Re: body text invades space for notes

[Jean-Pierre Delange <adeimantos@free.fr>]

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Dear Pablo,

It seems that we never should say "never" about things which appear all 
over the real world. I just go back to a previous assertion you made here.

I agree with you about footnotes which should be placed on the same page 
(I quote) :

 >    Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user expects that 
these
 >     notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the next 
page. I
 >     mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next page from
 >     the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in any book
 >     read or paged through.)

But, I am afraid to inform you that it is a kind of way of French 
printing, especially in Philosophy publishers (which are not known to be 
devoted to publish beautiful/strictly edited/... books).

As a kind of sample, see the French translation of Nichomachean Ethics 
by Jean Tricot (1983 edition), Jean Vrin publisher, pages 201, 225-226, 
245-246, etc.  One can notice an effort to reduce the body text in order 
to let some space to footnotes. But this effort flaws on several pages ...

A way had have been chosen by publishers : "don't abuse about footnotes 
!", which is clearly impossible within academic books in Humanities ...

JP


Le 04/03/2020 à 12:07, Philipp A. a écrit :
> Hi Pablo,
>
> Thank you for the help!
> I’m not using lists on that page … what I do use is a figure with 
> location=left, which is probably the culprit, as it ends up pretty 
> close to the footnote.
> Is there any interest in fixing this longstanding bug? It’s the only 
> feature that’s just consistently broken for me …
>
> Best, Phil
>
> Am Di., 25. Feb. 2020 um 22:15 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez 
> <oinos@gmx.es <mailto:oinos@gmx.es>>:
>
>     On 2/18/20 11:17 AM, Philipp A. wrote:
>     > For me it’s even worse (in mkiv), a paragraph of body text
>     completely
>     > overlaps my footnote.
>     >
>     > Where are the bottom notes placed? In the footer? Or how does it
>     work?
>     > How to debug it?
>
>     Hi Philipp,
>
>     I’m afraid that this misbehaviour is caused by the use of lists in the
>     same page.
>
>     Even not using lists, the space before seems not to be honored when
>     using \setupnote[footnote].
>
>     Note handling seems to have been improved in both LMTX and MkIV. A
>     side-effect of this new handling is the random clash between body and
>     notes texts when using lists in the same page.
>
>     BTW, foonotes cannot be placed in the footer.
>
>         \showframe\showgrid
>         \setuppapersize[A9]
>         \starttext
>         \dorecurse{3}{%
>             text\footnote{note}\\}
>         \stoptext
>
>     Sorry, but I’m afraid that I don’t know any way of debugging it.
>
>     Pablo
>
>
>     > Am Sa., 14. Dez. 2019 um 19:41 Uhr schrieb Pablo Rodriguez:
>     >
>     >     Dear list,
>     >
>     >     I’m afraid to admit that ConTeXt notes are increasily
>     problematic for
>     >     me. I don’t think this is special to me and I hope we can
>     discuss the
>     >     general issue.
>     >
>     >     Bottom notes are somewhat tricky in ConTeXt. The user
>     expects that these
>     >     notes (either footnotes, or linenotes) aren’t moved to the
>     next page. I
>     >     mean, no reader expects to find a full footnote in the next
>     page from
>     >     the one that calls it. (At least, I have never seen that in
>     any book
>     >     read or paged through.)
>     >
>     >     There may be good reasons for that, but ConTeXt doesn’t
>     enable this by
>     >     default. Both options "split=verystrict" and "scope=text"
>     have to be
>     >     used in "\setupnote".
>     >
>     >     This translated in wrong space before notes when paragraph
>     form was
>     >     used. I was very interested to use these (line)notes for
>     critical
>     >     editions, but sometimes the text run into the notes. I’m
>     afraid that
>     >     left linenotes extremely problematic to be used.
>     >
>     >     With the arrival of LMTX, space before footnotes is more
>     problematic
>     >     than before. No paragraph notes, see the attached sample
>     (wrong-6.png).
>     >     In other cases, ConTeXt seems to ignore totally that the
>     page bottom
>     >     contains footnotes.
>     >
>     >     I cannot provide minimal samples. Consider that if it were
>     so easy to
>     >     reproduce, problably the issue would have been gone long ago.
>     >
>     >     Even when one avoids the problematic bottom partition (which
>     I did in
>     >     that case by removing the "before" option from
>     "\setupnote[footnote]"),
>     >     there is clearly an issue with the footnote having its space
>     before
>     >     remaining blank from the body text (wrong-2.png).
>     >
>     >     My first question is why the bottom notes have problems to
>     preserve the
>     >     space before them (and simultaneously remain in the same
>     page where they
>     >     come from). This applies also for paragraph notes.
>     >
>     >     My second question is what can be improved to achieve what
>     may be
>     >     considered as a basic typographic feature.
>     >
>     >     Sorry for not providing more than output samples. Bear with
>     me. I may
>     >     not be an expert user, but I think I’m a frequent ConTeXt
>     user. And I
>     >     don’t think it is totally wrong to consider this a basic
>     feature that
>     >     needs to be improved.
>     >
>     >     Many thanks for your help in advance,
>     >
>     >     Pablo
>
>
>
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