From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/41681 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jesse Alama Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: distro info Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:35:30 -0700 Message-ID: References: <6faad9f00806100858m332b0c18w1726368830a29a3c@mail.gmail.com> <46D24799-264A-4AFE-9089-A63F4226985C@mpq.mpg.de> <8687593C-CFC0-4F6A-9EA2-091FC7CBB2CC@di.unito.it> <6faad9f00806110905q32b9c142t6af44f2edf85adbf@mail.gmail.com> <4F0FF6A1-CBA4-455D-80A5-785E59607044@di.unito.it> <181B45FF-223C-4CBB-8909-F4C9BB2E0C5B@fiee.net> <653FF68A-0886-4ECA-A87C-36D95138437A@uni-bonn.de> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1213461427 11477 80.91.229.12 (14 Jun 2008 16:37:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:37:07 +0000 (UTC) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sat Jun 14 18:37:50 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl ([131.211.172.88] helo=ronja.ntg.nl) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1K7Yl7-0005eL-E4 for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:37:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8701B1FDE8; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:36:55 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 15504-01-6; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:36:16 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.vet.uu.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184211FDD9; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:36:16 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466511FDD1 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:36:15 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from ronja.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 15505-02-3 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:35:38 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from smtp-roam.Stanford.EDU (smtp-roam.Stanford.EDU [171.64.10.152]) by ronja.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125C81FDD9 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:35:35 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (calaveras.Stanford.EDU [128.12.173.46]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp-roam.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m5EGZVfQ029208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:35:33 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Thomas A. Schmitz's message of "Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:35:09 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.110007 (No Gnus v0.7) Emacs/22.2 (darwin) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:41681 Archived-At: "Thomas A. Schmitz" writes: > On Jun 14, 2008, at 1:07 PM, Oliver Buerschaper wrote: > >> Actually, I strongly disagree with the opinion that the only way to >> properly interact with TeX is via the command line. >> >> Counter example: in Mac application development your IDE of choice >> will almost certainly be Xcode. Although it delegates the entire >> compilation process to gcc you *never* ever see the command line. And >> there's no need to. All errors and warnings output by gcc are >> intercepted and passed on to you via the graphical IDE and you won't >> lose a tiny bit of information. In fact you gain a lot when trying to >> track down a problem ... >> >> Furthermore, in my humble opinion interaction with TeX should >> concentrate on programming the actual typesetting language and not on >> fumbling around with dozens of configuration files ... for instance, >> if you develop applications you wouldn't want to reconfigure your >> compiler twice a week either but rather focus on the source code *you* >> write. >> >> Oliver > > Who said that "the only way to properly interact with TeX is via the > command line"? What I said is: you can provide all the GUI tools you > want, at some point (and this will be rather sooner than later) > problems will crop up, and these problems will be impossible to > resolve if you don't want to use the command line, don't want to learn > about PATH settings, don't want to learn about where configuration > files go and what they do. This may be different in, say 10 years, but > it would be misleading to pretend that it is different today. TeXLive > 2008 is just being tested, and in this regard, it's no better than its > predecessors. Unless and until we have systems which will be easier to > maintain, users who expect to be able to stay away from the CLI are > bound to be disappointed. > > Your example about Apple's Xcode actually proves my point: I said that > if you can afford to throw a couple of million $ and a dozen > programmers at this, it is actually feasible (but will still take > time). Apple has done just that; the Xcode IDE hasn't been built by > volunteers in their spare time, now has it? So far, nobody has done > anything similar for TeX, and I had the impression that the volunteer > programmers who are actively contributing to it seem more interested > in adding new features and improving the code than in adding a > colorful pointy-clicky interface. But of course my impression could be > wrong and someone is already building such a GUI as we speak... > > As for "fumbling around with dozens of configuration files": such > exaggerations are not very helpful in this discussion. Let me add that I have no aversion at all to using command line tools. The basis for my own comments in this thread do not lie in a preference for graphical tools, but rather for a straightforward way to stay up-to-date with the whole of ConTeXt in a way that ctxtools does not currently provide. A command-line interface for that would be great, and so would a graphical tool. I'm of course familiar with the minimals, but what's unpleasant about that approach to staying current with ConTeXt is that one has to put aside other installations. What I mean, more specifically, is that TeXlive is ignored. As far as I can see, I can't both use latex and the minimal ConTeXt in the same shell, because if I want to use the latter I can't use the former. For me an optimal solution would be a tool like, say, ctxtools --updatecontext, that combines downloading the latest binaries, fonts, and TeX code into one package, and overwrites the old contents in my TeXlive tree. A command-line tool to do that would certainly be appreciated. The discussion of environment variables leads me to wonder: is there a definitive discussion of these? I'm familiar with the TeXlive documentation, but what more should users know to gain a mastery of these variables in connection with ConTeXt? Jesse -- Jesse Alama (alama@stanford.edu) ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________