* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-01 17:08 Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2010-04-01 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ConTeXt list
Hello,
This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
next 12 months. After the recent discussions about documentation on
this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
delegating this task.
The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
us to pay another writer. Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!
Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
like.
Cheers,
Hans (pragma at wxs do nl)
Taco (taco at elvenkind dot com)
Arthur (arthur dot reutenauer at normalesup dot org)
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:08 The ConTeXt book Arthur Reutenauer
@ 2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-01 17:29 ` Michail Vidiassov
` (2 more replies)
2010-04-01 17:32 ` The ConTeXt book luigi scarso
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 3 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Martin Schröder @ 2010-04-01 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ConTeXt list
2010/4/1 Arthur Reutenauer <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>:
> This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months. After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.
Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
Best
Martin
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
@ 2010-04-01 17:29 ` Michail Vidiassov
2010-04-01 17:35 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-02 9:49 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Michail Vidiassov @ 2010-04-01 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 142 bytes --]
On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Martin Schröder wrote:
> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
and a good one, one you _want_ to believe...
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-01 17:29 ` Michail Vidiassov
@ 2010-04-01 17:35 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-02 9:49 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-01 17:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:
> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
if so
another beer for me
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-01 17:29 ` Michail Vidiassov
2010-04-01 17:35 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-02 9:49 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-02 9:57 ` luigi scarso
2 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2010-04-02 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
Martin, you're so evil! Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word). Fortunately people didn't pay
too much attention to your mail :-]
To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
Taco. Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
ConTeXt book. But, even with the incentive of money, time and
motivation are also a problem.
And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te! It's
heartwarming to see truly sincere support. I'm sorry I have nothing to
provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
moving?
Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
Arthur
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 9:49 ` Arthur Reutenauer
@ 2010-04-02 9:57 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-02 10:08 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-02 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>
> Martin, you're so evil! Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word). Fortunately people didn't pay
> too much attention to your mail :-]
>
> To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
> Taco. Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
> ConTeXt book. But, even with the incentive of money, time and
> motivation are also a problem.
>
> And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te! It's
> heartwarming to see truly sincere support. I'm sorry I have nothing to
> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
> moving?
>
> Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
So let's see this year what I have won;
Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
Hans: + beer
Arthur: + beer
Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)
They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 9:57 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-02 10:08 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 11:18 ` John Haltiwanger
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-02 10:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 2-4-2010 11:57, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
> <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
>>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>>
>> Martin, you're so evil! Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
>> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
>> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word). Fortunately people didn't pay
>> too much attention to your mail :-]
>>
>> To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
>> Taco. Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
>> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
>> ConTeXt book. But, even with the incentive of money, time and
>> motivation are also a problem.
>>
>> And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te! It's
>> heartwarming to see truly sincere support. I'm sorry I have nothing to
>> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
>> moving?
>>
>> Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
> So let's see this year what I have won;
> Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
> Hans: + beer
> Arthur: + beer
> Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)
but that's a german size which is twice the dutch so ...
> They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..
5 then ... i'd better let you update the modules documentation then
before you start drinking (there will be a current next week, so you
have plenty of time)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 10:08 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-02 11:18 ` John Haltiwanger
2010-04-02 11:40 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: John Haltiwanger @ 2010-04-02 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Ah, I was going to respond in an offlist email to Arthur that I am
available for help. My masters thesis, though evolved considerably
since I first submitted a vague description some months ago, is still
significantly focused on ConTeXt. I will necessarily be documenting
the means by which I overcome certain obstacles, achieve certain
effects, etc. This will appear through blog posts, and in the end may
or may not be typeset into a kind of "Excursion"-style PDF. All this
discussion of poor documentation at times brings fear into my
enthusiasm for this thesis. On the one hand I do not wish to rely on
mk.II, and on the other I've heard people say that any projects they
begin in mk.IV end up being written for mk.II for stability purposes.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Anyway, just wanted to say that there was to be at least one more
individual offering help. Too bad it turns out to be a joke :/
Regards,
John Haltiwanger
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 2-4-2010 11:57, luigi scarso wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
>> <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>>>
>>> Martin, you're so evil! Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
>>> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
>>> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word). Fortunately people didn't pay
>>> too much attention to your mail :-]
>>>
>>> To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
>>> Taco. Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
>>> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
>>> ConTeXt book. But, even with the incentive of money, time and
>>> motivation are also a problem.
>>>
>>> And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te! It's
>>> heartwarming to see truly sincere support. I'm sorry I have nothing to
>>> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
>>> moving?
>>>
>>> Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
>>
>> So let's see this year what I have won;
>> Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
>> Hans: + beer
>> Arthur: + beer
>> Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)
>
> but that's a german size which is twice the dutch so ...
>
>> They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..
>
> 5 then ... i'd better let you update the modules documentation then before
> you start drinking (there will be a current next week, so you have plenty of
> time)
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
> | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 11:18 ` John Haltiwanger
@ 2010-04-02 11:40 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 12:20 ` John Haltiwanger
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-02 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 2-4-2010 13:18, John Haltiwanger wrote:
> Ah, I was going to respond in an offlist email to Arthur that I am
> available for help. My masters thesis, though evolved considerably
> since I first submitted a vague description some months ago, is still
> significantly focused on ConTeXt. I will necessarily be documenting
> the means by which I overcome certain obstacles, achieve certain
> effects, etc. This will appear through blog posts, and in the end may
> or may not be typeset into a kind of "Excursion"-style PDF. All this
> discussion of poor documentation at times brings fear into my
> enthusiasm for this thesis. On the one hand I do not wish to rely on
> mk.II, and on the other I've heard people say that any projects they
> begin in mk.IV end up being written for mk.II for stability purposes.
> It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that
bad; the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 11:40 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-02 12:20 ` John Haltiwanger
2010-04-02 12:25 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-02 14:12 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: John Haltiwanger @ 2010-04-02 12:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that bad;
> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
Good to know :)
I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
code?
Re: documentation,
Perhaps a thing to do in the meantime is start a section on the wiki
where we do a command by command description of what different macros
accomplish? (Apologies if I'm mincing terminologies here). Starting
with the undocumented ones, but then working back and providing a bit
of insight into use cases, such as what 'middle' may mean in a given
instance, or that it's the best/required option (this point is still
fuzzy to me). The command ref is just not insightful at my level of
TeX.
The thesis case study is concurrent typesetting of itself in HTML,
ODT, and ConTeXt. Part of the idea is to interrogate different
capabilities and comparing the processes between the formats for
accomplishing the same thing (toggle-able sidenotes instead of
footnote/endnote citations in ConTeXt vs HTML, for instance). So in
that sense there should be more tutorial style content available for
the wiki. I'll be pestering the list for help in those areas, I'm
sure.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 12:20 ` John Haltiwanger
@ 2010-04-02 12:25 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-02 12:39 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-02 14:12 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-04-02 12:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Hans Hagen
John Haltiwanger wrote:
> Re: documentation,
>
> Perhaps a thing to do in the meantime is start a section on the wiki
> where we do a command by command description of what different macros
> accomplish?
As of right now, Patrick has overstepped his self-imposed deadline
for merging the texshow-web data into the wiki by 38 hours and 23
minutes. :)
The main idea behind that planned move is that the wiki is a much
friendlier editing environment than texshow-web, thereby increasing
the chances of people contributing better descriptions and examples.
Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 12:25 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-02 12:39 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-02 22:32 ` Russell Urquhart
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Gundlach @ 2010-04-02 12:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> As of right now, Patrick has overstepped his self-imposed deadline
> for merging the texshow-web data into the wiki by 38 hours and 23
> minutes. :)
:-) Actually my load average goes down from 2.3 to 1.0 currently and probably down to 0.5 next week, so I hope not to push my deadline by more then 14 days.
Patrick
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 12:39 ` Patrick Gundlach
@ 2010-04-02 22:32 ` Russell Urquhart
2010-04-03 5:37 ` Gour
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Russell Urquhart @ 2010-04-02 22:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke! I would have loved to have been able to contribute a little to such a good effort!
Russ
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 22:32 ` Russell Urquhart
@ 2010-04-03 5:37 ` Gour
2010-04-03 6:47 ` Alan BRASLAU
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Gour @ 2010-04-03 5:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1165 bytes --]
On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:32:50 -0500
>>>>>> "Russell" == Russell Urquhart <russurquhart1@verizon.net> wrote:
Russell> As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting
Russell> into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke!
Just see the sad affair of Context's docs so that the 'book' is topic for
the April's 1st joke. :-(
If it wouldn't be so sad, it would be funny...
At the moment I'm looking to learn jQuery and, rest assured, there are
several books to choose from. Being a 'book' guy, it's hard to find
any significant project without either up-to-date manual or some books
available, and I definitely consider that ConTeXt could be one.
However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
about it...)
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------
[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 5:37 ` Gour
@ 2010-04-03 6:47 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-04-03 7:47 ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-04-03 6:54 ` Taco Hoekwater
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2010-04-03 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On Saturday 03 April 2010 07:37:36 Gour wrote:
>
> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
>
You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!
Alan
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 6:47 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-04-03 7:47 ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-04-03 11:32 ` Gour
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Mojca Miklavec @ 2010-04-03 7:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 08:47, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Saturday 03 April 2010 07:37:36 Gour wrote:
>>
>> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
>> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
>> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
>
> You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!
I really love that answer :) :) :) And it's definitely true. Much more
true than the ConTeXt-to-LaTeX ratio :)
ConTeXt has a bus-factor of 1. Well, if you ask me, the whole LaTeX
core has bus-factor 0 (apart from some well-maintaned packages; and
even those packages usually have bus-factor just a tiny fraction above
1; including TikZ, tex4ht, ...). If you want full support and more
guarantee with a higher bus-factor, you should better choose Adobe or
Microsoft products and I really mean it. For me it's just fun to
browse the sources from time to time ...
It is definitely true that a manual is needed (everyone agrees with
that), but you need to keep in mind that Hans makes a living with what
he does and we can be extremely happy that he releases ConTeXt
publically at all (he could just as well keep it in private for
himself and his company). Writing a good manual could easily take
one-man-year or more, so if some company is willing to pay him for
that, he (or some other almost-developer) would probably do it.
What nobody here realizes that main developers of jQuery or any other
tools probably don't answer dozens of mails daily to beginners'
questions on the mailing lists.
As already said: anyone is free to start writing a manual by himself.
People to help will join later ... Just start.
Mojca
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 5:37 ` Gour
2010-04-03 6:47 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-04-03 6:54 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 11:42 ` Gour
2010-04-03 8:51 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 8:59 ` Martin Schröder
3 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-04-03 6:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi,
Gour wrote:
>
> Russell> As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting
> Russell> into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke!
>
> Just see the sad affair of Context's docs so that the 'book' is topic for
> the April's 1st joke. :-(
> If it wouldn't be so sad, it would be funny...
Personally, I think it is a sad joke that I started a community project
to update the reference manual after a lot of complaints about the
documentation but over four years down the road the actual community
turns out to have a population closely approximating one.
> At the moment I'm looking to learn jQuery and, rest assured, there are
> several books to choose from.
If you could convince mozilla to adopt ConTeXt, I am sure there would
be a lot of books within half a year. Have a closer look on books on
'hot topics' like jQuery and you'll see that almost none of these
books are written by the inventors themselves. Granted, often the first
(and sometimes the best) books are by the inventors, but the *number*
of books on a subject just gives an indication of the book market size,
nothing more.
> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create more
users (nor even automatically create readers, for that matter).
> This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
> is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
> about it...)
The answer to this question is quite obvious if you have read Douglas
Adams' books: the bus will think about the impact of its actions on the
universe for a moment. Then, deeply immersed in gut-wrenching shame,
it will travel back in time half a minute and push its own breaks for
an emergency stop.
Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 6:54 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 11:42 ` Gour
0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Gour @ 2010-04-03 11:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 966 bytes --]
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:54:54 +0200
>>>>>> "Taco" == Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
Taco> Granted, often the first (and sometimes the best) books are by
Taco> the inventors, but the *number* of books on a subject just gives
Taco> an indication of the book market size, nothing more.
Well, I used example of jQuery which is hot for me atm, but I could
say Django as well or something.
Why do you think the books about different projects are written &
bought? It's not novel-market...
Taco> The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create
Taco> more users (nor even automatically create readers, for that
Taco> matter).
Hmm, interesting...
If even you think that ConTeXt books are not important (to bring new
users), then no wonder we do not have even a single one...
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------
[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 5:37 ` Gour
2010-04-03 6:47 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-04-03 6:54 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 8:51 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 11:48 ` Gour
2010-04-03 8:59 ` Martin Schröder
3 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 8:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Gour
On 3-4-2010 7:37, Gour wrote:
> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list whih
makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of the active
tex lists
also keep in mind that lates (+amsmath) was declared 'a standard' soon
after tex surfaced ... just wonder why currently there are only two main
macro packages: latex and context .. it sometimes surprises me that
eventually we made it to this stage
also, quite some developments originate and relate to the context
community which might also be a good sign
as taco mentions ... 99% of the latex books are not written by lamport
also, even today i see books show up that cover the same topics every
time so it looks like none of the books is the definitive answer
anyway ... idris is writing a context book so push him to speed up
> This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
> is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
> about it...)
there are couple of folks out there (and on the list) who know the
source code pretty well so i would not worry to much about that
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 8:51 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-03 11:48 ` Gour
2010-04-03 12:30 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Gour @ 2010-04-03 11:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1574 bytes --]
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:51:33 +0200
>>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
Hello Hans,
Hans> you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list
Hans> whih makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of
Hans> the active tex lists
I just conveyed real message which I got, nothing else, i.e. I did not
paint that picture...
Here you can e.g. see reply from the main dev which I got 2 years ago
when asked about support for ConTexT in docutils (which does LaTeX):
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.docutils.user/4404
Hans> also keep in mind that lates (+amsmath) was declared 'a standard'
Hans> soon after tex surfaced ... just wonder why currently there are
Hans> only two main macro packages: latex and context .. it sometimes
Hans> surprises me that eventually we made it to this stage
I offer my deepest respect for your work and tireless enthusiasm.
Hans> as taco mentions ... 99% of the latex books are not written by
Hans> lamport
Nobody expects that you write the book...
Hans> anyway ... idris is writing a context book so push him to speed up
That's very nice to hear...much better than some other replies in this
thread. ;)
Hans> there are couple of folks out there (and on the list) who know
Hans> the source code pretty well so i would not worry to much about
Hans> that
OK. We hope there won't be need for the proof in practice.
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------
[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 11:48 ` Gour
@ 2010-04-03 12:30 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Gour
On 3-4-2010 1:48, Gour wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:51:33 +0200
>>>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
> Hello Hans,
>
> Hans> you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list
> Hans> whih makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of
> Hans> the active tex lists
>
> I just conveyed real message which I got, nothing else, i.e. I did not
> paint that picture...
>
> Here you can e.g. see reply from the main dev which I got 2 years ago
> when asked about support for ConTexT in docutils (which does LaTeX):
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.docutils.user/4404
i've been sent worse examples, like "context is just plain tex" or
"context is a package for latex" or "context cannot do math" or ...
also "luatex is not going to succees" or "luatex is a bad idea" or ...
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 5:37 ` Gour
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-04-03 8:51 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-03 8:59 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-03 9:15 ` Wolfgang Schuster
3 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Martin Schröder @ 2010-04-03 8:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
2010/4/3 Gour <gour@gour-nitai.com>:
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
The answer is true if you only have to write articles for scientific
journals - AFAIK there is no major one accepting Context input.
Get AMS or ACM to accept Context and you will see books soon.
Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)
Best
Martin
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 8:59 ` Martin Schröder
@ 2010-04-03 9:15 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 9:20 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 9:47 ` Vedran Miletić
0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 10:59, schrieb Martin Schröder:
> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)
>
http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:15 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 9:20 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 12:03 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 9:47 ` Vedran Miletić
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 9:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
what do you think about luaLaTeX compatibility module for ConTeX-mkiv ?
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:20 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 12:03 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:01 ` luigi scarso
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 12:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 11:20, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>>
> what do you think about luaLaTeX compatibility module for ConTeX-mkiv ?
>
1. The LaTeX module is from Brooks Moses, not me.
2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 12:03 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 13:01 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:09 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 13:36 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
\usemodule[latex]
and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:01 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 13:09 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 13:31 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:36 ` Wolfgang Schuster
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-04-03 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
> \usemodule[latex]
> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
Sounds like a good goal, but it will need a new maintainer, I think.
However, Brooks seems to have left us, and I myself lost my interest in
LaTeX compatibility (I wrote a fair bit of the module code, back when I
had a commercial project that was originally latex and wanted to be
able to cut and paste esp. the tabular material).
Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:09 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 13:31 ` luigi scarso
0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 13:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> luigi scarso wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
>> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>
>> \usemodule[latex]
>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>
> Sounds like a good goal, but it will need a new maintainer, I think.
>
> However, Brooks seems to have left us, and I myself lost my interest in
> LaTeX compatibility (I wrote a fair bit of the module code, back when I
> had a commercial project that was originally latex and wanted to be
> able to cut and paste esp. the tabular material).
The interesting part for me is that most of lua code is already here
in some form.
BTW luaLaTeX team is up and running these days, I'm following it
because this year EUROTEX meeting will be in Italy where latex
community is strong
(almost like ConTeXt Italian community of course :-) )
and humanist-oriented .
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:01 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:09 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 13:36 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:42 ` luigi scarso
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 13:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>
> \usemodule[latex]
> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>
And what's with the Lua part you want?
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:36 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 13:42 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 16:09 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 13:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>
>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>>
>>
>> \usemodule[latex]
>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>>
>
> And what's with the Lua part you want?
encoding
font management
name space to avoid macro collision
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:42 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 13:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:53 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 16:11 ` The ConTeXt book Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 16:09 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>>
> encoding
>
\usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible
with pure tex code
> font management
>
i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
> name space to avoid macro collision
>
tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 13:53 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:56 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 14:02 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 16:11 ` The ConTeXt book Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>
>>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>>>
>>
>> encoding
>>
>
> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
>
> and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible with
> pure tex code
>>
>> font management
>>
>
> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
these ones
>> name space to avoid macro collision
> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
tex macros
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:53 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 13:56 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 14:14 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:02 ` Wolfgang Schuster
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:53 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
>> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
encoding are gone
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:53 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:56 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 14:02 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:16 ` luigi scarso
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 15:53, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> font managemen
>> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
>> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
>>
> these ones
>
The code for luaotfload is taken from ConTeXt. A high level interface
like fontspec is not so hard (see simplefonts) and the information you
need for optical sized fonts (like Latin Modern or Minion Pro) are there
since November last year, e.g. this is the entry for LM Roman 12
{
designsize=120,
familyname="latinmodernroman",
filename="lmroman12-regular.otf",
fontname="lmroman12regular",
format="otf",
fullname="lmroman12regular",
maxsize=140,
minsize=110,
modifiers="12regular",
rawname="LMRoman12-Regular",
style="normal",
subfamily="regular",
variant="normal",
weight="normal",
width="normal",
},
>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>
>> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
>>
> tex macros
>
Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
\end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 14:02 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 14:16 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 14:42 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The code for luaotfload is taken from ConTeXt. A high level interface
> like fontspec is not so hard (see simplefonts)
yes, exactly what I'm thinking.
>and the information you
> need for optical sized fonts (like Latin Modern or Minion Pro) are there
> since November last year, e.g. this is the entry for LM Roman 12
>
> {
> designsize=120,
> familyname="latinmodernroman",
:
> width="normal",
> },
again yes
>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
Lua can be more effective than TeX here ?
>>encoding are gone
> Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
I care only unicode utf-8
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 14:16 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 14:42 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:44 ` (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book) Taco Hoekwater
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 16:16, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>>>
>> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
>> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
>> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
>> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
>>
> Lua can be more effective than TeX here ?
>
Lua can't do anything with conflicts at the user level.
For a LaTeX module you can do something like
\begin{env} -> \??lm:begin:env
\end{env} -> \??lm:end:env
>>> encoding are gone
>>>
>> Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
>>
> I care only unicode utf-8
>
This wasn't the question ;)
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 14:42 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 14:44 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 14:55 ` luigi scarso
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-04-03 14:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 16:16, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>>>>
>>> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
>>> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
>>> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
>>> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
>>>
>> Lua can be more effective than TeX here ?
>>
> Lua can't do anything with conflicts at the user level.
>
> For a LaTeX module you can do something like
>
> \begin{env} -> \??lm:begin:env
> \end{env} -> \??lm:end:env
I think the current latex module does
\def\begin#1{\csname start#1\endcsname}
\def\end#1{\csname stop#1\endcsname}
but that all depends on how much latex compatibility is
really needed.
Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 14:44 ` (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book) Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 14:55 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 15:04 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 14:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
@Taco
> I think the current latex module does
>
> \def\begin#1{\csname start#1\endcsname}
> \def\end#1{\csname stop#1\endcsname}
>
> but that all depends on how much latex compatibility is
> really needed.
Only for latex/base/*
@Wolfgang
>>>Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
>>I care only unicode utf-8
> This wasn't the question ;)
??
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 14:55 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 15:04 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 15:11 ` luigi scarso
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 16:55, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> I care only unicode utf-8
>>>
>> This wasn't the question ;)
>>
> ??
>
You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
ehat you use or what's the preferred encoding is another topic.
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 15:04 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 15:11 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 16:44 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
id est ?
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 15:11 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 16:44 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 16:49 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 17:11, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
>>
> id est ?
>
\enableregime[latin1]
\starttext
AOUÄÖÜ
\stoptext
When encodins are really gone this should fail with mkiv
but what you get as output is 'AOUÄÖU' what means encodings
aren't gone. It's recommended to use UTF-8 encoded input
but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 16:44 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 16:49 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 17:09 ` luigi scarso
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 3-4-2010 6:44, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 17:11, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
>> id est ?
> \enableregime[latin1]
> \starttext
> AOUÄÖÜ
> \stoptext
>
> When encodins are really gone this should fail with mkiv
> but what you get as output is 'AOUÄÖU' what means encodings
> aren't gone. It's recommended to use UTF-8 encoded input
> but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.
indeed and there is no reason to drop backward compatibility in that
respect
of course font (and math) encodings are completely gone
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 16:49 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-03 17:09 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 17:15 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 3-4-2010 6:44, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>>
>> Am 03.04.10 17:11, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>
>>>> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
>>>
>>> id est ?
>>
>> \enableregime[latin1]
>> \starttext
>> AOUÄÖÜ
>> \stoptext
acceptable in mkii
horror in mkiv
>>
>> When encodins are really gone this should fail with mkiv
>> but what you get as output is 'AOUÄÖU' what means encodings
>> aren't gone. It's recommended to use UTF-8 encoded input
>> but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.
or invent one by myself too --why not ?
> indeed and there is no reason to drop backward compatibility in that respect
yes yes , of course backward comp.
But, apart this (which is important etc etc etc) any other issue ?
I mean: I'm typesetting international pricelist from 7 years, it would
be impossible to manage thing without unicode and context.
If one submit a file in a known (iconv --list) encoding I convert it
in unicode utf *before* and then process with mkiv.
And iconv can be eventually link in lua, by a dynamic linking --- not
need for peek and poke sources.
Or it can be done in pure lua.
Am I wrong ?
Anyway I do the rules --- only one input encoding: unicode utf-8 .
Sorry for the others.
>
> of course font (and math) encodings are completely gone
unicode input & uncode fonts are the news --- you typeset what you see
I understand that ``correct'' is the right way
but please
“correct” is better (the perfect way)
(I mean
U+201C LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK correct U+201D RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK
)
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 17:09 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 17:15 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 17:19 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 18:33 ` Martin Schröder
0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 3-4-2010 7:09, luigi scarso wrote:
>>> but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.
> or invent one by myself too --why not ?
ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 17:15 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-03 17:19 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 17:22 ` Andrea Valle
2010-04-03 17:30 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 18:33 ` Martin Schröder
1 sibling, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-03 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Hans Hagen; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
Uh? who needs them ?
never had a problem with italian & context
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 17:19 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 17:22 ` Andrea Valle
2010-04-03 17:30 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Valle @ 2010-04-03 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1479 bytes --]
me neither. Should I ? :)
-a-
On Apr 3, 2010, at 7:19 PM, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that
>> there
>> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
> Uh? who needs them ?
> never had a problem with italian & context
>
> --
> luigi
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------
Andrea Valle
--------------------------------------------------
CIRMA - DAMS
Università degli Studi di Torino
--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/
--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle
--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/
--> http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle
--> andrea.valle@unito.it
--------------------------------------------------
" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a
lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous."
(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 3385 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 17:19 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 17:22 ` Andrea Valle
@ 2010-04-03 17:30 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: luigi scarso; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 3-4-2010 7:19, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
>> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
> Uh? who needs them ?
> never had a problem with italian& context
ah, so you would actually have considered it a serious joke then -)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)
2010-04-03 17:15 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 17:19 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 18:33 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-03 18:34 ` Taco Hoekwater
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Martin Schröder @ 2010-04-03 18:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
2010/4/3 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>:
> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
After that can we have ascii please?
Best
Martin
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:53 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 16:11 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 16:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 3-4-2010 3:49, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>> encoding
> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
>
> and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible
> with pure tex code
who cares about that? will you then start using latex commands instead?
and i'm pretty sure that although it might sound similar that the
appeoached are different
>> font management
> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
>> name space to avoid macro collision
> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
again a macro package specific problem; in context we have namespaces
already for a long time and it works ok
and believe me, there's not much to share .. it's way more easy for me
write code from scratch in a context way
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:42 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 16:09 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 3-4-2010 3:42, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>
>>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>>>
>>>
>>> \usemodule[latex]
>>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>>>
>>
>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
> encoding
> font management
> name space to avoid macro collision
well, latex and context differ fundamentally and i'm not going to waste
time on making things that can be shared (the font stuff is an exception
and i only do the plain part; there might be more plain modules
eventually); just look at the mp to pdf code ... you don't want to know
what i had to do over time to keep it running in all macro packages
and, as said the approach, interfaces, integratin of latex is so
different that it makes no sense either; of course if i'm paid well i
can consider making generic derivates but that's unlikely to happen
my energy goes in context. (period)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:15 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 9:20 ` luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-03 9:47 ` Vedran Miletić
2010-04-03 12:07 ` Wolfgang Schuster
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Vedran Miletić @ 2010-04-03 9:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
2010/4/3 Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com>:
> Am 03.04.10 10:59, schrieb Martin Schröder:
>>
>> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)
>>
>
> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>
> Wolfgang
Wow!
Any documentation on what it supports?
--
Vedran Miletić
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 12:20 ` John Haltiwanger
2010-04-02 12:25 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-02 14:12 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 14:16 ` Matthias Weber
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-02 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: John Haltiwanger; +Cc: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 2-4-2010 14:20, John Haltiwanger wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>
>> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that bad;
>> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
>
> Good to know :)
>
> I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
> than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
> a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
> that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
> code?
the same and more, it's still tex but we can now extend using lua so we
can go beyond what normal tex can do
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-02 14:12 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-02 14:16 ` Matthias Weber
[not found] ` <h2w6faad9f01004021355xa0e88f8ew8fad640bb072c0bd@mail.gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Matthias Weber @ 2010-04-02 14:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Yes, that's indeed good to know. My MAIN problem with mkiv is that I
can't get interaction bars working. I posted two basic setups a while
ago,
and while they work fine in mkii, they fail in mkiv. Never got a
response ...
Matthias
On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 2-4-2010 14:20, John Haltiwanger wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not
>>> that bad;
>>> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
>>
>> Good to know :)
>>
>> I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
>> than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
>> a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
>> that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
>> code?
>
> the same and more, it's still tex but we can now extend using lua so
> we can go beyond what normal tex can do
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
> Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
> tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
> | www.pragma-pod.nl
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:08 The ConTeXt book Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
@ 2010-04-01 17:32 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-01 17:40 ` Sebastien Mengin
2010-04-01 18:45 ` Graham Douglas
3 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: luigi scarso @ 2010-04-01 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ConTeXt list
a disposizione.
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months. After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.
>
> The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
> respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
> us to pay another writer. Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
> company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!
>
> Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
> respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
> like.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hans (pragma at wxs do nl)
> Taco (taco at elvenkind dot com)
> Arthur (arthur dot reutenauer at normalesup dot org)
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
--
luigi
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:08 The ConTeXt book Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-01 17:32 ` The ConTeXt book luigi scarso
@ 2010-04-01 17:40 ` Sebastien Mengin
2010-04-01 17:43 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-01 18:45 ` Graham Douglas
3 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Sebastien Mengin @ 2010-04-01 17:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ConTeXt list
Le 01 avril 2010 à 07:08, Arthur Reutenauer a écrit:
> Hello,
>
> This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months. After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.
>
> The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
> respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
> us to pay another writer. Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
> company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!
>
> Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
> respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
> like.
Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
afterward?
I would definitely like to get involved in such a project -- as a
volunteer (proof read or the like...).
Bye,
--
Sébastien Mengin
Édition et logiciels libres
< Mise en page avec LaTeX >
http://edilibre.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:40 ` Sebastien Mengin
@ 2010-04-01 17:43 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-01 19:38 ` Alan BRASLAU
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-01 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 1-4-2010 19:40, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
> Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
> afterward?
that's indeed a problem. as there is some european funding involved as
well as from somefrench academy it has to be in french but once the
content is there arthur will also do the translation (i still remember
eurotex in brest ... all in french because of some rules)
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:43 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-01 19:38 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-04-01 19:58 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Alan BRASLAU @ 2010-04-01 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
On Thursday 01 April 2010 19:43:51 Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 1-4-2010 19:40, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
> > Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
> > afterward?
>
> that's indeed a problem. as there is some european funding involved as
> well as from somefrench academy it has to be in french but once the
> content is there arthur will also do the translation (i still remember
> eurotex in brest ... all in french because of some rules)
>
> Hans
That was the early effects of some un-enforceable law carrying the name
of Mr. "All-good" (law Toubon).
I recently organized an international summer school in Corsica
(nice place to hold a summer school) and indeed was contacted by some
obscure association with the aim of defending the French language.
You see, our website was in English (remember, *international* summer school)
and we were "reported" by one of their members. (They had no shame to
say so... kind of reminds one not the very best episodes of recent
French history.)
So I looked into the law and followed it to the letter: I offered to the
one French national teacher (out of 12) the possibility to give his course
in French. Of course he would not think of it. And I made sure that we had
a translation device on hand (a dictionary).
So I suggest that Arthur write the book in French and maybe I could
translate it into Dutch.
Alan
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 19:38 ` Alan BRASLAU
@ 2010-04-01 19:58 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-01 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On 1-4-2010 21:38, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> So I looked into the law and followed it to the letter: I offered to the
> one French national teacher (out of 12) the possibility to give his course
> in French. Of course he would not think of it. And I made sure that we had
> a translation device on hand (a dictionary).
Ah ... translators ... I remember that we had quite some fun when the
translator started to make jokes (of couse only for the non french who
had headsets) ... some on this list who were present might remember the
"Sorry folks, i cannot translate this yet as i have no clue where this
gusy is heading and there is sign that he will finish his sentence in
time." Of course he got an applause afterwards.
Okay, but in general I do have good memories of meetings in France.
Especially one Gutenberg meeting in a castle: 50% talks and 50% very
good eating. And of course the famous nice 16th aniversay meeting ...
> So I suggest that Arthur write the book in French and maybe I could
> translate it into Dutch.
Ah, great! Because I wanted to give Slovian a try.
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-01 17:08 The ConTeXt book Arthur Reutenauer
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-04-01 17:40 ` Sebastien Mengin
@ 2010-04-01 18:45 ` Graham Douglas
3 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Graham Douglas @ 2010-04-01 18:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
>This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
>to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
>next 12 months. After the recent discussions about documentation on
>this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
>getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
>delegating this task.
This is brilliant news! Perhaps additional funds to support this could
be raised by a Paypal donations account? Or, should the manual be
"sufficiently stable" at some point to sell hard copies via digital
printing. Sure, we can all print the PDFs but I, for one, am buried
in piles of unwieldy printouts and prefer a proper bound copy, any day.
Printing large ConTeXt docs would be heavy duty work for most
home printers and use lots of ink, so bound hard copies would be quite
an economic alternative, in my opinion.
Maybe it's my age but I really don't like reading copious amounts of
documentation on screen, no matter how carefully the PDFs are designed.
A great piece of news indeed.
Warm regards
Graham
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03 9:23 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 9:41 ` Patrick Gundlach
` (4 more replies)
0 siblings, 5 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03 9:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
"This is the project which has only 5 or 6 users. Who actually uses
it? Use LaTeX!"
That's the feeling I'm getting. I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
basic things in Context. Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
can't, but there is no way to find out. If the claims that Context is
better really aren't empty, I would expect a lot of people to switch,
but I imagine 99% of them are in the same boat I'm in---trying to
switch and finding it practically impossible. I imagine many people
try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
back to LaTeX.
Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key: it can be
free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
only of benefit to Pragma. (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
in the code and wonder about.)
Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book. The knowledge
is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
communicate it. It's evident that they either can't or won't.
I really would like to see the quality of computer typesetting
advance, and I was hopeful at hearing about Luatex/Context. I'd love
to see Context produce better output more easily than LaTeX, but so
far I'm putting a lot of effort into it to get some very disappointing
results. One might place some hope in a future (21st c.?) LaTeX 3
based on Luatex, but that would depend on Hans explaining how Luatex
works, and it seems doubtful that would ever happen.
For now I'm sticking with Context because I still hope there might be
some value in it, but it's hard to find.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:23 Michael Saunders
@ 2010-04-03 9:41 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-03 12:38 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 10:54 ` Andreas Schneider
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Gundlach @ 2010-04-03 9:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi Michael,
> based on Luatex, but that would depend on Hans explaining how Luatex
> works
LuaTeX is documented very thoroughly. The manual is 180 pages and as far as I can see it mentions and describes every aspect of the API. I am not saying that from the reference manual alone I understand every detail (every now and then I need to ask a question on the mailinglist), but that is a different subject as TeX itself is rather complex (you need knowledge about glue and boxes for example).
Patrick
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:23 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 9:41 ` Patrick Gundlach
@ 2010-04-03 10:54 ` Andreas Schneider
2010-04-03 12:13 ` Gour
2010-04-03 12:24 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 11:20 ` Taco Hoekwater
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schneider @ 2010-04-03 10:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Michael Saunders wrote:
> Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key: it can be
> free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
> only of benefit to Pragma. (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
> are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
> in the code and wonder about.)
If you spend some time on the mailing list your probably make the contrary
observation. There are countless cases where Hans, Taco or Wolfgang
implement some features to fulfill a request of a user. Nearly every time I
had a question/problem, a solution came up within _hours_. That's quite
impressive imho.
That also means that many solutions can be found by searching the mailing
list archives ... not few things are also mentioned in the Wiki. And for the
very basic problems, the "old" manuals still mostly apply.
I do think that it would be pretty awesome to have a central up-to-date
documentation which I could also recommend to other people I try to convince
to use ConTeXt instead of Word, Writer or LaTeX. But at least for my
personal needs I find answers to most of my questions already.
Best Regards,
Andreas.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 10:54 ` Andreas Schneider
@ 2010-04-03 12:13 ` Gour
2010-04-03 12:45 ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 12:24 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Gour @ 2010-04-03 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2209 bytes --]
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 12:54:18 +0200
>>>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Schneider <aksdb@gmx.de> wrote:
Hello Andreas,
Andreas> If you spend some time on the mailing list your probably make
Andreas> the contrary observation. There are countless cases where
Andreas> Hans, Taco or Wolfgang implement some features to fulfill a
Andreas> request of a user. Nearly every time I had a question/problem,
Andreas> a solution came up within _hours_. That's quite impressive
Andreas> imho. That also means that many solutions can be found by
Andreas> searching the mailing list archives ... not few things are
Andreas> also mentioned in the Wiki. And for the very basic problems,
Andreas> the "old" manuals still mostly apply.
Thank you for your post. You are touching one of the very important
aspects of ConTeXt which lot of people here do not or does not want to
understand...
I'm not the one who is living typography or for whom typesetting
and/or writing books is bread & butter...When I did two books some
years ago I was not confident I could make it due to the lack of
up-to-date docs.
I picked two LaTeX books (Kopka/Daly & Companion) which helped me to
publish the books using LaTeX/LyX and I helped the project by sending
donation as well as put credit in the book for all the tools which I
used. (These days I'm TUG member and give some modest donation for TeX
Gyre and LuaTeX projects.)
So, the main variable in equation here is: TIME!
I simply do not have time to research mailing lists, wikis etc. to
find about the 'application', but prefer to buy the book (I'm book guy
accustomed to learn from books) and read it afk to learn basic things.
Then, I might get into mailing list, IRC, forums etc. when faced with
very specific problems.
That's the reason, I believe, why many people are buying books - to
quickly get 'in action' as Manning publishers explain their book
series.
However, it might be that ConTeXt prefer to always stay niche-product
and to, as Haskellers say: "Avoid success at all costs.” :-)
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------
[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 12:13 ` Gour
@ 2010-04-03 12:45 ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 12:56 ` Gour
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Alain Delmotte @ 2010-04-03 12:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi!
Gour a écrit :
03/04 13:42
> Taco> The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create
> Taco> more users (nor even automatically create readers, for that
> Taco> matter).
>
> Hmm, interesting...
>
> If even you think that ConTeXt books are not important (to bring new
> users), then no wonder we do not have even a single one...
I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important; he just said that the books will not automatically increase the use.
03/04 14:13
> However, it might be that ConTeXt prefer to always stay niche-product
> and to, as Haskellers say: "Avoid success at all costs.” :-)
>
Do you know many software in development for which there are plenty of
books.
Further the accusation of somes other that Hans is keeping information
for his work and not documenting it is shocking me.
Hans said that he did develop ConTeXt for *his* work and then opened it
to others to benefit.
And Hans is working for the ConTeXt users free and would prefer, I
think, to use his "secret!!?" tools and go on for his real work.
I also regret that the documentation is not complete and updated for
mkiv, but mkiv is still in development even if it is operational (but
Hans suggest to use mkii for professional work).
Many people here who complain about documentation, also quickly say that
they do not have time to write the asked for book: they have other
things on the fire!! just... like Hans who is developing ConTeXt and do
not have time writing documentation.
What is more important: having a very good program and wait for its
documentation, or a very good documentation and a buggy program???
Thanks to those who develop ConTeXt and answer the questions.
Have a good Eastern time
Alain
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 12:45 ` Alain Delmotte
@ 2010-04-03 12:56 ` Gour
2010-04-03 14:03 ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 16:00 ` Hans Hagen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Gour @ 2010-04-03 12:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 816 bytes --]
On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:45:51 +0200
>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte <esperanto@swing.be> wrote:
Alain> I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important;
Alain> he just said that the books will not automatically increase the
Alain> use.
So you think that having book(s) will leave the number of the ConText
users on the same level or maybe decrease it?
Alain> What is more important: having a very good program and wait for
Alain> its documentation, or a very good documentation and a buggy
Alain> program???
(user) docs brings new users...
(dev) docs brings new devs...
(some) users become devs...
(more) devs increases bus-factor...
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6
----------------------------------------------------------------
[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 12:56 ` Gour
@ 2010-04-03 14:03 ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 19:27 ` Gour
2010-04-03 16:00 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Alain Delmotte @ 2010-04-03 14:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi!
Gour a écrit :
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:45:51 +0200
>
>>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte <esperanto@swing.be> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>
> Alain> I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important;
> Alain> he just said that the books will not automatically increase the
> Alain> use.
>
> So you think that having book(s) will leave the number of the ConText
> users on the same level or maybe decrease it?
>
Can you read a sentence in full and not always cut out what doesn't
interest you, or should I mark every word as important?
I did write "will not automatically", I didn't say that books will leave
the number of users on the same level.
> Alain> What is more important: having a very good program and wait for
> Alain> its documentation, or a very good documentation and a buggy
> Alain> program???
>
> (user) docs brings new users...
> (dev) docs brings new devs...
> (some) users become devs...
> (more) devs increases bus-factor...
>
Sure, once you have a full operational system!
(user) docs brings new users.... who get problems from bugs or
unfinished program... users drop out! No more devs, no more need for books!!
And the publishers will thing like this!
Alain
>
> Sincerely,
> Gour
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 12:56 ` Gour
2010-04-03 14:03 ` Alain Delmotte
@ 2010-04-03 16:00 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Gour
On 3-4-2010 2:56, Gour wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:45:51 +0200
>>>>>>> "Alain" == Alain Delmotte<esperanto@swing.be> wrote:
>
> Alain> I think Taco didn't say *at all* that books are not important;
> Alain> he just said that the books will not automatically increase the
> Alain> use.
>
> So you think that having book(s) will leave the number of the ConText
> users on the same level or maybe decrease it?
i think it's hard to draw conclusions .. for instance if someone has to
use tex once for a thesis he counts as user but will never use tex again
probably
i've seen my share of tex users and am pretty convinced that many users
on this list are non standard in the sense that they like to make their
own look and feel (contrary to using say latex for a one shot document
in a prescribed style) .. in that sense i think that the crowd here is
not the majority of tex users but definitely using it in advanced ways
... just look at mkiv ... i'm really pleased that so many use it already
which helps us a lot with developing luatex as well
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 10:54 ` Andreas Schneider
2010-04-03 12:13 ` Gour
@ 2010-04-03 12:24 ` Hans Hagen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 12:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Andreas Schneider
On 3-4-2010 12:54, Andreas Schneider wrote:
> Michael Saunders wrote:
>
>> Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key: it can be
>> free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
>> only of benefit to Pragma. (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
>> are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
>> in the code and wonder about.)
>
> If you spend some time on the mailing list your probably make the contrary
> observation. There are countless cases where Hans, Taco or Wolfgang
> implement some features to fulfill a request of a user. Nearly every time I
> had a question/problem, a solution came up within _hours_. That's quite
> impressive imho.
> That also means that many solutions can be found by searching the mailing
> list archives ... not few things are also mentioned in the Wiki. And for the
> very basic problems, the "old" manuals still mostly apply.
>
> I do think that it would be pretty awesome to have a central up-to-date
> documentation which I could also recommend to other people I try to convince
> to use ConTeXt instead of Word, Writer or LaTeX. But at least for my
> personal needs I find answers to most of my questions already.
it could be a user effort to document the new stuff posted on the list
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:23 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 9:41 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-03 10:54 ` Andreas Schneider
@ 2010-04-03 11:20 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 11:45 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 12:35 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 12:41 ` Hans Hagen
4 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-04-03 11:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Michael Saunders wrote:
>
> Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
> update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
> strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book. The knowledge
> is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
> communicate it. It's evident that they either can't or won't.
Some feedback on the quality other than 'it sucks' would have helped
enormously.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 11:20 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 11:45 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 12:09 ` Vedran Miletić
2010-04-03 12:55 ` Graham Douglas
0 siblings, 2 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Taco Hoekwater @ 2010-04-03 11:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Michael Saunders wrote:
>>
>> Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
>> update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
>> strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book. The knowledge
>> is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
>> communicate it. It's evident that they either can't or won't.
>
> Some feedback on the quality other than 'it sucks' would have helped
> enormously.
I'll elaborate a bit (excuse me for replying to myself).
Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
about it. Still, at the same time, complaints about the quality of the
documentation have been a constant recurrence on the mailing list.
I know the argument that beginners do not understand the source
well enough to write a manual themselves is valid. But it is equally
true that a person that *does* know the source enough to write the
manual is not the correct person to proofread it.
The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
complainers are in it just for the complaining. This is extremely
demotivating, and so I have almost given up on doing documentation
at all. I mean, what's the point if nobody really cares? There are
many more interesting things to do in life than work for weeks on
end on revising chapters nobody appears willing to read anyway.
Best wishes,
Taco
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 11:45 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 12:09 ` Vedran Miletić
2010-04-03 12:55 ` Graham Douglas
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Vedran Miletić @ 2010-04-03 12:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
2010/4/3 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:
> Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
> interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
> simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
> about it. Still, at the same time, complaints about the quality of the
> documentation have been a constant recurrence on the mailing list.
>
> I know the argument that beginners do not understand the source
> well enough to write a manual themselves is valid. But it is equally
> true that a person that *does* know the source enough to write the
> manual is not the correct person to proofread it.
>
> The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
> complainers are in it just for the complaining. This is extremely
> demotivating, and so I have almost given up on doing documentation
> at all. I mean, what's the point if nobody really cares? There are
> many more interesting things to do in life than work for weeks on
> end on revising chapters nobody appears willing to read anyway.
I'm more than willing to proofread it and offer suggestions, and I'm
pretty certain I'm not the only one.
Regards,
--
Vedran Miletić
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 11:45 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 12:09 ` Vedran Miletić
@ 2010-04-03 12:55 ` Graham Douglas
1 sibling, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Graham Douglas @ 2010-04-03 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Taco wrote:
==============
Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
about it. Still, at the same time, complaints about the quality of the
documentation have been a constant recurrence on the mailing list.
I know the argument that beginners do not understand the source
well enough to write a manual themselves is valid. But it is equally
true that a person that *does* know the source enough to write the
manual is not the correct person to proofread it.
The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
complainers are in it just for the complaining. This is extremely
demotivating, and so I have almost given up on doing documentation
at all. I mean, what's the point if nobody really cares? There are
many more interesting things to do in life than work for weeks on
end on revising chapters nobody appears willing to read anyway.
Best wishes,
Taco
====================
Hi Taco
Just a few words of encouragement :-)
You can be assured that the reference manual is definitely not going
unused. In my current quest to learn LuaTeX I refer to it almost
daily. Just for the record, I work in scientific publishing but my
interest in LuaTeX is purely and completely personal and not at all
related to my "day job".
I too would be willing to help "improve" the manual, especially to
help clarify issues which may be difficult for a beginner (like me!) to
understand. I have some ideas for additional material which could help
to link or bridge a number of key topics/concepts in order to better
understand the "architecture" of LuaTeX. Sort of "glue material".
You are absolutely right to say that, as the person writing the code, it
is extremely difficult to be the one solely responsible for preparing
the manual. Apart from anything, with such a pround and in-depth
knowledge of the innards of TeX it must be extremely difficult for you
to step back and take the perspective of someone who is just stating
out. And, frankly, writing documentation of any sort can be pretty dull.
Furthermore, I think that we'd all benefit from you spending most of
your time doing what you do best: cutting the code!
As someone very new to LuaTeX, I also want to thank you again for the
tremendous work you are doing.
Do please contact me by personal e-mail to discuss the above in more
detail, should you wish to do so.
Warm wishes
Graham
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:23 Michael Saunders
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2010-04-03 11:20 ` Taco Hoekwater
@ 2010-04-03 12:35 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 12:41 ` Hans Hagen
4 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Peter Münster @ 2010-04-03 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 03 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:
> That's the feeling I'm getting. I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> basic things in Context. Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> can't, but there is no way to find out.
Could you please provide a typical example?
> switch and finding it practically impossible. I imagine many people
> try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
> back to LaTeX.
Why do you?
Personal experience: in 2003 I switched from LaTeX to ConTeXt, nearly from
one day to the other, and since then without ever missing LaTeX (ok, only
very rarely ... ;)
Cheers, Peter
--
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 9:23 Michael Saunders
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2010-04-03 12:35 ` Peter Münster
@ 2010-04-03 12:41 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 12:55 ` Andrea Valle
4 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2010-04-03 12:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users; +Cc: Michael Saunders
On 3-4-2010 11:23, Michael Saunders wrote:
> That's the feeling I'm getting. I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> basic things in Context. Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> can't, but there is no way to find out. If the claims that Context is
> better really aren't empty, I would expect a lot of people to switch,
> but I imagine 99% of them are in the same boat I'm in---trying to
> switch and finding it practically impossible. I imagine many people
> try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
> back to LaTeX.
why should users switch .. if something works ok there need to be good
reasons
> Mojca's point, that Context is commercial, may be the key: it can be
> free in name only but if the means of using it are kept secret, it's
> only of benefit to Pragma. (Hans himself mentioned earlier that there
> are many undocumented options for use in-house only that outsiders see
> in the code and wonder about.)
context being commercial? it's costing us more than it brings in and
always had .. and as all code is public and most of the things that can
be done are no secret (e.g. showed at user group meetings)
the snippets of code that i referred to are simply too obscure to
document (and i tend to remove them) .. actually some experimental code
is being used and might evolve
now concerning documentation, you should explain one thing:
- a working day has 8 hours
- add to that weekends and evenings
- consider that writing code takes time
- and answering mails too
- and visiting user group meetings and doing talks there
- and writing some miminal documentation (or history docs or articles)
it looks to me that you're one of the few who either cannot imagine how
much time i (and taco and others) spent on something free and still have
some time left for our normal job as wel as some social time
but maybe i should settle on me being too imperfect and inefficient and
needing 16 hours instead of 8 which leaves me no time for writing
manuals (which would be bad anyway)
> Taco's objection that no one helps with the community project to
> update the reference manual is reasonable, but also predictable:
> strangers cannot simply wander in and write the book. The knowledge
> is in Hans's head (and maybe a few others), and only they can
> communicate it. It's evident that they either can't or won't.
if the knowledge is in my head, how come that wolfgang can answer most
questions (and if he couldn't we'd have a real problem as at least i
have not more time)
> I really would like to see the quality of computer typesetting
> advance, and I was hopeful at hearing about Luatex/Context. I'd love
> to see Context produce better output more easily than LaTeX, but so
> far I'm putting a lot of effort into it to get some very disappointing
> results. One might place some hope in a future (21st c.?) LaTeX 3
> based on Luatex, but that would depend on Hans explaining how Luatex
> works, and it seems doubtful that would ever happen.
well, it has been expressed several times (also at user group meetings)
that latex will not use luatex or at least not the lua in tex ... all
efforts with respect to that are personal initiatives
> For now I'm sticking with Context because I still hope there might be
> some value in it, but it's hard to find.
ok
Hans
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 12:41 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2010-04-03 12:55 ` Andrea Valle
0 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Valle @ 2010-04-03 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1387 bytes --]
the 2 cents of a lurker :)
> if the knowledge is in my head, how come that wolfgang can answer
> most questions (and if he couldn't we'd have a real problem as at
> least i have not more time)
Actually, I don't need so much documentation (well, it's never enough
indeed), I'd say I need a tutorial to be able to know how to get
documentation.
Maybe how to browse code source.
This is just my experience, for what it worth: I always find very good
recipes, and fast help by this wonderful list on specific topics, but
I don't feel to be able to really generalize my knowledge.
It's easy to have good stuff with ConTeXt, much more complicated to
make it do what you want.
Maybe I just need some good lectures I missed. So maybe I need pointers.
Best and thanks for your work
-a-
--------------------------------------------------
Andrea Valle
--------------------------------------------------
CIRMA - DAMS
Università degli Studi di Torino
--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/
--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle
--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/
--> http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle
--> andrea.valle@unito.it
--------------------------------------------------
" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a
lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous."
(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2977 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03 12:14 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 12:16 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Taco:
>> Some feedback on the quality other than 'it sucks' would have helped
>> enormously.
...
> Over the past four years, it has been next to impossible to get people
> interested in the reference manual project, not even for something as
> simple as reading the rewritten chapters and telling me what they think
> about it.
...
> The near total lack of feedback had led me to believe that most
> complainers are in it just for the complaining.
I've been trying to be more constructive than saying 'it sucks'.
I'm not complaining just to complain---I want to get the most I can
out of the software. Please point me to a rewritten chapter you
would like me to look at and I will give it a try.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03 13:51 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 14:29 ` Peter Münster
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
Wolfgang:
Thanks---I'll go over what I can of those this weekend and get back to
you and Taco about them in a few days.
Peter:
> > That's the feeling I'm getting. I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> > basic things in Context. Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> > can't, but there is no way to find out.
>
> Could you please provide a typical example?
Here are ten:
1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
\setupcolumns[n=2,rule=off,distance=20pt]
\setupinmargin[style=\ss,align=outer]
\startcolumns
text text \inmargin{text} text
\stopcolumns
The marginal notes always print to the left of the column. This works
perfectly for the left column, but fails for the right column---they
overprint the text of the left column.
2. leftward protrusion fails
\definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
\setupalign[hanging,hz]
\showgrid % or \showframe
There is no leftward protrusion at all. Everything on the left edge
is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'. Similarly:
3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
Even on the right edge. Hz isn't happening in them either.
4. interactive headers/footers
I'd like to make my header and footer texts hyperlinks to the head
that they point to. I'm trying this:
\setupinteraction[state=start,color=darkgreen,contrastcolor=darkred]
\setupinteractionscreen[option=fit,view=fit]
\newcommand{\gmpt}{\getmarking[pt]}
\newcommand{\swpt}{{\goto{\getmarking[part]}[\gmpt]}}
\setupfootertexts[margin][\rlap\swpt\hfill][\hfill\llap{\getmarking[chapter]}]
(By the way, I'm resorting to this misdirection with the \newcommands
only because Context gives me an error whenever it finds nested
brackets. E.g.,
\newcommand{\swpt}{{\goto{\getmarking[part]}[\getmarking[pt]]}}
would fail.)
Then, at the beginning of a part, I have to add the extra marking to
carry the reference in the 'pt' marker (right?), e.g.:
\part[pt:one]{One}\marking[pt]{pt:one}
But this does not work. (By the way, all of this \defineXYZ,
\setupXYZ, \XYZ stuff is confusing. It seems like there is some kind
of purpose to this pattern of naming, but I can't find what it is.)
So, I experimented:
{\about[pt:one]}
(a particular reference) works
{\about[\gmpt]}
(referring through the marking) fails---so I can find no automatic way
of doing it.
(By the way, why are my footnote markers all green---shouldn't they be
red? could I make them black? Why does clicking on them sometimes
send me to a random page?)
5. footnotes break between pages
How do I stop this?
6. hyphenation between pages.
How do I stop this?
7. opening state
I'd like my document to open in Adobe reader showing one page at a
time (as if "click to open one page at at time" had been pressed).
8. description
I spent the evening trying to get \definedescription to set a
description on a line of its own followed by an explanatory paragraph.
I tried most of the keys/values. I never got anything that looked
good, let alone close to what I wanted. Finally, I spent a few
seconds writing a humble LaTeX-esque line:
\newcommand{\defhead}{\switchtobodyfont[gillSB,12pt]\ss}
\newcommand{\desclist}[2]{\crlf{\noindent\defhead #1\emspace#2}\crlf}
that did the job.
9. \raisebox?
What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text? I just spent
a lot of trial and error to find this:
\inframed[frame=off,offset=.5pt,height=17.3pt]{--}
to raise my en-dashes a little when \setff{ac} (for all caps) didn't
work with one font.
10. problematic characters in grid typesetting.
Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
notch. Is there a better way to deal with this?
> > switch and finding it practically impossible. I imagine many people
> > try, spend a week trying to get it to work and then give up and go
> > back to LaTeX.
>
> Why do you?
Because I think it might be possible to produce better output with
Context than with LaTeX (is this true?). My experience has been quite
different from yours. I got up an running with LaTeX in a week (in
1995), found the documentation clear and almost any effect I wanted
easy to achieve with well-documented packages that never seriously
conflicted. This, on the other hand, is a nightmare.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:51 Michael Saunders
@ 2010-04-03 14:29 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 14:37 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 19:35 ` Marcin Borkowski
2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Peter Münster @ 2010-04-03 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, Apr 03 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:
> > > That's the feeling I'm getting. I'm finding it hard to do a lot of
> > > basic things in Context. Maybe Context can do them and maybe it
> > > can't, but there is no way to find out.
> >
> > Could you please provide a typical example?
>
> Here are ten:
Hello Michael,
Thanks, I see clearer now (my understanding of "basic" was different...).
> 1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
For some of the issues, it would be perhaps a good idea to make proper
bug-reports (with minimal example of course).
Cheers, Peter
P.S.: Please consider fixing or changing your email client: it breaks the
threads.
--
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:51 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 14:29 ` Peter Münster
@ 2010-04-03 14:37 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 19:35 ` Marcin Borkowski
2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Schuster @ 2010-04-03 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Am 03.04.10 15:51, schrieb Michael Saunders:
> 2. leftward protrusion fails
> \definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
> \setupalign[hanging,hz]
> \showgrid % or \showframe
> There is no leftward protrusion at all. Everything on the left edge
> is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'. Similarly:
>
Don't know what you mean, works here.
\definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality]
\usetypescript[modern]
\setupbodyfont[modern]
\showframe
\starttext
\startbuffer
«text»\par
„text“\par
T\par
J\par
\stopbuffer
\getbuffer\setupalign[hanging]\getbuffer
\stoptext
> 3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
> Even on the right edge. Hz isn't happening in them either.
>
You have to enable it separate for notes.
\setupnote[footnote][align={normal,hanging}]
> 5. footnotes break between pages
> How do I stop this?
>
No example, no help!
> 9. \raisebox?
> What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text? I just spent
> a lot of trial and error to find this:
> \inframed[frame=off,offset=.5pt,height=17.3pt]{--}
> to raise my en-dashes a little when \setff{ac} (for all caps) didn't
> work with one font.
>
\raisebox{1ex}{–}
What should ConTeXt do when your font doesn't provide the allcaps feature.
> 10. problematic characters in grid typesetting.
> Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
> notch. Is there a better way to deal with this?
>
You can change the height/depth ratio of a line.
\setupinterlinespace[height=0.6,depth=0.4]
Wolfgang
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 13:51 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 14:29 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 14:37 ` Wolfgang Schuster
@ 2010-04-03 19:35 ` Marcin Borkowski
2 siblings, 0 replies; 97+ messages in thread
From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2010-04-03 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Dnia Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 08:51:03AM -0500, Michael Saunders napisał(a):
> Because I think it might be possible to produce better output with
> Context than with LaTeX (is this true?). My experience has been quite
> different from yours. I got up an running with LaTeX in a week (in
> 1995), found the documentation clear and almost any effect I wanted
> easy to achieve with well-documented packages that never seriously
> conflicted. This, on the other hand, is a nightmare.
Yep. But when you actually run into one of these problems in LaTeX, you
are often more or less left alone - unlike ConTeXt and this list.
A few examples: tikz (for some obscure reason) breaks some functionality
of empheq; align in intertext in align (yes, I needed something like
this!) in AMS-LaTeX doesn't work; hacking the (otherwise excellent)
amsrefs package (or any AMS-LaTeX package, for that matter) is a real
pain, but sometimes you just need it (for example, amsthm may be a
standard, but it just sucks in quite a few respects!).
============
My general thought on this discussion: someone said "why don't people
switch from LaTeX to ConTeXt if ConTeXt is better?". The answer is
obvious to me. First: 99% maths journals accept LaTeX, \epsilon of them
(if any) accept ConTeXt. Second: people still use their LaTeX 2.09
preambles from the nineties, and spending even 30 minutes on learning a
new package (or just not using $$ ... $$ but \[ ... \] or anything)
seems impossible for them. Third: sadly, nearly anyone just does not
care whether the results are beautiful or ugly; people (I'm talking
about mathematicians now) use (La|AMS|Con)TeX(t) not because it is
better than (word|OO), but because that is what journals want.
Personally, I use both LaTeX and ConTeXt: LaTeX when I need something
done quickly or when I want to share some code with others (who usually
use LaTeX), and ConTeXt when I have some time and want to learn
something new (or when I have a ready template which *just works(TM)*.)
Cheers
--
Marcin Borkowski (http://mbork.pl)
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
@ 2010-04-03 23:20 Michael Saunders
2010-04-04 0:39 ` Aditya Mahajan
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Michael Saunders @ 2010-04-03 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ntg-context
> > 1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
>
> For some of the issues, it would be perhaps a good idea to make proper
> bug-reports (with minimal example of course).
In some other venue?
> P.S.: Please consider fixing or changing your email client: it breaks the threads.
Gmail. This is broken?
> > 2. leftward protrusion fails
> > \definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
> > \setupalign[hanging,hz]
> > \showgrid % or \showframe
> > There is no leftward protrusion at all. Everything on the left edge
> > is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'. Similarly:
> >
> Don't know what you mean, works here.
>
> \definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality]
>
> \usetypescript[modern]
> \setupbodyfont[modern]
The only difference I see is that I'm trying to use a different font
than modern:
\usetypescriptfile[type-garamond]
\starttypescript [MTbook]
\definetypeface[MTbook][rm][serif][garamondMD][optical]
...
\stoptypescript
\usetypescript[MTbook]
\setupalign[hanging,hz]
\setupbodyfont[MTbook,12pt]
So, leftward protrusion only works with Latin Modern?
> > 3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
> > Even on the right edge. Hz isn't happening in them either.
> >
> You have to enable it separate for notes.
> \setupnote[footnote][align={normal,hanging}]
I got rightward protrusion with that, but it looks like no hz.
Why are the key-values different? I also tried {quality,quality} and
got nothing.
> > 5. footnotes break between pages
> > How do I stop this?
> >
> No example, no help!
Imagine:
<one page full of lorem ipsum... containing \footnote{half-page of
lorem ipsum...} >
The footnote will begin on page one, break halfway through, and
continue on the following page. I want to prevent footnotes from
breaking in this way.
If you really need to see 1.5 pages of concrete "lorem ipsum" posted
to understand the problem, I can provide it.
> > 9. \raisebox?
> > What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text? I just spent
> > ...
> \raisebox{1ex}{?}
When I try:
\raisebox{1ex}{--}
Context stops on the error:
"A <box> was supposed to be here
\raisebox{1ex}{
--}"
>
> What should ConTeXt do when your font doesn't provide the allcaps feature.
Some of the punctuation (e.g., hyphens, en- and em-dashes) should be
raised slightly and perhaps given a little extra spacing. The feature
is in my serif font, but not in my sans, hence my effort to correct
this.
> > 10. problematic characters in grid typesetting.
> > Unless I set grid=verytolerant, my 'Q' knocks the next line down a
> > notch. Is there a better way to deal with this?
> >
> You can change the height/depth ratio of a line.
> \setupinterlinespace[height=0.6,depth=0.4]
I must remember to put that convenient command before every majescule Q.
By the way---I am thrilled to hear of and very eager to see Idris's book!
> But maybe a select audience of test-able volunteers will be the way to go...
I volunteer to be testable.
> Yep. But when you actually run into one of these problems in LaTeX, you
> are often more or less left alone - unlike ConTeXt and this list.
I'm pursuing it with the hope of more beautiful results, but I'm not
getting my problems solved here so far.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
* Re: The ConTeXt book
2010-04-03 23:20 Michael Saunders
@ 2010-04-04 0:39 ` Aditya Mahajan
2010-04-04 7:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster
0 siblings, 1 reply; 97+ messages in thread
From: Aditya Mahajan @ 2010-04-04 0:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
On Sat, 3 Apr 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:
>>> 1. columns and marginal notes conflict:
>>
>> For some of the issues, it would be perhaps a good idea to make proper
>> bug-reports (with minimal example of course).
>
> In some other venue?
In a separate thread, with a minimal example, that one can copy-paste and
see the error. Trying to guess what is wrong is difficult.
>> P.S.: Please consider fixing or changing your email client: it breaks the threads.
>
> Gmail. This is broken?
For some reason, none of your responses contain a References: header. So,
threading gets broken. Normally, gmail works fine, so I don't know why the
headers are beings stripped in this case.
>>> 2. leftward protrusion fails
>>> \definefontfeature[...][default][...,protrusion=quality,expansion=quality]
>>> \setupalign[hanging,hz]
>>> \showgrid % or \showframe
>>> There is no leftward protrusion at all. Everything on the left edge
>>> is flush with the margin, even 'T' and 'J'. Similarly:
>>>
>> Don't know what you mean, works here.
>>
>> \definefontfeature[default][default][protrusion=quality]
>>
>> \usetypescript[modern]
>> \setupbodyfont[modern]
>
> The only difference I see is that I'm trying to use a different font
> than modern:
>
> \usetypescriptfile[type-garamond]
> \starttypescript [MTbook]
> \definetypeface[MTbook][rm][serif][garamondMD][optical]
> ...
These details are important. Also a link to which Garamond you are using.
> \stoptypescript
>
> \usetypescript[MTbook]
> \setupalign[hanging,hz]
> \setupbodyfont[MTbook,12pt]
>
> So, leftward protrusion only works with Latin Modern?
>
>
>>> 3. protrusion fails in footnotes:
>>> Even on the right edge. Hz isn't happening in them either.
>>>
>> You have to enable it separate for notes.
>
>> \setupnote[footnote][align={normal,hanging}]
>
> I got rightward protrusion with that, but it looks like no hz.
> Why are the key-values different? I also tried {quality,quality} and
> got nothing.
Again, a minimal example is needed.
>>> 5. footnotes break between pages
>>> How do I stop this?
>>>
>> No example, no help!
>
> Imagine:
>
> <one page full of lorem ipsum... containing \footnote{half-page of
> lorem ipsum...} >
>
> The footnote will begin on page one, break halfway through, and
> continue on the following page. I want to prevent footnotes from
> breaking in this way.
> If you really need to see 1.5 pages of concrete "lorem ipsum" posted
> to understand the problem, I can provide it.
I don't know this
>>> 9. \raisebox?
>>> What is the proper way to raise or lower a bit of text? I just spent
>>> ...
>
>> \raisebox{1ex}{?}
>
> When I try:
>
> \raisebox{1ex}{--}
>
> Context stops on the error:
>
> "A <box> was supposed to be here
>
> \raisebox{1ex}{
> --}"
Provide a box :-) \raisebox{1ex}{\hbox{--}} (untested)
>> Yep. But when you actually run into one of these problems in LaTeX, you
>> are often more or less left alone - unlike ConTeXt and this list.
>
> I'm pursuing it with the hope of more beautiful results, but I'm not
> getting my problems solved here so far.
http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=minxampl
Aditya
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 97+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-04-05 20:53 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 97+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2010-04-01 17:08 The ConTeXt book Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-01 17:25 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-01 17:29 ` Michail Vidiassov
2010-04-01 17:35 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-02 9:49 ` Arthur Reutenauer
2010-04-02 9:57 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-02 10:08 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 11:18 ` John Haltiwanger
2010-04-02 11:40 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 12:20 ` John Haltiwanger
2010-04-02 12:25 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-02 12:39 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-02 22:32 ` Russell Urquhart
2010-04-03 5:37 ` Gour
2010-04-03 6:47 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-04-03 7:47 ` Mojca Miklavec
2010-04-03 11:32 ` Gour
2010-04-03 6:54 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 11:42 ` Gour
2010-04-03 8:51 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 11:48 ` Gour
2010-04-03 12:30 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 8:59 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-03 9:15 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 9:20 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 12:03 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:01 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:09 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 13:31 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:36 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:42 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:49 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:53 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 13:56 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 14:14 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:02 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:16 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 14:42 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 14:44 ` (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book) Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 14:55 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 15:04 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 15:11 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 16:44 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 16:49 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 17:09 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 17:15 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 17:19 ` luigi scarso
2010-04-03 17:22 ` Andrea Valle
2010-04-03 17:30 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 18:33 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-03 18:34 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 18:38 ` Martin Schröder
2010-04-03 16:11 ` The ConTeXt book Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 16:09 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 9:47 ` Vedran Miletić
2010-04-03 12:07 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-02 14:12 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-02 14:16 ` Matthias Weber
[not found] ` <h2w6faad9f01004021355xa0e88f8ew8fad640bb072c0bd@mail.gmail.com>
2010-04-02 21:08 ` InteractionsBar - another shot Matthias Weber
2010-04-03 14:08 ` Willi Egger
2010-04-03 16:14 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-04 22:59 ` Matthias Weber
2010-04-05 20:53 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-01 17:32 ` The ConTeXt book luigi scarso
2010-04-01 17:40 ` Sebastien Mengin
2010-04-01 17:43 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-01 19:38 ` Alan BRASLAU
2010-04-01 19:58 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-01 18:45 ` Graham Douglas
2010-04-03 9:23 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 9:41 ` Patrick Gundlach
2010-04-03 12:38 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 10:54 ` Andreas Schneider
2010-04-03 12:13 ` Gour
2010-04-03 12:45 ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 12:56 ` Gour
2010-04-03 14:03 ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 19:27 ` Gour
2010-04-03 19:48 ` Alain Delmotte
2010-04-03 16:00 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 12:24 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 11:20 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 11:45 ` Taco Hoekwater
2010-04-03 12:09 ` Vedran Miletić
2010-04-03 12:55 ` Graham Douglas
2010-04-03 12:35 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 12:41 ` Hans Hagen
2010-04-03 12:55 ` Andrea Valle
2010-04-03 12:14 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 12:16 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 13:51 Michael Saunders
2010-04-03 14:29 ` Peter Münster
2010-04-03 14:37 ` Wolfgang Schuster
2010-04-03 19:35 ` Marcin Borkowski
2010-04-03 23:20 Michael Saunders
2010-04-04 0:39 ` Aditya Mahajan
2010-04-04 7:33 ` Wolfgang Schuster
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).