What should I learn?

What should I learn?

[Maurí­cio]

Hi,

I would like to ask you some advice on what
should I learn.

Context was the first typography program I
used. Then I tried Tex and a little bit of
latex.

Context is where I get the best results, but
what I really would like is something that
allows me to do things in my own way, not
something that's always great for reasons I
don't understand. (Of course, the first
documents I would type would not be that good,
but I'll learn with time.)

I thought Tex could be that, but it's not. I
can't use it to create something to fit my
(worst) taste instead of Knuth's (better)
taste without doing a lot more work than I'm
able to do.

I also like to write programs (I use a really
nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
could get what I want if I write or translate
typography functions to that language, and then
write programs to generate documents? Where
could I find or where could I learn about such
functions?

Thanks,
Maurício

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Re: What should I learn?

[luigi scarso]

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>
> I also like to write programs (I use a really
> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
> could get what I want if I write or translate
> typography functions to that language, and then
> write programs to generate documents?

You will reinvent the wheel (TeX)
-- 
luigi

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Re: What should I learn?

[Frans Goddijn]

[new subject line: "dwarfs astride the shoulders of giants"]

Hi Maurício,

I understand your ambition to do it all your own way and do it at  
least as well as the masters, preferably skipping the tedious process  
of following their lead first ;-)

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

Years ago I was at a meeting of local TeX users and the guest speaker  
was a legendary typographer who had written a landmark book about  
making books. In the audience was a young man who had a question, or  
rather an opinion. "In typography, left/right justified text is  
supposed to be the standard, but that's nonsense. I find it better and  
more readable to have text flush left. What do you think?" The  
typographer answered "well maybe you are right, but all the leading  
typographers of centuries before us have disagreed with you."

Others will have different suggestions but you could start out reading  
the TeXbook by Knuth

http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/abcde.html

and any basic book about typography.

Enjoy the trip!

Frans


On 21 okt 2008, at 04:39, Maurí cio wrote:

Hi,

I would like to ask you some advice on what
should I learn.

Context was the first typography program I
used. Then I tried Tex and a little bit of
latex.

Context is where I get the best results, but
what I really would like is something that
allows me to do things in my own way, not
something that's always great for reasons I
don't understand. (Of course, the first
documents I would type would not be that good,
but I'll learn with time.)

I thought Tex could be that, but it's not. I
can't use it to create something to fit my
(worst) taste instead of Knuth's (better)
taste without doing a lot more work than I'm
able to do.

I also like to write programs (I use a really
nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
could get what I want if I write or translate
typography functions to that language, and then
write programs to generate documents? Where
could I find or where could I learn about such
functions?

Thanks,
Maurício

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Re: What should I learn?

[Mauricio]

Thanks. But typography books are not the problem. I've seen many,
many, many of them, and each one makes me unhappy because I have
nowhere to try what they say. My dad is very good at typesetting,
but he can draw very well (everything he writes is manuscript, he
don't drust a computer to do anything after a few bad
experiences). I can't draw, so I need software that gets what I
describe and makes it into PDF.

The problem is: understanding everything about PDF file format,
reading font files, knowing about all available implementations of
typesetting algorithms is far beyond my habilities.

Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
(and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
code of pdftex or luatex?  I can try that, but that's going to be
hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
algorithms).

Thanks for your tips,
Maurício

 > Hi Maurício,
 >
 > (...)
 >
 > Others will have different suggestions but you could start out
 > reading the TeXbook by Knuth
 >
 > http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/abcde.html
 >
 > and any basic book about typography.
 >
 > Enjoy the trip!
 >
 > Frans
 >

 >> Hi,
 >>
 >> I would like to ask you some advice on what should I
 >> learn. (...)
 >>
 >> Context is where I get the best results, but what I really
 >> would like is something that allows me to do things in my own
 >> way, not something that's always great for reasons I don't
 >> understand. (...)
 >>
 >> Do you think I could get what I want if I write or translate
 >> typography functions to that language, and then write programs
 >> to generate documents? Where could I find or where could I
 >> learn about such functions?

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Re: What should I learn?

[Hans Hagen]

Mauricio wrote:

> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
> code of pdftex or luatex?  I can try that, but that's going to be
> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
> algorithms).

you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support 
etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years

Hans

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Re: What should I learn?

[Mauricio]

> Mauricio wrote:
> 
>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
>> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
>> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
>> code of pdftex or luatex?  I can try that, but that's going to be
>> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
>> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
>> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
>> algorithms).
> 
> you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support 
> etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
> 

I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)

I think I want to have enough available libraries so
that I could write small programs to generate documents.
Most of the time I would probably insert the text in
the source code, or create specialized programs that
could deal with specific series of documents (I remember
reading in an interview with Donald Knuth that this is
the way TeX was supposed to be used when it was designed.)

If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least
write a nice library of general purpose typesetting
algorithms that someone could use in the future to do
what I want. Although I don't think giants should be on
top of dwarfs...

Best,
Maurício

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Re: What should I learn?

[Hans Hagen]

Mauricio wrote:
>> Mauricio wrote:
>>
>>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
>>> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
>>> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
>>> code of pdftex or luatex?  I can try that, but that's going to be
>>> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
>>> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
>>> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
>>> algorithms).
>> you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced font support 
>> etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of man-years
>>
> 
> I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)

well, for most users a macro is just an abstraction doing something 
typographically meaningfull; in that sense it's not much different from 
a library where you use some function call to achieve the same

no matter what programming tools you use, the problem remains the same 
... if for instance you want to deal with fonts in a systematic way you 
have to program that (and there are several approaches for organizing 
fonts); in the end you end up with much macro code, haskell code, c 
code, whatever code, either ot not hidden

what system you use or build depend on what you need to typeset, for 
instance if you need to implement a specific design (which changes over 
time and therefore it should be easy to change your code) that is used 
to process thousands of documents codes in a special way ...

> If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least
> write a nice library of general purpose typesetting
> algorithms that someone could use in the future to do
> what I want. Although I don't think giants should be on
> top of dwarfs...

... general purpose might not be what most users want; eventually luatex 
will provide many typesetting library components, but in themselves they 
are rather useless, as it's the integration that makes it useable

Hans

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Re: What should I learn?

[Mauricio]

 >>>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font
 >>>> formats (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when
 >>>> Knuth decided no features would be added anymore. Maybe I
 >>>> should hack the source code of pdftex or luatex? (...)

 >>> you want to writ ea full blown macro package with advanced
 >>> font support etc etc? well, it will take you a couple of
 >>> man-years

 >> I'll never use macros, whatever the task is :)

 > well, for most users a macro is just an abstraction doing
 > something typographically meaningfull; in that sense it's not
 > much different from a library where you use some function call
 > to achieve the same

What I like in non-macro programming is that typing (in the
programming sense, where elements can be used only in places where
their type, or class, is allowed) sometimes helps compose a lot of
complex things into really simple things. I believe the
translation of a document structure made of programming language
data into typographic data is easier (mostly easier to debug).

 > no matter what programming tools you use, the problem remains
 > the same (…)  what system you use or build depend on what you
 > need to typeset (…)

I do think there are language features that can make organization
of documents and use of techniques more powerfull. But I can only
prove that (even to myself) showing something working.

 >> If that's not possible today, maybe I could at least write a
 >> nice library of general purpose typesetting algorithms (…)

 > ... general purpose might not be what most users want;
 > eventually luatex will provide many typesetting library
 > components, but in themselves they are rather useless, as it's
 > the integration that makes it useable.

That's good enough for me. Which books and articles do those
people who are going to write those libraries read? Does TeX book
contain explanation of those algorithms? (Although I've seen that
Context can do things TeX itself can't, maybe there are new important 
ideas around.)

Maurício

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Re: What should I learn?

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Hi,

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:14:50 -0600, Mauricio <briqueabraque@yahoo.com>  
wrote:

> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
> code of pdftex or luatex?  I can try that, but that's going to be
> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
> algorithms).

The beginning of the above paragraph is confused, but I have no time to  
disambiguate :-)

What you are looking for sounds like a pipe dream. OTOH, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lout

It is apparently a "Haskell-like" language that seems to roughly  
correspond to what you are looking for.

Best wishes

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: What should I learn?

[Mauricio]

>> Original Tex is not an option, since PDF, today's font formats
>> (and Unicode) and many algorithms didn't exist when Knuth decided
>> no features would be added anymore. Maybe I should hack the source
>> code of pdftex or luatex?  I can try that, but that's going to be
>> hard work and I would like to know how far I can get before
>> starting, or if there are easier options (like libraries to write
>> PDF and read OpenType and books or example code of typesetting
>> algorithms).

> The beginning of the above paragraph is confused, but I have no time to  
> disambiguate :-)

> What you are looking for sounds like a pipe dream. OTOH, see
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lout
> 
> It is apparently a "Haskell-like" language that seems to roughly  
> correspond to what you are looking for.
> 

I have seen lout. It's document description language seems to use nice 
ideas not used by TeX. But it's dead, since the author has left it to 
pursue "the perfect typesetting language". Maybe he will have something 
great to show in a few years.

Thanks,
Maurício

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Re: What should I learn?

[Aditya Mahajan]

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On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Maurí­cio wrote:

> I also like to write programs (I use a really
> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
> could get what I want if I write or translate
> typography functions to that language, and then
> write programs to generate documents? Where
> could I find or where could I learn about such
> functions?

You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big 
as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand 
than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).

Aditya

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Re: What should I learn?

[Mauricio]

>> I also like to write programs (I use a really
>> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
>> could get what I want if I write or translate
>> typography functions to that language, and then
>> write programs to generate documents? Where
>> could I find or where could I learn about such
>> functions?
> 
> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big 
> as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand 
> than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
> 

Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.

Maurício

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Re: What should I learn?

[Taco Hoekwater]

Mauricio wrote:
>>> I also like to write programs (I use a really
>>> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
>>> could get what I want if I write or translate
>>> typography functions to that language, and then
>>> write programs to generate documents? Where
>>> could I find or where could I learn about such
>>> functions?
>> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as big 
>> as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand 
>> than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
>>
> 
> Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.

IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.

Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source
((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still
the best "beginner's book" if you want to start implementing a general
typesetting system. And then there is the design documentation of
Basser Lout and Ant, but most other published research except is in
scientific journals and/or PhD Theses.


Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: What should I learn?

[luigi scarso]

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On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:

> Mauricio wrote:
> >>> I also like to write programs (I use a really
> >>> nice language named Haskell). Do you thing I
> >>> could get what I want if I write or translate
> >>> typography functions to that language, and then
> >>> write programs to generate documents? Where
> >>> could I find or where could I learn about such
> >>> functions?
> >> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. It is not as
> big
> >> as TeX and is written in Ocaml, so you may find it easier to understand
> >> than the source code of TeX (a mixture of pascal, change files, and C).
> >>
> >
> > Great! Thanks! There's a lot there I can study.
>
> IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.
>
> Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source
> ((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still
> the best "beginner's book" if you want to start implementing a general
> typesetting system.

And, for luatex,
http://groups.foundry.supelec.fr/modules/luatex/luatex.pdf

-- 
luigi

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Re: What should I learn?

[Maurí­cio]

>      >>> (...)
>      >> You can also have a look at ant http://ant.berlios.de/. (...)
> 
>     IIRC, earlier versions of ant were actually written in haskell.
> 
>     Regarding stuff to read: the typeset version of the (pdf)tex source
>     ((pdf)tex.web+(pdf)tex.ch after processing by weave) is probably still
>     the best "beginner's book" (...)

> And, for luatex,
> http://groups.foundry.supelec.fr/modules/luatex/luatex.pdf
> 

You guys are great. I could not expect to
find so much good stuff so well organized
in just two packages.

Thanks,
Maurício

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