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From: Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
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Subject: Re: OT world history: other measuring systems?
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To: Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context <ntg-context@ntg.nl>
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As you know, there were very variable measurement systems in Europe 
after the fall of the Roman Empire, depending on the region within the 
same country. It is difficult to say precisely why political unity, when 
there was one in a given country, did not make it possible to 
systematize the use of the same standard of measurement throughout the 
country, because it is quite astonishing to see that the cubit, the 
foot, the pound etc. vary from one region to another during the medieval 
period. The answer to this question on the variability and versatility 
of measures is undoubtedly due to the fact that the birth of modern 
nations has been accompanied by the emergence of a rational State which 
has increasingly taken the place of a rational administration (legal) of 
social relationship. The French Revolution of 1789 carried out the 
efforts at rationalization that we had seen develop with the appearance 
of a strong State from the end of the wars of religion and the reign of 
Louis XIV in France: the metric system (based on a segment of the 
Greenwich meridian) in base 10, makes it possible to obtain measurements 
of surfaces, distances and volumes which are the same everywhere and 
which do not vary according to whether one is in Normandy, Lorraine or 
Provence. For those interested in the point Didot (the printing point 
under the French monarchy), its value was 1/72 of a foot (of the king's 
foot)... which king's foot could not be a foot of English king, nor a 
symbolic value as guinea was !

see here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France
and here : 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France_before_the_French_Revolution

Le 25/01/2022 à 20:28, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context a écrit :
> Am 25.01.22 um 18:27 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote:
>>> why didn’t "we" stick to
>>> the Roman system?
>>
>> All you need to do is look at the definitions of roman imperial units 
>> to understand why we didn't stick to that:
>>
>> An inch was the width of the base of the thumb, a foot, well length 
>> of a foot, a fathom was the width of outstretched arms, yard was the 
>> length of the man's belt, mile was 1000 paces of marching roman 
>> soldiers, and so on.
>
> Ah, of course. So “normalization” to some ruler’s shoe size was 
> already progress.
>
>> In India, from what I am aware, the pre-imperial units of 
>> measurements had similar origins as imperial. Length was based on 
>> width of fingers, cubit (also used in other civilizations of the 
>> time), person-height and so on. As with the imperial units, these 
>> definitions were not uniform and went through a uniformization 
>> process in the middle ages. However, India moved to imperial units 
>> with colonization, and adopted metric system after Independence.
>>
>> Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area, are 
>> still in use as they are effectively codified in the land records. 
>
> Interesting.
>
>> Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient and medieval systems in India.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement
>>
>> But it got more complicated than that (particularly for time). See, 
>> for example:
>> https://sites.google.com/site/mathematicsmiscellany/time-measurement-in-ancient-india 
>>
>
> Oh, that is nice!
>
>> There is also this fascinating book which covers the non-European 
>> history of mathematics (a lot of which in ancient times was to do 
>> with units and measurements but more importantly, calculations):
>> https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691135267/the-crest-of-the-peacock 
>>
>
> Yes, that’s probably worth reading.
>
> Thank you!
> Hraban
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry 
> to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>

-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients&Moderns
Professeur Agrégé de Philosophie (HC)

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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <div class="J0lOec"><span class="VIiyi" lang="en"><span
          class="JLqJ4b" data-language-for-alternatives="en"
          data-language-to-translate-into="fr" data-phrase-index="0"
          data-number-of-phrases="1"><span>As you know, there were very
            variable measurement systems in Europe after the fall of the
            Roman Empire, depending on the region within the same
            country. It is difficult to say precisely why political
            unity, when there was one in a given country, did not make
            it possible to systematize the use of the same standard of
            measurement throughout the country, because it is quite
            astonishing to see that the cubit, the foot, the pound etc.
            vary from one region to another during the medieval period.
            The answer to this question on the variability and
            versatility of measures is undoubtedly due to the fact that
            the birth of modern nations has been accompanied by the
            emergence of a rational State which has increasingly taken
            the place of a rational administration (legal) of social
            relationship. The French Revolution of 1789 carried out the
            efforts at rationalization that we had seen develop with the
            appearance of a strong State from the end of the wars of
            religion and the reign of Louis XIV in France: the metric
            system (based on a segment of the Greenwich meridian) in
            base 10, makes it possible to obtain measurements of
            surfaces, distances and volumes which are the same
            everywhere and which do not vary according to whether one is
            in Normandy, Lorraine or Provence. For those interested in
            the point Didot (the printing point under the French
            monarchy), its value was 1/72 of a foot (of the king's
            foot)... which king's foot could not be a foot of English
            king, nor a symbolic value as guinea was !</span></span></span>
      <span class="zEswK"></span></div>
    <div class="BdDRKe">
      <div class="aJIq1d DSmisd" data-language-code="en"
        data-language-name="Anglais" data-text="As you know, there were
        very variable measurement systems in Europe after the fall of
        the Roman Empire, depending on the region within the same
        country. It is difficult to say precisely why political unity,
        when there was one in a given country, did not make it possible
        to systematize the use of the same standard of measurement
        throughout the country, because it is quite astonishing to see
        that the cubit, the foot, the pound etc. vary from one region to
        another during the medieval period. The answer to this question
        on the variability and versatility of measures is undoubtedly
        due to the fact that the birth of modern nations has been
        accompanied by the emergence of a rational State which has
        increasingly taken the place of a rational administration.
        (legal) of social relations. The French Revolution of 1789
        carried out the efforts at rationalization that we had seen
        develop with the appearance of a strong State from the end of
        the wars of religion and the reign of Louis XIV in France: the
        metric system (based on a segment of the Greenwich meridian) in
        base 10, makes it possible to obtain measurements of surfaces,
        distances and volumes which are the same everywhere and which do
        not vary according to whether one is in Normandy, Lorraine or
        Provence. For those interested in the point Didot (the printing
        point under the French monarchy), its value was 1/72 of a foot
        (of the king's foot)... which king's foot could not be a foot of
        English king!" data-crosslingual-hint="" data-location="2"
        data-enable-toggle-playback-speed="true">
        <div data-show-delay-ms="250" data-append-to-body="true"
          data-propagate-tooltip-mouseover-events="true"
          data-anchor-corner="bottom-left"
          data-enable-skip-handler="false" data-popup-corner="top-left">
          <div><span></span></div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </div>
    <div><span><br>
      </span></div>
    <div><span>see here :
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France</a></span></div>
    <div><span>and here :
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France_before_the_French_Revolution">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_measurement_in_France_before_the_French_Revolution</a><br>
      </span></div>
    <div><span><br>
      </span></div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 25/01/2022 à 20:28, Henning Hraban
      Ramm via ntg-context a écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:a4997631-7b29-1133-e9f3-edcbef5ba2ca@fiee.net">Am
      25.01.22 um 18:27 schrieb Aditya Mahajan:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">On Tue, 25 Jan 2022, Henning Hraban Ramm
        via ntg-context wrote:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">why didn’t "we" stick to
          <br>
          the Roman system?
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        All you need to do is look at the definitions of roman imperial
        units to understand why we didn't stick to that:
        <br>
        <br>
        An inch was the width of the base of the thumb, a foot, well
        length of a foot, a fathom was the width of outstretched arms,
        yard was the length of the man's belt, mile was 1000 paces of
        marching roman soldiers, and so on.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Ah, of course. So “normalization” to some ruler’s shoe size was
      already progress.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">In India, from what I am aware, the
        pre-imperial units of measurements had similar origins as
        imperial. Length was based on width of fingers, cubit (also used
        in other civilizations of the time), person-height and so on. As
        with the imperial units, these definitions were not uniform and
        went through a uniformization process in the middle ages.
        However, India moved to imperial units with colonization, and
        adopted metric system after Independence.
        <br>
        <br>
        Some of the units, particularly for measurement of land area,
        are still in use as they are effectively codified in the land
        records. </blockquote>
      <br>
      Interesting.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Wikipedia has some summary of the ancient
        and medieval systems in India.
        <br>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_units_of_measurement</a>
        <br>
        <br>
        But it got more complicated than that (particularly for time).
        See, for example:
        <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sites.google.com/site/mathematicsmiscellany/time-measurement-in-ancient-india">https://sites.google.com/site/mathematicsmiscellany/time-measurement-in-ancient-india</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Oh, that is nice!
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">There is also this fascinating book which
        covers the non-European history of mathematics (a lot of which
        in ancient times was to do with units and measurements but more
        importantly, calculations):
        <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691135267/the-crest-of-the-peacock">https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691135267/the-crest-of-the-peacock</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Yes, that’s probably worth reading.
      <br>
      <br>
      Thank you!
      <br>
      Hraban
      <br>
___________________________________________________________________________________
      <br>
      If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
      entry to the Wiki!
      <br>
      <br>
      maillist : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl">ntg-context@ntg.nl</a> /
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context">http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context</a>
      <br>
      webpage  : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.pragma-ade.nl">http://www.pragma-ade.nl</a> / <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://context.aanhet.net">http://context.aanhet.net</a>
      <br>
      archive  : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/">https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/</a>
      <br>
      wiki     : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://contextgarden.net">http://contextgarden.net</a>
      <br>
___________________________________________________________________________________
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients&amp;Moderns
Professeur Agrégé de Philosophie (HC)</pre>
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