Re: Re: [OS X TeX] TeX run : 8

Re: Re: [OS X TeX] TeX run : 8

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

>  Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>  > After playing a bit with minimal examples I think the "bug" has to do
>  > with the project structure. Here comes a very minimal example that
>  > *still* runs 8 times under Mac (2 times under Win)! Why?
>  >
>  > Given a main TEST.tex file and besides that a PARTS folder containing
>  > the files ONE.tex and TWO.tex :
>  >
>  >
>  > TEST.tex
>  > \startproject TEST
>  > \startfrontmatter
>  > \component PARTS/ONE.tex
>  > \component PARTS/TWO.tex
>  > \stopfrontmatter
>  > \stopproject
>  >
>  >
>  > ONE.tex
>  > \startcomponent ONE
>  > text
>  > \stopcomponent
>  >
>  > TWO.tex
>  > \startcomponent TWO
>  > text
>  > \stopcomponent
>
>  this runs normal here; (but your big zip didn't as mentioned in a 
>previous mail)
>
>  Hans


How many runs do you have under Mac OS X?
And what is your setup for Mac: Gerben's tex.ii2 plus your recent cont-tmf.zip?

Steffen

Re: Re: [OS X TeX] TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

> How many runs do you have under Mac OS X?

dunno, the mac is not updated yet and actually not sitting on my desk but in my 
library; best let patrick and/or adam test that since they normally have the 
latest (alpha/beta/current) versions


Hans

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Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello Hans, Steffen and all the others involved,

> dunno, the mac is not updated yet and actually not sitting on my desk
> but in my library; best let patrick and/or adam test that since they
> normally have the latest (alpha/beta/current) versions

I have tried your small file (the one you have sent me) an a vanilla
tetex 3.0 and an older texlive (I had to dig out my iBook -- anybody
wants to buy a used iBook?) and both were two runs.

I do not use Gerben's tex, so we cannot really compare the results.

Patrick


(sorry for not reading this earlier)
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Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello again,

> I have tried your small file (the one you have sent me) an a vanilla
> tetex 3.0 and an older texlive (I had to dig out my iBook -- anybody
> wants to buy a used iBook?) and both were two runs.

Ah, not so fast, Patrick. I can reproduce your problem:

$ ls -lR
.:
total 4
drwxr-xr-x    4 pg       pg            136 Mar  2 20:27 PARTS
-rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg            117 Mar  2 20:28 TEST.tex

./PARTS:
total 8
-rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 ONE.tex
-rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 TWO.tex

(so setup is TEST.tex in all capitals and ONE.tex and TWO.tex in
subdir, tetex 3.0). Now I run

texexec --pdf test.tex

(lowercase test.tex !)

and I get:

[...]

 utility file analysis : another run needed
               TeX run : 8


[...]


Note that the standard OS X filesystem is case preserving, but not
case sensitive when accessing a file. So accessing test.tex would be
happy with a file called TEST.tex. It is possible to create a pure
case sensitive HFS+ filesystem, but it isn't necessary to reproduce
the problem. (It would probably avoid it, though).


Patrick
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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:

>>I have tried your small file (the one you have sent me) an a vanilla
>>tetex 3.0 and an older texlive (I had to dig out my iBook -- anybody
>>wants to buy a used iBook?) and both were two runs.
> 
> 
> Ah, not so fast, Patrick. I can reproduce your problem:
> 
> $ ls -lR
> .:
> total 4
> drwxr-xr-x    4 pg       pg            136 Mar  2 20:27 PARTS
> -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg            117 Mar  2 20:28 TEST.tex
> 
> ./PARTS:
> total 8
> -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 ONE.tex
> -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 TWO.tex
> 
> (so setup is TEST.tex in all capitals and ONE.tex and TWO.tex in
> subdir, tetex 3.0). Now I run
> 
> texexec --pdf test.tex
> 
> (lowercase test.tex !)
> 
> and I get:
> 
> [...]
> 
>  utility file analysis : another run needed
>                TeX run : 8
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> Note that the standard OS X filesystem is case preserving, but not
> case sensitive when accessing a file. So accessing test.tex would be
> happy with a file called TEST.tex. It is possible to create a pure
> case sensitive HFS+ filesystem, but it isn't necessary to reproduce
> the problem. (It would probably avoid it, though).

ah, i explicitly tried both lower and uppercase variants of the sample files, 
but windows does not care, i.e. all access deep down in the system is (afaik) 
cap. So i saw no difference here.

so, what do you recomend, renaming the file to lowercase?

Hans



-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello Hans,

[...]

> ah, i explicitly tried both lower and uppercase variants of the sample
> files, but windows does not care, i.e. all access deep down in the
> system is (afaik) cap. So i saw no difference here.

> so, what do you recomend, renaming the file to lowercase?

Well, my mail was sent too soon. The problems also arises without
the uppercase variant. So currently I doubt that it has to do with the
naming alone. 

Patrick

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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Adam Lindsay]

Patrick Gundlach said this at Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:46:05 +0100:

>
>> dunno, the mac is not updated yet and actually not sitting on my desk
>> but in my library; best let patrick and/or adam test that since they
>> normally have the latest (alpha/beta/current) versions

I can't add much to this discussion, other than I get 1 < n < 9 runs with
Steffen's minimal test case as well. I'm running Hans's minimal distro
and the latest alpha. (On my new Mac mini. :)

[And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Adam Lindsay wrote:
> Patrick Gundlach said this at Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:46:05 +0100:
> 
> 
>>>dunno, the mac is not updated yet and actually not sitting on my desk
>>>but in my library; best let patrick and/or adam test that since they
>>>normally have the latest (alpha/beta/current) versions
> 
> 
> I can't add much to this discussion, other than I get 1 < n < 9 runs with
> Steffen's minimal test case as well. I'm running Hans's minimal distro
> and the latest alpha. (On my new Mac mini. :)
> 
> [And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]

if it runs ok on your old box ... is it related to the version of perl?

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Adam Lindsay]

Hans Hagen said this at Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:38:11 +0100:

>> [And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]
>
>if it runs ok on your old box ... is it related to the version of perl?

Old box is in for repair--can't test it. :/
It was a slower processor, with heavier TeX trees, and a full (fragmented
disk)--no real surprise that a virgin setup on a new machine is nicer.

Anyway, on both machines, Perl is stock 5.8.1-RC3, nothing modified from
what Apple ships with the current OS.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello Adam,


[...]

> [And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]

Don't say that ;-). I just got a new PowerBook.

Patrick (and happy with it)
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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Adam Lindsay]

Patrick Gundlach said this at Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:05:15 +0100:

>> [And boy, it sure is faster than the setup I had on my PowerBook!]
>
>Don't say that ;-). I just got a new PowerBook.

My _two-year-old_ 12" PowerBook. The Mac mini'd be just a shade slower
than the current (very attractive) generation of PBs.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept.     atl@comp.lancs.ac.uk
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21        +44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK             Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: Re: [OS X TeX] TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Steffen Wolfrum wrote:

> How many runs do you have under Mac OS X?

ps. it's on my agenda to have a mini mac with decent keyboard on my desk 
(instead of the cumbersome 17 inch laptop) sharing the large display i use on my 
workhorse laptop; at that time i'll also sync the mac versions of context

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Steffen Wolfrum]

Hi Patrick,



Patrick Gundlach <patrick@gundla.ch> wrote:

>  Hello again,
>
>  > I have tried your small file (the one you have sent me) an a vanilla
>  > tetex 3.0 and an older texlive (I had to dig out my iBook -- anybody
>  > wants to buy a used iBook?) and both were two runs.
>
>  Ah, not so fast, Patrick. I can reproduce your problem:
>
>  $ ls -lR
>  .:
>  total 4
>  drwxr-xr-x    4 pg       pg            136 Mar  2 20:27 PARTS
>  -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg            117 Mar  2 20:28 TEST.tex
>
>  ./PARTS:
>  total 8
>  -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 ONE.tex
>  -rw-r--r--    1 pg       pg             40 Mar  2 20:27 TWO.tex
>
>  (so setup is TEST.tex in all capitals and ONE.tex and TWO.tex in
>  subdir, tetex 3.0). Now I run
>
>  texexec --pdf test.tex
>
>  (lowercase test.tex !)
>
>  and I get:
>
>  [...]
>
>   utility file analysis : another run needed
>                 TeX run : 8
>
>
>  [...]
>
>
>  Note that the standard OS X filesystem is case preserving, but not
>  case sensitive when accessing a file. So accessing test.tex would be
>  happy with a file called TEST.tex. It is possible to create a pure
>  case sensitive HFS+ filesystem, but it isn't necessary to reproduce
>  the problem. (It would probably avoid it, though).
>
>
>  Patrick



So I made a new setup:
new files/folders and every names lowercase (folders, files, references).

The first time I executed
texexec --pdf test.tex
it looked good: 2 runs!
Then I executed
texexec --pdf test.tex
once more and now it was 8 runs again!

Does this make sense?

Steffen

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello Steffen,


it is starting to make fun!

ok, clean setup, all lowercase. 8 runs. Now texutil --purgeall. 2
runs. purge again. 8 runs. purge again. 2 runs. No purge. 8 runs.
Purge. 8 runs. 2 runs. purge. 4 runs (!!!). purge. 2 runs. purge. 8
runs. 3 runs. purge. 5 runs. purge. 5 runs. purge. 8 runs.


-> 8, 2, 8, 2, 8, 8, 2, 4, 2, 8, 3, 5, 5, 8

I'll stop here. This looks a bit like the fibonacci numbers to me, but
the 4 must be an error.


Is it full moon?


Patrick

(no need to put me in cc anymore, I woke up)

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:

> ok, clean setup, all lowercase. 8 runs. Now texutil --purgeall. 2
> runs. purge again. 8 runs. purge again. 2 runs. No purge. 8 runs.
> Purge. 8 runs. 2 runs. purge. 4 runs (!!!). purge. 2 runs. purge. 8
> runs. 3 runs. purge. 5 runs. purge. 5 runs. purge. 8 runs.
> 
> 
> -> 8, 2, 8, 2, 8, 8, 2, 4, 2, 8, 3, 5, 5, 8

can you patch texexec to provide some info about the file compare? (filesizes or 
so)

what puzzles me is that the tui/tuo does not change

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 669 bytes --]

Hello Hans,


[...]

> can you patch texexec to provide some info about the file compare?
> (filesizes or so)

done, see attachment.


> what puzzles me is that the tui/tuo does not change

the .tuo file changes. 


% TeXUtil 9.0.0 - ConTeXt / PRAGMA ADE 1992-2004 / Files
%
% parts/one.tex (2)
% parts/two.tex (2)
% test (2)

% TeXUtil 9.0.0 - ConTeXt / PRAGMA ADE 1992-2004 / Files
%
% parts/two.tex (2)
% parts/one.tex (2)
% test (2)

% TeXUtil 9.0.0 - ConTeXt / PRAGMA ADE 1992-2004 / Files
%
% parts/two.tex (2)
% test (2)
% parts/one.tex (2)

% TeXUtil 9.0.0 - ConTeXt / PRAGMA ADE 1992-2004 / Files
%
% parts/two.tex (2)
% test (2)
% parts/one.tex (2)


Patrick

[-- Attachment #2: md5sum --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 4702 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 44 bytes --]


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[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 139 bytes --]

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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:
> Hello Hans,
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
>>can you patch texexec to provide some info about the file compare?
>>(filesizes or so)
> 
> 
> done, see attachment.

now this is weird!

% parts/one.tex (2)
% parts/two.tex (2)
% test (2)

% parts/two.tex (2)
% parts/one.tex (2)
% test (2)

% parts/two.tex (2)
% test (2)
% parts/one.tex (2)

it looks like some flushing problem of write nodes, can you do the same with the 
tui file?

the code in context that does this is:

   \def\registerfileinfo[#1#2]#3%
     {\writestatus\m!systems{#1#2 file #3 at line \the\inputlineno}%
      \immediatewriteutility{f #1 {#3}}}

does it run ok when you define this as:

   \def\registerfileinfo[#1]#2{}

if so, it may be a problem in the tex binary (immediate writes not flushed ok)

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello Hans,


do you still want me to try this? 


> it looks like some flushing problem of write nodes, can you do the
> same with the tui file?
>
> the code in context that does this is:
>
>    \def\registerfileinfo[#1#2]#3%
>      {\writestatus\m!systems{#1#2 file #3 at line \the\inputlineno}%
>       \immediatewriteutility{f #1 {#3}}}
>
> does it run ok when you define this as:
>
>    \def\registerfileinfo[#1]#2{}
>
> if so, it may be a problem in the tex binary (immediate writes not flushed ok)

-- 
ConTeXt wiki: http://contextgarden.net

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hi,

I don't know enough of perl, perhaps the hash %Files should be sorted before
output (texutil.pl)?


sub FlushFiles
  { print TUO "%\n" . "% $Program / Files\n" . "%\n" ;
    foreach $File (keys %Files)
      { print TUO "% $File ($Files{$File})\n" }

Patrick
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ConTeXt wiki: http://contextgarden.net

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello again,

> I don't know enough of perl, perhaps the hash %Files should be sorted before
> output (texutil.pl)?

good point, Patrick :-)

this does the trick:

sub FlushFiles
  { print TUO "%\n" . "% $Program / Files\n" . "%\n" ;
    foreach $File (sort keys %Files)
      { print TUO "% $File ($Files{$File})\n" }
    print TUO "%\n" ;
    $NOfFiles = keys %Files ;

(in texutil.pl, see the _sort_ keys %Files)

But I don't know if this is a good solution.

Patrick
(no more "8 runs")
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Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Hans Hagen]

Patrick Gundlach wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I don't know enough of perl, perhaps the hash %Files should be sorted before
> output (texutil.pl)?
> 
> sub FlushFiles
>   { print TUO "%\n" . "% $Program / Files\n" . "%\n" ;
>     foreach $File (keys %Files)
>       { print TUO "% $File ($Files{$File})\n" }

That could be a way out, but before that i want you to check the order in the 
tui files.

[if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then it looks 
like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each os]

Hans


-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re[2]: Re: TeX run : 8

[Giuseppe Bilotta]

Thursday, March 3, 2005 Hans Hagen wrote:

> Patrick Gundlach wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I don't know enough of perl, perhaps the hash %Files should be sorted before
>> output (texutil.pl)?
>> 
>> sub FlushFiles
>>   { print TUO "%\n" . "% $Program / Files\n" . "%\n" ;
>>     foreach $File (keys %Files)
>>       { print TUO "% $File ($Files{$File})\n" }

> That could be a way out, but before that i want you to check the order in the
> tui files.

> [if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then it looks
> like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each os]

http://search.cpan.org/~nwclark/perl-5.8.6/pod/perlfaq4.pod#Data:_Hashes_(Associative_Arrays)

-- 
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Taco Hoekwater]

Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:
 >>
>>[if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then it looks
>>like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each os]

The most relevant bit of documentation is this:

http://search.cpan.org/dist/perl/pod/perl581delta.pod#Hash_Randomisation

So yes, it is perl, and it is on purpose.

There might be more locations in ConTeXt's perl scripts
that need an additional 'sort'.

Greetings, Taco

Re: Re: TeX run : 8

[Peter Münster]

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:
>  >>
> >>[if it's indeed the perl hash, (maybe i should make it an array), then it looks
> >>like perl uses a different hash strategy each run and on each os]
> 
> The most relevant bit of documentation is this:
> 
> http://search.cpan.org/dist/perl/pod/perl581delta.pod#Hash_Randomisation
> 
> So yes, it is perl, and it is on purpose.
> 
> There might be more locations in ConTeXt's perl scripts
> that need an additional 'sort'.

Hello,
for those, who don't want to update:
export PERL_HASH_SEED=0
in $HOME/.profile works very nicely.

Greetings, Peter

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http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/

Re: TeX run : 8

[Patrick Gundlach]

Hello Peter,

> for those, who don't want to update:
> export PERL_HASH_SEED=0
> in $HOME/.profile works very nicely.

is this reliable?

Patrick
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