Second derivative ''

Second derivative ''

[Weber, Matthias]

Dear List,

\starttext
\startformula
\left(f\right)'' = f''
\stopformula
\stoptext

has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on ConTeXt live as well as in my slightly older version.
What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?

Thanks,

Matthias
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Re: Second derivative ''

[Henri Menke]

Looks like the ligature is broken.

\starttext

\startformula
\left(f\right)'' = f''
\stopformula

\startformula
\left(f\right)″ = f″
\stopformula

\stoptext

On 3/5/20 11:44 AM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
> Dear List,
> 
> \starttext
> \startformula
> \left(f\right)'' = f''
> \stopformula
> \stoptext
> 
> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on ConTeXt live as well as in my slightly older version.
> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matthias
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Hans Hagen]

On 3/4/2020 11:44 PM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
> Dear List,
> 
> \starttext
> \startformula
> \left(f\right)'' = f''
> \stopformula
> \stoptext
> 
> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on ConTeXt live as well as in my slightly older version.
> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
you have to turn on

\setupmathematics
   [collapsing=3]

but it has the side effect of also collapsing more:

$x'' >= 10$

(which is why the mechanism is currently turned off by default)

i'll think about an option that only does some specific ones only

(btw, i love tex but these primes are a bit painful due to th eorriginal 
approach which has lead mixtures of (1) raised in the font and/or raised 
in the engine, (2) them being superscripts but not really, (3) fonts 
therefore doing it inconsistently, (4) some parsing related to multiple 
scripts, (5) double, tripple, etc primes being real unicode characters 
but spaced singles in traditional tex (which itself then introduces some 
size juggling) ... i could proabbly write a few pages about it)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Hans Hagen]

On 3/5/2020 10:12 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 3/4/2020 11:44 PM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
>> Dear List,
>>
>> \starttext
>> \startformula
>> \left(f\right)'' = f''
>> \stopformula
>> \stoptext
>>
>> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on ConTeXt live 
>> as well as in my slightly older version.
>> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
> you have to turn on
> 
> \setupmathematics
>    [collapsing=3]
i'll default to collapsing=1

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Aditya Mahajan]

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On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, Hans Hagen wrote:

> On 3/4/2020 11:44 PM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
>> Dear List,
>> 
>> \starttext
>> \startformula
>> \left(f\right)'' = f''
>> \stopformula
>> \stoptext
>> 
>> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on ConTeXt live as 
> well as in my slightly older version.
>> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
> you have to turn on
>
> \setupmathematics
>   [collapsing=3]
>
> but it has the side effect of also collapsing more:
>
> $x'' >= 10$
>
> (which is why the mechanism is currently turned off by default)
>
> i'll think about an option that only does some specific ones only
>
> (btw, i love tex but these primes are a bit painful due to th eorriginal 
> approach which has lead mixtures of (1) raised in the font and/or raised 
> in the engine, (2) them being superscripts but not really, (3) fonts 
> therefore doing it inconsistently, (4) some parsing related to multiple 
> scripts, (5) double, tripple, etc primes being real unicode characters 
> but spaced singles in traditional tex (which itself then introduces some 
> size juggling) ... i could proabbly write a few pages about it)

So what's the best way to input them: using \prime, \prime\prime, etc.?

Aditya

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 5:36 PM Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, Hans Hagen wrote:
>
> > On 3/4/2020 11:44 PM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
> >> Dear List,
> >>
> >> \starttext
> >> \startformula
> >> \left(f\right)'' = f''
> >> \stopformula
> >> \stoptext
> >>
> >> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on ConTeXt live
> as
> > well as in my slightly older version.
> >> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
> > you have to turn on
> >
> > \setupmathematics
> >   [collapsing=3]
> >
> > but it has the side effect of also collapsing more:
> >
> > $x'' >= 10$
> >
> > (which is why the mechanism is currently turned off by default)
> >
> > i'll think about an option that only does some specific ones only
> >
> > (btw, i love tex but these primes are a bit painful due to th eorriginal
> > approach which has lead mixtures of (1) raised in the font and/or raised
> > in the engine, (2) them being superscripts but not really, (3) fonts
> > therefore doing it inconsistently, (4) some parsing related to multiple
> > scripts, (5) double, tripple, etc primes being real unicode characters
> > but spaced singles in traditional tex (which itself then introduces some
> > size juggling) ... i could proabbly write a few pages about it)
>
> So what's the best way to input them: using \prime, \prime\prime, etc.?
>
>
> Aditya___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

And what is the way if one also want indices:

$f''_{xx}$ or $f_{xx}''$ or ... ?

I want the indices under the primes

/Mikael

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Hans Hagen]

On 3/5/2020 5:36 PM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
>> On 3/4/2020 11:44 PM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> \starttext
>>> \startformula
>>> \left(f\right)'' = f''
>>> \stopformula
>>> \stoptext
>>>
>>> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on ConTeXt 
>>> live as 
>> well as in my slightly older version.
>>> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
>> you have to turn on
>>
>> \setupmathematics
>>   [collapsing=3]
>>
>> but it has the side effect of also collapsing more:
>>
>> $x'' >= 10$
>>
>> (which is why the mechanism is currently turned off by default)
>>
>> i'll think about an option that only does some specific ones only
>>
>> (btw, i love tex but these primes are a bit painful due to th 
>> eorriginal approach which has lead mixtures of (1) raised in the font 
>> and/or raised in the engine, (2) them being superscripts but not 
>> really, (3) fonts therefore doing it inconsistently, (4) some parsing 
>> related to multiple scripts, (5) double, tripple, etc primes being 
>> real unicode characters but spaced singles in traditional tex (which 
>> itself then introduces some size juggling) ... i could proabbly write 
>> a few pages about it)
> 
> So what's the best way to input them: using \prime, \prime\prime, etc.?
well, there is quite some magic that handles all so with

  \setupmathematics
    [collapsing=1] % or higher

it should work ok with '

of course one can also use the unicode characters

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Hans Hagen]

On 3/5/2020 5:41 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 5:36 PM Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu 
> <mailto:adityam@umich.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
>      > On 3/4/2020 11:44 PM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
>      >> Dear List,
>      >>
>      >> \starttext
>      >> \startformula
>      >> \left(f\right)'' = f''
>      >> \stopformula
>      >> \stoptext
>      >>
>      >> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on
>     ConTeXt live as
>      > well as in my slightly older version.
>      >> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
>      > you have to turn on
>      >
>      > \setupmathematics
>      >   [collapsing=3]
>      >
>      > but it has the side effect of also collapsing more:
>      >
>      > $x'' >= 10$
>      >
>      > (which is why the mechanism is currently turned off by default)
>      >
>      > i'll think about an option that only does some specific ones only
>      >
>      > (btw, i love tex but these primes are a bit painful due to th
>     eorriginal
>      > approach which has lead mixtures of (1) raised in the font and/or
>     raised
>      > in the engine, (2) them being superscripts but not really, (3) fonts
>      > therefore doing it inconsistently, (4) some parsing related to
>     multiple
>      > scripts, (5) double, tripple, etc primes being real unicode
>     characters
>      > but spaced singles in traditional tex (which itself then
>     introduces some
>      > size juggling) ... i could proabbly write a few pages about it)
> 
>     So what's the best way to input them: using \prime, \prime\prime, etc.?
> 
>     Aditya___________________________________________________________________________________
>     If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
>     entry to the Wiki!
> 
>     maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
>     http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>     webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>     archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>     wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>     ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> And what is the way if one also want indices:
> 
> $f''_{xx}$ or $f_{xx}''$ or ... ?
> 
> I want the indices under the primes

did you try with

\setupmathematics
   [collapsing=1]

both work but (i'm no mathematician) i'd opt for

$f_{xx}''$

as it says take the second something from f_{whatever} unless of course 
the index applies the second something

But i bet that Aditya can give the real answer.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
        tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 6:34 PM Hans Hagen <j.hagen@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> On 3/5/2020 5:41 PM, Mikael P. Sundqvist wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 5:36 PM Aditya Mahajan <adityam@umich.edu
> > <mailto:adityam@umich.edu>> wrote:
> >
> >     On Thu, 5 Mar 2020, Hans Hagen wrote:
> >
> >      > On 3/4/2020 11:44 PM, Weber, Matthias wrote:
> >      >> Dear List,
> >      >>
> >      >> \starttext
> >      >> \startformula
> >      >> \left(f\right)'' = f''
> >      >> \stopformula
> >      >> \stoptext
> >      >>
> >      >> has the second apostrophe set too low. This is in MKIV on
> >     ConTeXt live as
> >      > well as in my slightly older version.
> >      >> What is the “right” way to typeset a second derivative?
> >      > you have to turn on
> >      >
> >      > \setupmathematics
> >      >   [collapsing=3]
> >      >
> >      > but it has the side effect of also collapsing more:
> >      >
> >      > $x'' >= 10$
> >      >
> >      > (which is why the mechanism is currently turned off by default)
> >      >
> >      > i'll think about an option that only does some specific ones only
> >      >
> >      > (btw, i love tex but these primes are a bit painful due to th
> >     eorriginal
> >      > approach which has lead mixtures of (1) raised in the font and/or
> >     raised
> >      > in the engine, (2) them being superscripts but not really, (3)
> fonts
> >      > therefore doing it inconsistently, (4) some parsing related to
> >     multiple
> >      > scripts, (5) double, tripple, etc primes being real unicode
> >     characters
> >      > but spaced singles in traditional tex (which itself then
> >     introduces some
> >      > size juggling) ... i could proabbly write a few pages about it)
> >
> >     So what's the best way to input them: using \prime, \prime\prime,
> etc.?
> >
> >
>  Aditya___________________________________________________________________________________
> >     If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> >     entry to the Wiki!
> >
> >     maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl <mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl> /
> >     http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> >     webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> >     archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> >     wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> >
>  ___________________________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> > And what is the way if one also want indices:
> >
> > $f''_{xx}$ or $f_{xx}''$ or ... ?
> >
> > I want the indices under the primes
>
> did you try with
>
> \setupmathematics
>    [collapsing=1]
>
> both work but (i'm no mathematician) i'd opt for
>
> $f_{xx}''$
>
> as it says take the second something from f_{whatever} unless of course
> the index applies the second something
>
> But i bet that Aditya can give the real answer.
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                            Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>                Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>         tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

Oh, I had not. It looks better with collapsing=1, indeed. A few neq
questions comes to me:

Does ConTeXt not use the same prime character as in TeX/LaTeX? Or has
something changed in latin modern? See the attached pdf files
(derivatives.pdf from ConTeXt and primetime-crop.pdf from lualatex). The
prime character looks more slanted in ConTeXt. It also almost looks like it
is cut horizontally at the bottom of the character. Also, the space between
the two x in the subscript looks a bit large to me. Is that easily tuned?

/Mikael

The ConTeXt file:
\starttext
\startTEXpage[offset=1bp]
\setupmathematics[collapsing=1]
$f_{xx}''$
\stopTEXpage
\stoptext

The LaTeX file:
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{lmodern}
\pagestyle{empty}
\begin{document}
$f_{xx}''$
\end{document}

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[-- Attachment #3: primetime-crop.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 9284 bytes --]

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Wolfgang Schuster]

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Mikael P. Sundqvist schrieb am 05.03.2020 um 20:48:
> Oh, I had not. It looks better with collapsing=1, indeed. A few neq 
> questions comes to me:
>
> Does ConTeXt not use the same prime character as in TeX/LaTeX? Or has 
> something changed in latin modern? See the attached pdf files 
> (derivatives.pdf from ConTeXt and primetime-crop.pdf from lualatex). 
> The prime character looks more slanted in ConTeXt. It also almost 
> looks like it is cut horizontally at the bottom of the character. 
> Also, the space between the two x in the subscript looks a bit large 
> to me. Is that easily tuned?

ConTeXt uses the OpenType version of the Latin Modern math font
while your LaTeX file uses the older Type1 version of the font
which uses multiple files for the different sizes. You can see this
when look into the document information which can be done
with your PDF viewer (or a command line tool like pdffonts).

Wolfgang


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Second derivative ''

[Mikael P. Sundqvist]

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On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 9:09 PM Wolfgang Schuster <
wolfgang.schuster.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mikael P. Sundqvist schrieb am 05.03.2020 um 20:48:
>
> Oh, I had not. It looks better with collapsing=1, indeed. A few neq
> questions comes to me:
>
> Does ConTeXt not use the same prime character as in TeX/LaTeX? Or has
> something changed in latin modern? See the attached pdf files
> (derivatives.pdf from ConTeXt and primetime-crop.pdf from lualatex). The
> prime character looks more slanted in ConTeXt. It also almost looks like it
> is cut horizontally at the bottom of the character. Also, the space between
> the two x in the subscript looks a bit large to me. Is that easily tuned?
>
>
> ConTeXt uses the OpenType version of the Latin Modern math font
> while your LaTeX file uses the older Type1 version of the font
> which uses multiple files for the different sizes. You can see this
> when look into the document information which can be done
> with your PDF viewer (or a command line tool like pdffonts).
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
Thanks! That was sloppy of me not to check in the pdf before sending. I
attach the correct file generated by lualatex for others. Indeed, the
primes are "cut off" horizontally, but perhaps that is a choice of design.

The question regarding spaces in the subscript remains.

/Mikael

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___________________________________________________________________________________