaging.

If Alan had been present we might have gone for measuring toes intead of 
thumbs but then we'd end up with 30mm median I guess. Actually, by going 
discrete we also made sure thet people with different left and right 
thumbs (we hadn't anticipated that actually) were satisfied, something 
that was demood live on camera. It's in de details.

Hans

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[-- Attachment #2: musings-unit-final-3.jpg --]
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[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 496 bytes --]

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/7/2023 2:00 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 7 May 2023, at 10:45, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>>
>> ps. For those unfamiliar with the tex community, when we talk 'research' and such, keep in mind that most tex related research is kind of bogus, wishful thinking, sounding serious, etc. and that most 'projects' are just 'activities by enthousiatic users' In the end it's all about esthetics which is more about feeling and intuition and pretty much driven by user demsnds. In a similar fashion most 'tex conferences' are more user meetings.
> 
> 
> Will there be new units to represent the amount of alcohol that has to be imbibed in order to (a) create the joke and (b) understand it?
> 
> I'm not sure which of these needs to be the larger. Perhaps that could be the subject of the next research?
During the meeting (aka conference) and in preparation Mikael and I were 
on 0% alcohol beers, so effectively that unit would then be a multiplier 
of zero, but I'm sure you can find a usage for that.

I forgot to check what the pct was of the wine at the (as usual) huge 
dinner but I can check the bottle I got from DT. Talking percentages, 
maybe some high res percentage primitive is interesting (we have 
.4\somedimen but for counters one needs to cheat a bit).

Actually we were talking of some 'eps' and interval based comparison in 
order to avoid small issues with accumulated rounding (in the sp range) 
but that is a side track.

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context]

> On 7 May 2023, at 10:45, Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
> 
> ps. For those unfamiliar with the tex community, when we talk 'research' and such, keep in mind that most tex related research is kind of bogus, wishful thinking, sounding serious, etc. and that most 'projects' are just 'activities by enthousiatic users' In the end it's all about esthetics which is more about feeling and intuition and pretty much driven by user demsnds. In a similar fashion most 'tex conferences' are more user meetings.


Will there be new units to represent the amount of alcohol that has to be imbibed in order to (a) create the joke and (b) understand it?

I'm not sure which of these needs to be the larger. Perhaps that could be the subject of the next research?

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/7/2023 12:09 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:

> I know it’s not funny to explain jokes, but I don’t seem to know all 
> people involved.

You know a subset:

Edith Sundqvist  : on-site research, presentation
Mikael Sundqvist : scientific supervisor, calibration, article
Willi Egger      : quality assurance, edithorial device
Karl Berry       : peer review, tugboat
Hans Hagen       : implementation, article

It was a three person presentation on multiple laptops and phones, so 
very serious indeed. It would not work for a large audience with a 
distance of more than 100 es (20 theodores) distance to the audience as 
the audience was also participating.

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 07.05.23 um 11:45 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
>> I didn’t understand all details, and I guess some spelling errors are 
>> intentional – was there a Calli? Does “precission” refer to anything? 
>> And what’s the abbreviation for Theodores?
> the theodore is only used in reporting an overflow so no real unit (just 
> like feet is no unit in tex but used in the message)

of course

> concerning precission, indeed there was a real beautiful handcrafted 
> measuring device but as with much research one could sort of predict the 
> median outcome esp after the main sample was made beforehand by 
> carefully checking some resources; it was nice to see how most 
> attendents properties fit the bill

I thought maybe a play on precision vs. precession

> (Alan will be pleased to know that actually the Thumb was the starting 
> point which happens to be close to an inch and the oid Dutch measure is 
> Duim.)

I understand that the rule of thumb is the rule of 1/11 feet in Amsterdam.

> ps. So 'I didn’t understand all details' is quite okay because the idea 
> was to put you on the wrong foot (or theodore). It helps when you knwo 
> the people involved, does it?

I know it’s not funny to explain jokes, but I don’t seem to know all 
people involved.

Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/7/2023 11:29 AM, Mojca Miklavec via ntg-context wrote:
> On Sun, 7 May 2023 at 11:11, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
>>
>> And what’s the abbreviation for Theodores?
> 
> I assume it must be "tr", though it's somewhat ambiguous what the "r"
> in "tr" stands for, it seems to be country-dependent ;)
actually: as arthur and you are in charge of the language patterns, 
guess who will sort this out,

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/7/2023 11:29 AM, Mojca Miklavec via ntg-context wrote:
> On Sun, 7 May 2023 at 11:11, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
>>
>> And what’s the abbreviation for Theodores?
> 
> I assume it must be "tr", though it's somewhat ambiguous what the "r"
> in "tr" stands for, it seems to be country-dependent ;)
The problem with introducing the theodore is that it introduces another 
'male name' unit while actually the new ones got 'female names' in order 
to counter the didot and cicero (and dk although we considere that a 
neutral unit), which was one of the projects objectives.

Okay, we can from now on assume the 'mm' to be the Mojca which is also 
more officient: 4 mojcas instead of 4 millimeters. It's a downward 
compatible change (only in the documentation). Then we can introduce the 
tr as precisely 5 es, a kind of snaposhot unit, whgich makes me wonder, 
as the theodore eventually will come close to a foot we might have a 
\thfactor then that starts out at 5. We can decide at the ctx meeting.

(In case one wonders: because internally tex works with fractions mm/cm 
and ts/es (/tr) make sense.)

(As explained during the presentation, adding units to luametatex is not 
really putting a (performance) burden on this engine. In pdftex and 
luatex it would have an impact, although in luatex somewhat less because 
we prioritize our favourite units anyway.)

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/7/2023 11:10 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
> Am 04.05.23 um 10:01 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
>> Hi,
>>
>> We now officially have three new units. These were officially 
>> introducd at the 2023 BachoTeX meeting in a presentation where the 
>> chair of the four person strong team also did the final live 
>> callibration (using the edithorial callibration instrument made for 
>> that purpose). An upcoming article in TB will explain the details of 
>> the process and also a careful mathematical annalysis of how we 
>> reached the right value with a high precission. The actual 
>> implementation is the most boring part.
> 
> Hi Hans, can I have the article also for CGJ, please?
> 
> I didn’t understand all details, and I guess some spelling errors are 
> intentional – was there a Calli? Does “precission” refer to anything? 
> And what’s the abbreviation for Theodores?
the theodore is only used in reporting an overflow so no real unit (just 
like feet is no unit in tex but used in the message)

an article is chicken-egg ... it goes into the tugboat (already checked 
and prepared, read peer reviewed) but it is no big deal if the ctx 
journal takes it afterwards (plenty of time) and then the cg members are 
also informed (it will go in the distribution anyway but normally i wait 
till after publication)

concerning precission, indeed there was a real beautiful handcrafted 
measuring device but as with much research one could sort of predict the 
median outcome esp after the main sample was made beforehand by 
carefully checking some resources; it was nice to see how most 
attendents properties fit the bill

(Alan will be pleased to know that actually the Thumb was the starting 
point which happens to be close to an inch and the oid Dutch measure is 
Duim.)

Hans

ps. For those unfamiliar with the tex community, when we talk 'research' 
and such, keep in mind that most tex related research is kind of bogus, 
wishful thinking, sounding serious, etc. and that most 'projects' are 
just 'activities by enthousiatic users' In the end it's all about 
esthetics which is more about feeling and intuition and pretty much 
driven by user demsnds. In a similar fashion most 'tex conferences' are 
more user meetings.

ps. So 'I didn’t understand all details' is quite okay because the idea 
was to put you on the wrong foot (or theodore). It helps when you knwo 
the people involved, does it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Mojca Miklavec via ntg-context]

On Sun, 7 May 2023 at 11:11, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
>
> And what’s the abbreviation for Theodores?

I assume it must be "tr", though it's somewhat ambiguous what the "r"
in "tr" stands for, it seems to be country-dependent ;)

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 04.05.23 um 10:01 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
> Hi,
> 
> We now officially have three new units. These were officially introducd 
> at the 2023 BachoTeX meeting in a presentation where the chair of the 
> four person strong team also did the final live callibration (using the 
> edithorial callibration instrument made for that purpose). An upcoming 
> article in TB will explain the details of the process and also a careful 
> mathematical annalysis of how we reached the right value with a high 
> precission. The actual implementation is the most boring part.

Hi Hans, can I have the article also for CGJ, please?

I didn’t understand all details, and I guess some spelling errors are 
intentional – was there a Calli? Does “precission” refer to anything? 
And what’s the abbreviation for Theodores?

Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/6/2023 11:53 PM, Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context wrote:
> On Thu, May 04, 2023 at 10:01:25AM +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
>> These units can be used in the current upload. In a next upload the "19 feet
>> max" message that tex issues when reaching a maximum will be adapted to a
>> more realistic variant. (Actually, because tex has no foot unit, we could as
>> well replace that with a more impressive little feet unit but we forgot to
>> measure the smallest foot present which i guess was about 3 es so the limit
>> is then some 75 bare theodores.)
> 
>    I measured the theodore at 13cm, so that puts the limit at about 45
> theodores, actually.
Oh, so a bug, I'll fix the message. Not really a unit but then, feet is 
also not one.

\newdimension\theodore \theodore=5es

You can also abuse the eu unit:

\eufactor50 % times ts

x\hskip1eu x


Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Thu, May 04, 2023 at 10:01:25AM +0200, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> These units can be used in the current upload. In a next upload the "19 feet
> max" message that tex issues when reaching a maximum will be adapted to a
> more realistic variant. (Actually, because tex has no foot unit, we could as
> well replace that with a more impressive little feet unit but we forgot to
> measure the smallest foot present which i guess was about 3 es so the limit
> is then some 75 bare theodores.)

  I measured the theodore at 13cm, so that puts the limit at about 45
theodores, actually.

	Best,

		Arthur
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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 5/6/2023 6:45 PM, Alan Braslau wrote:
> The whole point of the so-called "imperial" units is to be based on
> fractions, not decimal. May I suggest that we use \sqrt2 as the basis
> of our fractions, so as to push the limits of calculation and precision
> (that are handled well in the new lmtx engine).
> 
> Also, on this day of coronation, post-Brexit, I believe that the ConTeXt
> community should get behind the promotion of obscure Imperial units,
> relegating the metric system to scientists who have no choice but to
> adhere to the Système International.
> 
> Alan (who could not participate in the discussions of the committee of
> four)

Well, the Polish oversight seemed to a agree and the team was awarded by 
arthur who donated cute "Let's make TeX little again" hats, but more 
about that later. The unit was applied by the main presenter when the 
big cake got cut into pieces measuring 4es ^ 2 which i admit is a bit 
less than 4in ^2.

But, if you're really into old units we can measure your feet and 
replace "max 19 feet" message by "max 20 braslaus".

Actually you can do a sqrt:

\starttext
     \the\floatexpr\pfsqrt 2\relax

     \the\pfsqrt 2\relax

     \scratchdimen\floatexpr\pfsqrt 2\relax
     \the\scratchdimen

     \scratchdimen\pfsqrt 2\relax
     \the\scratchdimen
\stoptext

but you already knew that.

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] new units

[Alan Braslau via ntg-context]

The whole point of the so-called "imperial" units is to be based on
fractions, not decimal. May I suggest that we use \sqrt2 as the basis
of our fractions, so as to push the limits of calculation and precision
(that are handled well in the new lmtx engine).

Also, on this day of coronation, post-Brexit, I believe that the ConTeXt
community should get behind the promotion of obscure Imperial units,
relegating the metric system to scientists who have no choice but to
adhere to the Système International.

Alan (who could not participate in the discussions of the committee of
four)


On Thu, 4 May 2023 10:01:25 +0200
Hans Hagen via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> We now officially have three new units. These were officially
> introducd at the 2023 BachoTeX meeting in a presentation where the
> chair of the four person strong team also did the final live
> callibration (using the edithorial callibration instrument made for
> that purpose). An upcoming article in TB will explain the details of
> the process and also a careful mathematical annalysis of how we
> reached the right value with a high precission. The actual
> implementation is the most boring part.
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \startTEXpage[offset=1ts]
>      Hello World!
> 
>      \the\dimexpr 1ts
> 
>      \the\dimexpr 1es
> 
>      \the\dimexpr 1eu
> 
>      \eufactor20
> 
>      \the\dimexpr 1eu
> \stopTEXpage
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> The es (Edith) unit replaces the inch, and the ts (Tove) is one
> tenths of than (just like we have cm and mm). The eu (European Unit)
> is an adaptive one that defaults to 10 ts == 1es and can be
> multiplied by setting the \eufactor (default 10) which makes it
> possible to define layouts that easilly scale to different output
> media (important for the mobile phone / table generation).
> 
> This means that MWE that use inches will likely no longer be
> considered valid and probably will be dealt with slower (or just
> ignored).
> 
> These units can be used in the current upload. In a next upload the
> "19 feet max" message that tex issues when reaching a maximum will be 
> adapted to a more realistic variant. (Actually, because tex has no
> foot unit, we could as well replace that with a more impressive
> little feet unit but we forgot to measure the smallest foot present
> which i guess was about 3 es so the limit is then some 75 bare
> theodores.)
> 
> Hans

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[NTG-context] new units

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

Hi,

We now officially have three new units. These were officially introducd 
at the 2023 BachoTeX meeting in a presentation where the chair of the 
four person strong team also did the final live callibration (using the 
edithorial callibration instrument made for that purpose). An upcoming 
article in TB will explain the details of the process and also a careful 
mathematical annalysis of how we reached the right value with a high 
precission. The actual implementation is the most boring part.

\starttext

\startTEXpage[offset=1ts]
     Hello World!

     \the\dimexpr 1ts

     \the\dimexpr 1es

     \the\dimexpr 1eu

     \eufactor20

     \the\dimexpr 1eu
\stopTEXpage

\stoptext

The es (Edith) unit replaces the inch, and the ts (Tove) is one tenths 
of than (just like we have cm and mm). The eu (European Unit) is an 
adaptive one that defaults to 10 ts == 1es and can be multiplied by 
setting the \eufactor (default 10) which makes it possible to define 
layouts that easilly scale to different output media (important for the 
mobile phone / table generation).

This means that MWE that use inches will likely no longer be considered 
valid and probably will be dealt with slower (or just ignored).

These units can be used in the current upload. In a next upload the "19 
feet max" message that tex issues when reaching a maximum will be 
adapted to a more realistic variant. (Actually, because tex has no foot 
unit, we could as well replace that with a more impressive little feet 
unit but we forgot to measure the smallest foot present which i guess 
was about 3 es so the limit is then some 75 bare theodores.)

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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