3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Michail Vidiassov]

Dear Hans, Mojca and All,

a draft for an analog of LaTeX movie15 package for including Adobe Reader
compatible 3d models into PDF files is at

http://www.iaas.msu.ru/tmp/movie15context.tgz .

Almost no docs/comments inside, but questions are of course welcome.

You'd better take a brief look at part 5.2 of movie15 docs

http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/movie15/doc/movie15.pdf

and part 13.6 of ISO/Adobe PDF spec

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/acrobat/pdfs/PDF32000_2008.pdf

to understand what are the settings.

Since I lack understanding of ConTeXt/luatex combo and have to pass data
for dictionaries containing other dictionaries to 3D model embedder I had
to abuse two existing parameters, "control" and "display" and rely on sane
lua code being put there.
And even the limited parameter correctness checks do not report problems,
they just silently fail to execute.

One more option to deal with 3D models is not to embed them as annotations
in the main PDF file, but to make a PDF with only 3D model in it and
attach it to the main PDF, linking to a clickable 2D image (like
attachfile2 LaTeX package). Donno if that functionality is in working
condition now and how to use it.

          Sincerely, Michail


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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[luigi scarso]

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On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Michail Vidiassov <master@iaas.msu.ru>wrote:

> Dear Hans, Mojca and All,
>
> a draft for an analog of LaTeX movie15 package for including Adobe Reader
> compatible 3d models into PDF files is at
>
> http://www.iaas.msu.ru/tmp/movie15context.tgz .
>
> Almost no docs/comments inside, but questions are of course welcome.
>
> You'd better take a brief look at part 5.2 of movie15 docs
>
>
> http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/movie15/doc/movie15.pdf
>
> and part 13.6 of ISO/Adobe PDF spec
>
> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/acrobat/pdfs/PDF32000_2008.pdf
>
> to understand what are the settings.
>
> Since I lack understanding of ConTeXt/luatex combo and have to pass data
> for dictionaries containing other dictionaries to 3D model embedder I had
> to abuse two existing parameters, "control" and "display" and rely on sane
> lua code being put there.
> And even the limited parameter correctness checks do not report problems,
> they just silently fail to execute.
>
> One more option to deal with 3D models is not to embed them as annotations
> in the main PDF file, but to make a PDF with only 3D model in it and
> attach it to the main PDF, linking to a clickable 2D image (like
> attachfile2 LaTeX package). Donno if that functionality is in working
> condition now and how to use it.
>
>          Sincerely, Michail
>
hi michael
some time ago Renaud Aubin discover
http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/

cfr
Renaud Aubin
2008-11-22 19:132008-11-22 18:13 +100UTC
Re: [NTG-context] embedding 3d pdf


-- 
luigi

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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Michail Vidiassov]

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Dear Luigi,

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, luigi scarso wrote:

>       a draft for an analog of LaTeX movie15 package for including Adobe Reader
>       compatible 3d models into PDF files is at
> 
> hi michael
> some time ago Renaud Aubin discover
> http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/
> 2008-11-22 19:132008-11-22 18:13 +100UTC
> Re: [NTG-context] embedding 3d pdf

Sorry, I fail to understand your comment.

On one hand, MeshLab can convert from other 3D formats to U3D (older Adobe 
format) and embed U3D into PDF files via LaTeX with movie15 package, thus
it may be useful in 3D PDF workflow in general, on the other hand it does 
not have anything to do with ConTeXt.

As to the module Renaud Aubin wrote to support 3D annotations - it is 
mkii thing, for example it uses "definefileinsertion" that did not find 
its way into mkiv IMHO.

While MeshLab may be of great use if you have to convert old data or 
process output from some existing tool, in cases when you make your model 
from scratch by hand or create 3D model file in your own program Asymptote 
may be a better choice since it supports newer PRC 3D format, that is much 
richer in features and has better prospects when it comes to support and 
development by Adobe. On the minus side Asymptote is under active 
development and some of its advantages are not there yet - but so is ConTeXt.


         Sincerely,, Michail

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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[luigi scarso]

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On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Michail Vidiassov <master@iaas.msu.ru>wrote:

> Dear Luigi,
>
> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>       a draft for an analog of LaTeX movie15 package for including Adobe
>> Reader
>>      compatible 3d models into PDF files is at
>>
>> hi michael
>> some time ago Renaud Aubin discover
>> http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/
>> 2008-11-22 19:132008-11-22 18:13 +100UTC
>> Re: [NTG-context] embedding 3d pdf
>>
>
> Sorry, I fail to understand your comment.
>
ah, it's not a comment at all.
Just to keep 3d things under the same subject

>
> On one hand, MeshLab can convert from other 3D formats to U3D (older Adobe
> format) and embed U3D into PDF files via LaTeX with movie15 package, thus
> it may be useful in 3D PDF workflow in general, on the other hand it does
> not have anything to do with ConTeXt.
>


>
>
> While MeshLab may be of great use if you have to convert old data or
> process output from some existing tool, in cases when you make your model
> from scratch by hand or create 3D model file in your own program Asymptote
> may be a better choice since it supports newer PRC 3D format, that is much
> richer in features and has better prospects when it comes to support and
> development by Adobe. On the minus side Asymptote is under active
> development and some of its advantages are not there yet - but so is
> ConTeXt.
>
yes just now with blender
http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/features/
and meshlib
one can (in theory) embed 3d models
using
\executesystemcommand
and your macros.
BTW
I'm not aware of any opensource tools (apart asymptote)
that are PRC 3D-able: do you ?


>
>
>        Sincerely,, Michail
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
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>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>


-- 
luigi

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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Renaud Aubin]

Michail Vidiassov a écrit :
> While MeshLab may be of great use if you have to convert old data or 
> process output from some existing tool, in cases when you make your 
> model from scratch by hand or create 3D model file in your own program 
> Asymptote may be a better choice since it supports newer PRC 3D 
> format, that is much richer in features and has better prospects when 
> it comes to support and development by Adobe. On the minus side 
> Asymptote is under active development and some of its advantages are 
> not there yet - but so is ConTeXt.
Ouch, another new 3D format! This will never end. I bet no valuable Open 
Source modeler (i.e. blender) support this one. The fact that asy 
supports PRC is good but I have no illusion about the conclusion of the 
3d formats' war (just an endless pain for developpers)...

Renaud
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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Michail Vidiassov]

Dear Renaud,

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Renaud Aubin wrote:

>> Asymptote may be a better choice since it supports newer PRC 3D 
>> format, that is much richer in features and has better prospects when 
>> it comes to support and development by Adobe.
> Ouch, another new 3D format! This will never end. I bet no valuable Open 
> Source modeler (i.e. blender) support this one. The fact that asy 
> supports PRC is good but I have no illusion about the conclusion of the 
> 3d formats' war (just an endless pain for developpers)...

IMHO the major difference is that Adobe Reader is a 3D viewer with quite a 
userbase and lots of support resources behind. While the failure of 3D 
community to accept U3D as 3D JPEG is deplorable, PRC prospects in Adobe 
seem bright - they have bought the format together with the authors, make 
noises about submitting it to ISO, released documentation...

>From my experience of work with U3D, writing an exporter turned out to be 
not that difficult, since for U3D there is VRML-like intermediate text 
format, but figuring out what are the limitations of Adobe viewer takes a 
lot of time.

I do not remember if that applies to Blender, but googling showed me that
in 2006-2007 people asked questions in lists/forums of 3D software 
pieces about 3D PDF output, but neither users were interested, nor 
developers excited.

        Sincrely, Michail

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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[luigi scarso]

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On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Renaud Aubin <aubin@nibua-r.org> wrote:

> Michail Vidiassov a écrit :
>
>> While MeshLab may be of great use if you have to convert old data or
>> process output from some existing tool, in cases when you make your model
>> from scratch by hand or create 3D model file in your own program Asymptote
>> may be a better choice since it supports newer PRC 3D format, that is much
>> richer in features and has better prospects when it comes to support and
>> development by Adobe. On the minus side Asymptote is under active
>> development and some of its advantages are not there yet - but so is
>> ConTeXt.
>>
> Ouch, another new 3D format! This will never end. I bet no valuable Open
> Source modeler (i.e. blender) support this one. The fact that asy supports
> PRC is good but I have no illusion about the conclusion of the 3d formats'
> war (just an endless pain for developpers)...
>
Asymptote has a prc dir
 asymptote-1.75/prc
maybe can be a lib too..
-- 
luigi

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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Hans Hagen]

Michail Vidiassov wrote:
> Dear Hans, Mojca and All,
> 
> a draft for an analog of LaTeX movie15 package for including Adobe Reader
> compatible 3d models into PDF files is at

i'll have a look at it next week; the interface needs some more thinking 
from my side; in principle we should not use externalfigure here but the 
rendering mechanism

i'll see if i can provide some more helpers in the backend module (i 
have to find back some pdf constructor functions)

it's anyway a good starting point; thanks

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Michail Vidiassov]

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Dear Luigi,

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, luigi scarso wrote:

>             Asymptote may be a better choice since it supports newer PRC 3D format

> Ouch, another new 3D format! This will never end. I bet no valuable Open Source modeler (i.e. blender) support this one. The fact that asy
> supports PRC is good but I have no illusion about the conclusion of the 3d formats' war (just an endless pain for developpers)...
> 
> Asymptote has a prc dir
>  asymptote-1.75/prc
> maybe can be a lib too..

To say the truth Adobe Acrobat SDK has PRC API in it, but it is 
Windows-only, goes for big-$$$ and for that is "Not licensed to run in a 
batch or server mode".

As to the role of Adobe in 3D formats war - it reminds me of a quote 
attributed to a North Vietnamese general: "You Americans have fast 
choppers and jeeps, so you can rapidly move troops to the point of 
engagemment. But we are _already_ there!". The installed base of Adobe 
Readers may be a new factor in that endless Tweedle D.* free-for-all ;)

         Sincerely, Michail




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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[luigi scarso]

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On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 6:07 AM, Michail Vidiassov <master@iaas.msu.ru>wrote:

> Dear Luigi,
>
> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>             Asymptote may be a better choice since it supports newer PRC 3D
>> format
>>
>
>  Ouch, another new 3D format! This will never end. I bet no valuable Open
>> Source modeler (i.e. blender) support this one. The fact that asy
>> supports PRC is good but I have no illusion about the conclusion of the 3d
>> formats' war (just an endless pain for developpers)...
>>
>> Asymptote has a prc dir
>>  asymptote-1.75/prc
>> maybe can be a lib too..
>>
>

>
> To say the truth Adobe Acrobat SDK has PRC API in it, but it is
> Windows-only, goes for big-$$$ and for that is "Not licensed to run in a
> batch or server mode".
>
simple hacks to Makefiles in prc dir of Asymptote permit
to compile
test and PRCTools/makePRC



> As to the role of Adobe in 3D formats war - it reminds me of a quote
> attributed to a North Vietnamese general: "You Americans have fast choppers
> and jeeps, so you can rapidly move troops to the point of engagemment. But
> we are _already_ there!". The installed base of Adobe Readers may be a new
> factor in that endless Tweedle D.* free-for-all ;)
>
on linux
Acrobat 9 SDK/Version
1/InterAppCommunicationSupport/CSamples/ReadPdfPrcVC/SampleFile/mower_carb.pdf
crash acroread9
but not acroread8.....

-- 
luigi

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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Michail Vidiassov]

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Dear Hans,

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Hans Hagen wrote:

>> a draft for an analog of LaTeX movie15 package for including Adobe Reader
>> compatible 3d models into PDF files is at
>
> i'll have a look at it next week; the interface needs some more thinking from 
> my side; in principle we should not use externalfigure here but the rendering 
> mechanism

BTW, the mechanism ConTeXt uses to include movies (it served me as a 
starting point) is described in part "13.4 Movies" of PDF 32000-1:2008 
ISO/Adobe spec, but preceded there with the following note:
  The features described in this sub-clause are obsolescent and their use
  is no longer recommended.
  They are superseded by the general multimedia framework described in
  13.2, “Multimedia.”

Thus even more thinking may be desirable...

           Sincerely, Michail

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Re: 3D PDF support (AKA asymptote support)

[Hans Hagen]

Michail Vidiassov wrote:
> Dear Hans,
> 
> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Hans Hagen wrote:
> 
>>> a draft for an analog of LaTeX movie15 package for including Adobe 
>>> Reader
>>> compatible 3d models into PDF files is at
>>
>> i'll have a look at it next week; the interface needs some more 
>> thinking from my side; in principle we should not use externalfigure 
>> here but the rendering mechanism
> 
> BTW, the mechanism ConTeXt uses to include movies (it served me as a 
> starting point) is described in part "13.4 Movies" of PDF 32000-1:2008 
> ISO/Adobe spec, but preceded there with the following note:
>  The features described in this sub-clause are obsolescent and their use
>  is no longer recommended.
>  They are superseded by the general multimedia framework described in
>  13.2, ???Multimedia.???
> 
> Thus even more thinking may be desirable...

well, the multimedia support has been there already for a while in 
context (not documented because when i played with it those parts of 
acrobat reader were not that stable yet) ... (x-res-50 uses some of it)
and it's for this reason that the code sits in cont-new.tex


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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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