underbar and hyphenation

underbar and hyphenation

[Mojca Miklavec]

Hello,

is there any way to make hyphenation work when using \underbar?

Thanks,
    Mojca

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> Hello,
>
> is there any way to make hyphenation work when using \underbar?

Mojca, sorry I do not know the answer to that. But I was testing a few 
things with \underbar and now have questions of my own.

Something seem to be broken with \underbar and ||. See the output of

\underbar{stand||alone}

Also, what is difference between alternatives in underbar? All the 
three alternatives look the same to me (from the sources)

   {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=a]\underbar{alternative a}},
   {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=b]\underbar{alternative b}},
   {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=c]\underbar{alternative c}}


Aditya

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Peter Rolf]

Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>>
>> is there any way to make hyphenation work when using \underbar?
> 
> Mojca, sorry I do not know the answer to that. But I was testing a few 
> things with \underbar and now have questions of my own.
> 
> Something seem to be broken with \underbar and ||. See the output of
> 
> \underbar{stand||alone}
> 
Isn't | a special char like & (plain tex)?
What happens, if you use \textbar instead?

> Also, what is difference between alternatives in underbar? All the 
> three alternatives look the same to me (from the sources)
> 
>    {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=a]\underbar{alternative a}},
>    {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=b]\underbar{alternative b}},
>    {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=c]\underbar{alternative c}}
> 
Try "alternative" instead of "alternativevariant".

Peter

> 
> Aditya
> _______________________________________________
> ntg-context mailing list
> ntg-context@ntg.nl
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> 
> 

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Peter Rolf wrote:

> Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> is there any way to make hyphenation work when using \underbar?
>>
>> Mojca, sorry I do not know the answer to that. But I was testing a few
>> things with \underbar and now have questions of my own.
>>
>> Something seem to be broken with \underbar and ||. See the output of
>>
>> \underbar{stand||alone}
>>
> Isn't | a special char like & (plain tex)?
> What happens, if you use \textbar instead?

I want to get the special meaning of |. Actually I was just testing 
something with

\underbar{\input knuth \endgraf}

and noticed the problem.

>> Also, what is difference between alternatives in underbar? All the
>> three alternatives look the same to me (from the sources)
>>
>>    {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=a]\underbar{alternative a}},
>>    {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=b]\underbar{alternative b}},
>>    {\setupunderbar [alternativevariant=c]\underbar{alternative c}}
>>
> Try "alternative" instead of "alternativevariant".

Thanks, "alternative" works perfectly.

Hans, can you fix the typo in the example in core-fnt.tex (around line 
440).

Aditya

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

> Hello,
>
> is there any way to make hyphenation work when using \underbar?

Perhaps you can try some of the techniques in Chapter 10 of Metafun 
manual. There is no mention of hypenation, but looking at Fig 10.3 it 
seems that hypenation is taken care of. Working with a rectangular 
region should be easier, but then one needs to take care of 
pagebreaks.....

Aditya

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Mojca Miklavec]

On 7/26/06, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > is there any way to make hyphenation work when using \underbar?
>
> Perhaps you can try some of the techniques in Chapter 10 of Metafun
> manual. There is no mention of hypenation, but looking at Fig 10.3 it
> seems that hypenation is taken care of. Working with a rectangular
> region should be easier, but then one needs to take care of
> pagebreaks.....

Actually, if I'm thinking about extending \underbar to handle such
situations, then I'm ready to put some effort into fixing it (since it
might be useful in the future as well). But considering my document:
using metapost is too much overhead to underline just a couple of
sentences. (To be honest: now I switched to bold instead since I'm
running out of time anyway.)

Thanks anyway (when I come back I'll play a bit more with it again),
    Mojca

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Hans Hagen]

Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On 7/26/06, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> is there any way to make hyphenation work when using \underbar?
>>>       
>> Perhaps you can try some of the techniques in Chapter 10 of Metafun
>> manual. There is no mention of hypenation, but looking at Fig 10.3 it
>> seems that hypenation is taken care of. Working with a rectangular
>> region should be easier, but then one needs to take care of
>> pagebreaks.....
>>     
>
> Actually, if I'm thinking about extending \underbar to handle such
> situations, then I'm ready to put some effort into fixing it (since it
> might be useful in the future as well). But considering my document:
> using metapost is too much overhead to underline just a couple of
> sentences. (To be honest: now I switched to bold instead since I'm
> running out of time anyway.)
>   
rather tricky i.e. kind of impossible to do 

\underbars (plural) at least split at word boundaries 

anyhow, underbar is from the typewriter time and just a poor mans emphasis thing 

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Jano Kula]

Hans Hagen wrote:

> anyhow, underbar is from the typewriter time and just a poor mans emphasis thing 
> 

Not always. A year ago a graphic designer used it a quiet creative way 
in the book of interviews. All the questions or persons were underlined, 
often hyphenated. It was an experiment and it worked. By the way, some 
of the caption and figure alingment Mojca asked for was used there also. 
I've put few sample pages here (done in LaTeX):

http://web.iol.cz/kula/sample.pdf (1,5MB).

And in Wolfgang Weingart: My Way to Typography (2000) underlined text 
are used everywhere. To much to my taste.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/390704486X?v=glance

So not for emphasis but as a graphic element it is -- and will be -- used.

Jano

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Hans Hagen]

Jano Kula wrote:
> Hans Hagen wrote:
>
>   
>> anyhow, underbar is from the typewriter time and just a poor mans emphasis thing 
>>
>>     
>
> Not always. A year ago a graphic designer used it a quiet creative way 
> in the book of interviews. All the questions or persons were underlined, 
> often hyphenated. It was an experiment and it worked. By the way, some 
> of the caption and figure alingment Mojca asked for was used there also. 
> I've put few sample pages here (done in LaTeX):
>
> http://web.iol.cz/kula/sample.pdf (1,5MB).
>
> And in Wolfgang Weingart: My Way to Typography (2000) underlined text 
> are used everywhere. To much to my taste.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/390704486X?v=glance
>
> So not for emphasis but as a graphic element it is -- and will be -- used.
>   
if one works on a grid, one can use the textbackground mechanism to provide underlined text honoring hyphenation (there is probably an example of that somewhere) 

maybe there's also some pdf primitive, in which case one can use the context feature mechanism

Hans 


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi,

Be warned, this entire reply does not answer any questions ;-)

Jano Kula wrote:
> 
> Not always. A year ago a graphic designer used it a quiet creative way 
> in the book of interviews. All the questions or persons were underlined, 
> often hyphenated. It was an experiment and it worked. By the way, some 
> of the caption and figure alingment Mojca asked for was used there also. 
> I've put few sample pages here (done in LaTeX):
> 
> http://web.iol.cz/kula/sample.pdf (1,5MB).

Perhaps I am way too old-fashioned, but that looks rather ugly to me.

> So not for emphasis but as a graphic element it is -- and will be -- used.

IMO,

   graphic element == emphasis

Backgrounds, colorization, larger or different typeface, indentation,
additional vertical space, they are all tools to draw extra attention
to  particular bits of the text.


Greetings,
Taco

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Jano Kula]

Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Be warned, this entire reply does not answer any questions ;-)

OK

> Jano Kula wrote:
>> Not always. A year ago a graphic designer used it a quiet creative way 
>> in the book of interviews. All the questions or persons were underlined, 
>> often hyphenated. It was an experiment and it worked. By the way, some 
>> of the caption and figure alingment Mojca asked for was used there also. 
>> I've put few sample pages here (done in LaTeX):
>>
>> http://web.iol.cz/kula/sample.pdf (1,5MB).
> 
> Perhaps I am way too old-fashioned, but that looks rather ugly to me.

Sure you are ;) Modern designs are modern designs. But don't worry you 
are not the only one.

We have spent many hours, did many experiments and I was afraid of using 
it also. The result was a pragmatic solution when all the possibilities 
mentioned below were not usable in the book with many different 
situations we needed to handle.

I was very suprised when the designer (experienced, respected and well 
aware of typography history and present) came up with this solution. I 
can't say I like it, but in print it wasn't that ugly as I was expecting.

What I liked more than this solution was the courage to breake the rules 
we are all aware of (btw, like Godard used to do in his films; the book 
is a collection of interviews with him).

>> So not for emphasis but as a graphic element it is -- and will be -- used.
> 
> IMO,
> 
>    graphic element == emphasis

Imagine the form with prescribed empty lines (lines, dots, dashes) and 
the pieces of predifined text on them in the schoolbook.

> Backgrounds, colorization, larger or different typeface, indentation,
> additional vertical space, they are all tools to draw extra attention
> to  particular bits of the text.

Hence, whether we like it or not, we must be able to use underlining.

Greetings,

Jano

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Hans Hagen]

Jano Kula wrote:
>
> Imagine the form with prescribed empty lines (lines, dots, dashes) and 
> the pieces of predifined text on them in the schoolbook.
>   
that's when we use the textbackgrounds (which then draw lines insteadof fills) 

Hans 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: underbar and hyphenation

[Jano Kula]

Hans Hagen wrote:
> Jano Kula wrote:
>> Imagine the form with prescribed empty lines (lines, dots, dashes) and 
>> the pieces of predifined text on them in the schoolbook.
>>   
> that's when we use the textbackgrounds (which then draw lines insteadof fills) 

Thanks, Hans, for both tips, I'll try them.

Jano