Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[James Fisher]

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Hi all.


I am trying to understand the terminology for the \definelayout and
\setuplayout commands.
Unfortunately the documentation at
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layoutdoesn't correspond to the actual
output I get.
Nor does the 'documentation' at http://getfo.org/context_xml/page3.html ,
which the first page recommends.
More, the two pages seem pretty contradictory.

Consider my situation: I'm trying to set up an A4 page with the following
margins (I use the term margin to mean the space from the edge of the
physical paper to the edge of the body text area):

top: 2.97cm
bottom: 2.97cm
left: 2.1cm
right: 2.1cm

For the moment, I don't care at all about header and footer space, nor notes
in the margins; I'm just trying to get the above margins.
However, with all conceivable combinations of commands at both of those
pages, I've been unable to set anything like this up.

Based on the getfo.org page, I should be able to set up these left and right
margins with:

backspace=2.1cm,
cutspace=2.1cm

But, looking at the result, and also with using \showlayout (which for some
reason, AFAICS, generates four identical pages at the beginning of the
document), this quite obviously doesn't do what getfo.org claims.

I have also tried setting everything to 0cm with the exception of any random
one of the measurements that go into making a margin, which I would set to
2.1cm.  No avail here, either.

Can someone give me the configuration I would need for the above required
margins?  Even better, can someone give me the definitive definitions of all
the terms used in http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layout, algebraically rather
than as ambiguous tables of "Remarks"?  This would help a bunch.


Many thanks,


James Fisher

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[Hans Hagen]

On 25-2-2010 5:39, James Fisher wrote:
> Hi all.
>
>
> I am trying to understand the terminology for the \definelayout and
> \setuplayout commands.
> Unfortunately the documentation at
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layoutdoesn't correspond to the actual
> output I get.
> Nor does the 'documentation' at http://getfo.org/context_xml/page3.html ,
> which the first page recommends.
> More, the two pages seem pretty contradictory.
>
> Consider my situation: I'm trying to set up an A4 page with the following
> margins (I use the term margin to mean the space from the edge of the
> physical paper to the edge of the body text area):
>
> top: 2.97cm
> bottom: 2.97cm
> left: 2.1cm
> right: 2.1cm
>
> For the moment, I don't care at all about header and footer space, nor notes
> in the margins; I'm just trying to get the above margins.
> However, with all conceivable combinations of commands at both of those
> pages, I've been unable to set anything like this up.
>
> Based on the getfo.org page, I should be able to set up these left and right
> margins with:

\setuplayout
  [backspace=2.1cm,
   cutspace=2.1cm,
   width=middle,
   topspace=2.97cm,
   bottomspace=2.97cm,
   height=middle]

\showframe

\starttext

\input tufte

\stoptext


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[R. Bastian]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:23:04 +0100
Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> scribit:

> On 25-2-2010 5:39, James Fisher wrote:
> > Hi all.
> >
> >
> > I am trying to understand the terminology for the \definelayout and
> > \setuplayout commands.
> > Unfortunately the documentation at
> > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layoutdoesn't correspond to the actual
> > output I get.
> > Nor does the 'documentation' at http://getfo.org/context_xml/page3.html ,
> > which the first page recommends.
> > More, the two pages seem pretty contradictory.
> >
> > Consider my situation: I'm trying to set up an A4 page with the following
> > margins (I use the term margin to mean the space from the edge of the
> > physical paper to the edge of the body text area):
> >
> > top: 2.97cm
> > bottom: 2.97cm
> > left: 2.1cm
> > right: 2.1cm
> >
> > For the moment, I don't care at all about header and footer space, nor notes
> > in the margins; I'm just trying to get the above margins.
> > However, with all conceivable combinations of commands at both of those
> > pages, I've been unable to set anything like this up.
> >
> > Based on the getfo.org page, I should be able to set up these left and right
> > margins with:
> 
> \setuplayout
>   [backspace=2.1cm,
>    cutspace=2.1cm,
>    width=middle,
>    topspace=2.97cm,
>    bottomspace=2.97cm,
>    height=middle]
> 
> \showframe
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \input tufte
> 

\showlayout 

> \stoptext
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                            Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>                Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>       tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                               | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> 


-- 
René Bastian
www.pythoneon.org
www.musiques-rb.org


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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[James Fisher]

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Hi Hans,


Thanks for the reply -- and sorry for the rather grumpy way in which I posed
the question.  The problem for me was this mysterious "width=middle",
"height=middle" -- this is fairly undocumented at
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layout .  There is a mention of
"width=middle", but it's just followed by some code, most of which seems to
be irrelevant ("if cutspace == 0pt then cutspace = backspace; end"), and
there is no mention of "height=middle".  I would be more than willing to
document this myself, but what is it that "width=middle" actually *does*?
And what does "middle" actually *mean* -- the middle of *what*?


James

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 25-2-2010 5:39, James Fisher wrote:
>
>> Hi all.
>>
>>
>> I am trying to understand the terminology for the \definelayout and
>> \setuplayout commands.
>> Unfortunately the documentation at
>> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layoutdoesn't<http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layoutdoesn%27t>correspond to the actual
>>
>> output I get.
>> Nor does the 'documentation' at http://getfo.org/context_xml/page3.html ,
>> which the first page recommends.
>> More, the two pages seem pretty contradictory.
>>
>> Consider my situation: I'm trying to set up an A4 page with the following
>> margins (I use the term margin to mean the space from the edge of the
>> physical paper to the edge of the body text area):
>>
>> top: 2.97cm
>> bottom: 2.97cm
>> left: 2.1cm
>> right: 2.1cm
>>
>> For the moment, I don't care at all about header and footer space, nor
>> notes
>> in the margins; I'm just trying to get the above margins.
>> However, with all conceivable combinations of commands at both of those
>> pages, I've been unable to set anything like this up.
>>
>> Based on the getfo.org page, I should be able to set up these left and
>> right
>> margins with:
>>
>
> \setuplayout
>  [backspace=2.1cm,
>  cutspace=2.1cm,
>  width=middle,
>  topspace=2.97cm,
>  bottomspace=2.97cm,
>  height=middle]
>
> \showframe
>
> \starttext
>
> \input tufte
>
> \stoptext
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:17 PM, James Fisher <jameshfisher@gmail.com> wrote:

> document this myself, but what is it that "width=middle" actually *does*?
I suppose
    if cutspace == 0pt then
       cutspace = backspace
    end
    makeupwidth =  paperwidth- backspace -cutspace
(as wiki says, from page-lay.mkiv, 2009-11-17 - 23:59)

(btw I'm the author of the irrelevant code )
-- 
luigi
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[Hans Hagen]

On 25-2-2010 21:17, James Fisher wrote:
> Hi Hans,
>
>
> Thanks for the reply -- and sorry for the rather grumpy way in which I posed
> the question.  The problem for me was this mysterious "width=middle",
> "height=middle" -- this is fairly undocumented at
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layout .  There is a mention of
> "width=middle", but it's just followed by some code, most of which seems to
> be irrelevant ("if cutspace == 0pt then cutspace = backspace; end"), and
> there is no mention of "height=middle".  I would be more than willing to
> document this myself, but what is it that "width=middle" actually *does*?
> And what does "middle" actually *mean* -- the middle of *what*?

just the space between back- and cutspace

(there's also fit, which takes edges into account as they play a role in 
interactive documents)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[James Fisher]

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That makes sense.

The main thing confusing me on contextgarden is:

   if cutspace == 0pt then
      cutspace = backspace
   end

Which I would guess is meant to allow you to just specify backspace if you
want symmetrical margins; but what if we want a 0pt cutspace?

A minor other thing confusing me is the terminology; mainly 'cut' and
'back'.  Are these ConTeXt-specific terms or are they found elsewhere?
'Back' would make more sense to me as 'binding' or 'spine', and the edge
referred to as 'cut' is referred to in
Wikipedia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book#Book_manufacturing_in_the_modern_world>as
the 'fore-edge'.


James

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> On 25-2-2010 21:17, James Fisher wrote:
>
>> Hi Hans,
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the reply -- and sorry for the rather grumpy way in which I
>> posed
>> the question.  The problem for me was this mysterious "width=middle",
>> "height=middle" -- this is fairly undocumented at
>> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Layout .  There is a mention of
>> "width=middle", but it's just followed by some code, most of which seems
>> to
>> be irrelevant ("if cutspace == 0pt then cutspace = backspace; end"), and
>> there is no mention of "height=middle".  I would be more than willing to
>> document this myself, but what is it that "width=middle" actually *does*?
>> And what does "middle" actually *mean* -- the middle of *what*?
>>
>
> just the space between back- and cutspace
>
> (there's also fit, which takes edges into account as they play a role in
> interactive documents)
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>                                          Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 02.03.10 22:33, schrieb James Fisher:
> That makes sense.
>
> The main thing confusing me on contextgarden is:
>
>    if cutspace == 0pt then
>       cutspace = backspace
>    end
>
> Which I would guess is meant to allow you to just specify backspace if 
> you want symmetrical margins; but what if we want a 0pt cutspace?
Then use absolute values for 'backspace' and 'width'.

Wolfgang

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[James Fisher]

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Fairy muff!


James

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Wolfgang Schuster <
schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Am 02.03.10 22:33, schrieb James Fisher:
>
>  That makes sense.
>>
>> The main thing confusing me on contextgarden is:
>>
>>   if cutspace == 0pt then
>>      cutspace = backspace
>>   end
>>
>> Which I would guess is meant to allow you to just specify backspace if you
>> want symmetrical margins; but what if we want a 0pt cutspace?
>>
> Then use absolute values for 'backspace' and 'width'.
>
> Wolfgang
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki     : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[luigi scarso]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:33 PM, James Fisher <jameshfisher@gmail.com> wrote:
> That makes sense.
>
> The main thing confusing me on contextgarden is:
>
>    if cutspace == 0pt then
>       cutspace = backspace
>    end
>
> Which I would guess is meant to allow you to just specify backspace if you
> want symmetrical margins; but what if we want a 0pt cutspace?
>
> A minor other thing confusing me is the terminology; mainly 'cut' and
> 'back'.  Are these ConTeXt-specific terms or are they found elsewhere?

see  page-lay.mkiv

-- 
luigi
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Margin terminology -- badly documented, undocumented, or misdocumented

[Hans Hagen]

On 2-3-2010 22:33, James Fisher wrote:

> A minor other thing confusing me is the terminology; mainly 'cut' and
> 'back'.  Are these ConTeXt-specific terms or are they found elsewhere?
> 'Back' would make more sense to me as 'binding' or 'spine', and the edge
> referred to as 'cut' is referred to in
> Wikipedia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book#Book_manufacturing_in_the_modern_world>as
> the 'fore-edge'.

there are a few more 'not so good translations' ... actually, they were 
translated by native speakers so we hav eto liv ewith them (for some we 
can consider synonyms but not now)

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________