* %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ?
@ 2008-01-31 9:27 Steffen Wolfrum
2008-01-31 12:44 ` Mr Dietrich Rordorf / MDPI
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Wolfrum @ 2008-01-31 9:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Hi,
I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left
to the number "% 18".
Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/
TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect
placement of the percentage sign".
Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ??
Thanks,
Steffen
___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!
maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net
archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___________________________________________________________________________________
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 9:27 %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? Steffen Wolfrum @ 2008-01-31 12:44 ` Mr Dietrich Rordorf / MDPI 2008-01-31 15:08 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 22:35 ` Peter Münster 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Mr Dietrich Rordorf / MDPI @ 2008-01-31 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Dear Steffen, Arabic is read from right to left, so the the % sign in front of the number, if you read from right to left, becomes actually after the number. One of my co-worker originally from Lebanon confirmed this. Kind regards, Dietrich -- Mr. Dietrich Rordorf MDPI Center Matthaeusstrasse 11 CH-4057 Basel Switzerland E-mail: rordorf@mdpi.org Skype: d.rordorf Tel. +41 61 683 77 34 (office) Tel. +41 76 561 41 83 (mobile) Fax +41 61 302 89 18 Steffen Wolfrum wrote: > Hi, > > I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left > to the number "% 18". > Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/ > TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect > placement of the percentage sign". > > Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? > > > Thanks, > > Steffen > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 9:27 %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? Steffen Wolfrum 2008-01-31 12:44 ` Mr Dietrich Rordorf / MDPI @ 2008-01-31 15:08 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 15:48 ` Steffen Wolfrum ` (2 more replies) 2008-01-31 22:35 ` Peter Münster 2 siblings, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:27:16 -0700, Steffen Wolfrum <context@st.estfiles.de> wrote: > Hi, > > I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left > to the number "% 18". > Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/ > TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect > placement of the percentage sign". > > Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more than one convention for dealing with mathematical directionality. Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script world. These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 15:08 ` Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 15:48 ` Steffen Wolfrum 2008-01-31 15:51 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 20:25 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Steffen Wolfrum @ 2008-01-31 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 31.01.2008 um 16:08 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid: >> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? > > It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among > Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more > than one > convention for dealing with mathematical directionality. > > Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script > world. That's what I suspected ... > These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of > Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. Yes!! > Best wishes > Idris Thanks, Steffen ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 15:08 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 15:48 ` Steffen Wolfrum @ 2008-01-31 15:51 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 20:25 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:08:45 -0700, Idris Samawi Hamid <ishamid@colostate.edu> wrote: > Both languages are left-to-right, RTL, of course... I -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 15:08 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 15:48 ` Steffen Wolfrum 2008-01-31 15:51 ` Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 20:25 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2008-01-31 22:54 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2008-01-31 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Am 2008-01-31 um 16:08 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid: >> I have often seen (in arabic newpapers) the percentage sign set left >> to the number "% 18". >> Recently I read an article (http://sehstoerung.sonance.net/pdfs/ >> TitusNemeth_dissertation.pdf) that calls this "... the incorrect >> placement of the percentage sign". >> >> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? > > It really depends on where you live. In Persian, 18% is common, among > Arabs, %18. Both languages are left-to-right, but there is more > than one > convention for dealing with mathematical directionality. > > Some of these issues are still being worked about in the Arabic-script > world. > > These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of > Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. Hm, reminds me of conventions where you place currency symbols - depending on if you live in a economist/accountant surrounding... Do you think some automated handling of such is possible at all? I know nothing about Arabic script, of course... Greetlings from Lake Constance! Hraban --- http://www.fiee.net/texnique/ http://wiki.contextgarden.net https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 20:25 ` Henning Hraban Ramm @ 2008-01-31 22:54 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 22:59 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 22:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:25:45 -0700, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net> wrote: >>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? >> These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of >> Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. > > Hm, reminds me of conventions where you place currency symbols - > depending on if you live in a economist/accountant surrounding... > > Do you think some automated handling of such is possible at all? One can already handle this sort of thing using Omega Translation Processes, which luaTeX supports. For example, there is an otp which makes sure that numeral-strings are always treated as LR, otherwise 1234 would come out as 4321. I suppose translating these rules into lua and/or opentype rules should be easy... Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 22:54 ` Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 22:59 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-31 22:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Idris Samawi Hamid wrote: > On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:25:45 -0700, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net> > wrote: > >>>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? > >>> These subtlties need to be addressed for proper high-level handling of >>> Arabic-script in ConTeXt/mkiv. >> Hm, reminds me of conventions where you place currency symbols - >> depending on if you live in a economist/accountant surrounding... >> >> Do you think some automated handling of such is possible at all? > > One can already handle this sort of thing using Omega Translation > Processes, which luaTeX supports. For example, there is an otp which makes > sure that numeral-strings are always treated as LR, otherwise 1234 would > come out as 4321. I suppose translating these rules into lua and/or > opentype rules should be easy... i can add this to the arab analyzer (just inject direction nodes around numbers) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 9:27 %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? Steffen Wolfrum 2008-01-31 12:44 ` Mr Dietrich Rordorf / MDPI 2008-01-31 15:08 ` Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 22:35 ` Peter Münster 2008-01-31 22:42 ` Hans Hagen 2008-01-31 23:07 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Peter Münster @ 2008-01-31 22:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: > > Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? Hello, I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask for "%81 or 18%" ? Cheers, Peter -- http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 22:35 ` Peter Münster @ 2008-01-31 22:42 ` Hans Hagen 2008-01-31 23:11 ` Idris Samawi Hamid ` (2 more replies) 2008-01-31 23:07 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 1 sibling, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-31 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Peter Münster wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: >> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? > > Hello, > > I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask > for "%81 or 18%" ? interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a tendency to go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 22:42 ` Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-31 23:11 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-02-01 2:50 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2008-02-01 7:07 ` Otared Kavian 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 23:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:42:53 -0700, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote: > interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about > > [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] > > [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] IIRC Persian and Arabic have diffferent rules; I need to research this again (check urdu too)... will report back. Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 22:42 ` Hans Hagen 2008-01-31 23:11 ` Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-02-01 2:50 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2008-02-01 9:22 ` Hans Hagen 2008-02-01 7:07 ` Otared Kavian 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2008-02-01 2:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users > [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] > > [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] > > for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed I think you're mistaken about the flexibility of human mind. Eight digits may look like a lot, but that's really not a long string compared to an average line width, and it does not take a lot of effort for the reader to look ahead for the start of the number. And eight digits is probably the longest it gets anyway (OK, maybe 12, but a 15-digit number would be difficult to read for anyone in any language). Actually you should look at it as a cultural difference, even if it interferes with scientific notation (and if you think about it, the percent sign is a scientific one, even if a rather simple and widely used one). And I'm sure you know how natural each person can find his own culture, while others would be puzzled by aspects of it. Hey, you're Dutch; doesn't that number read something like "twelve millions four hundred two and seventy thousands four hundred seven and seventy" in Dutch? (What else do German, Dutch, Arabic and Slovenian have in common?) And yet I'm sure you would read it out loud without hesitation (OK, you might say that you're only reversing two digits at a time, but I could reply that the way I see it, they are interspersed more or less arbitrarily). > math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a tendency to > go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum) That's standard in Maghreb as far as I know. Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-02-01 2:50 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2008-02-01 9:22 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-02-01 9:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users Arthur Reutenauer wrote: >> [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] >> >> [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] >> >> for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed > > I think you're mistaken about the flexibility of human mind. Eight > digits may look like a lot, but that's really not a long string compared > to an average line width, and it does not take a lot of effort for the > reader to look ahead for the start of the number. And eight digits is > probably the longest it gets anyway (OK, maybe 12, but a 15-digit number > would be difficult to read for anyone in any language). real interesting book ... http://www.mathematicalbrain.com/preface.html (thinks like reading and seein gumbers, thinking in numbers, differences imposed by culture and language) > Actually you should look at it as a cultural difference, even if it > interferes with scientific notation (and if you think about it, the > percent sign is a scientific one, even if a rather simple and widely > used one). And I'm sure you know how natural each person can find his > own culture, while others would be puzzled by aspects of it. Hey, > you're Dutch; doesn't that number read something like "twelve millions > four hundred two and seventy thousands four hundred seven and seventy" > in Dutch? (What else do German, Dutch, Arabic and Slovenian have in > common?) And yet I'm sure you would read it out loud without hesitation > (OK, you might say that you're only reversing two digits at a time, but > I could reply that the way I see it, they are interspersed more or less > arbitrarily). there's a difference between 2, two, second etc and languages cq. cultures where kids learn / encounter ons of them first (unfortunately i forget most of whay i read so i cannot summarize it) Hans ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 22:42 ` Hans Hagen 2008-01-31 23:11 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-02-01 2:50 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2008-02-01 7:07 ` Otared Kavian 2008-02-01 11:15 ` Steffen Wolfrum 2008-02-01 14:32 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Otared Kavian @ 2008-02-01 7:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi all, I checked in some Persian printed books, and noticed that the rule is to write 18% or rather ۱۸% However I don't know of any book in Persian on rules of typography. But I am asking some people in Iran about the issue. Regarding the treatment of numbers, indeed numbers are written (and read…) in the usual way, but in XeConTeXt or in XeTeX (I don't know still how to typeset an Arabic or Persian file with mkiv LuaTeX), there is an issue with separators of digits: for instance if one writes (in the source file) ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ (meaning 123 456 789, using a space as a separator between thousands) then one gets in the typeset file ۷۸۹ ۴۵۶ ۱۲۳ that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write \beginL ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ \endL and then the output is correct, but there is a slight modification of the alignment and the treatment of glues (if I don't misinterpret). While if one uses a comma (that is U+002C, this is the comma for LR, while the comma for RL, the Arabic Comma, is U+060C) as in ۱۲۳{,}۴۵۶{,}۷۸۹ or ۱۲۳,۴۵۶,۷۸۹ or a dot (that is U+002E, which is indeed the same when writing LR or RL) as in ۱۲۳.۴۵۶.۷۸۹ then the output is correct. It should be feasible to have a mechanism allowing the user to enforce a certain type of separator between groups of digits, and this separator can be a space. Best regards: OK On 31 janv. 08, at 23:42, Hans Hagen wrote: > Peter Münster wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: >>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? >> >> Hello, >> >> I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic >> to ask >> for "%81 or 18%" ? > > interesting point ... ok, small numbers, but how about > > [bara erom] 12.472.477 [bara emos] > > [bara erom] 774.274.21 [bara emos] > > for long numbers a pretty fast reversing mind is needed > > math goes from left to right but i once heard a talk about a > tendency to > go right - left as well (including mirrored symbols like \sum) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE > Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands > tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com > | www.pragma-pod.nl > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ___________________________________________________________________________________ > If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an > entry to the Wiki! > > maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context > webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net > archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ > wiki : http://contextgarden.net > ___________________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-02-01 7:07 ` Otared Kavian @ 2008-02-01 11:15 ` Steffen Wolfrum 2008-02-01 12:14 ` Otared Kavian 2008-02-01 14:32 ` Arthur Reutenauer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Steffen Wolfrum @ 2008-02-01 11:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Hi Otared, Am 01.02.2008 um 08:07 schrieb Otared Kavian: > Hi all, > > I checked in some Persian printed books, and noticed that the rule is > to write 18% or rather > > ۱۸% > > However I don't know of any book in Persian on rules of typography. > But I am asking some people in Iran about the issue. > > Regarding the treatment of numbers, indeed numbers are written (and > read…) in the usual way, but in XeConTeXt or in XeTeX (I don't know > still how to typeset an Arabic or Persian file with mkiv LuaTeX), > there is an issue with separators of digits: for instance if one > writes (in the source file) > > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ > > (meaning 123 456 789, using a space as a separator between thousands) > then one gets in the typeset file > > ۷۸۹ ۴۵۶ ۱۲۳ > > that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write > > \beginL > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ > \endL > > and then the output is correct, ... Maybe I missed the point: don't both lines produce the same output: ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ ? \TeXXeTstate=1 \definedfont["GeezaPro" at 16pt] \starttext ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ \beginL ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ \endL \stoptext ... or was this a confusion of multi-script e-mails? Steffen ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-02-01 11:15 ` Steffen Wolfrum @ 2008-02-01 12:14 ` Otared Kavian 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Otared Kavian @ 2008-02-01 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On 1 févr. 08, at 12:15, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: > […] > > Maybe I missed the point: don't both lines produce the same output: > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ ? > > > \TeXXeTstate=1 > \definedfont["GeezaPro" at 16pt] > > \starttext > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ > > \beginL > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ > \endL > > \stoptext > > > ... or was this a confusion of multi-script e-mails? > Hi Steffen, Indeed you are right. But the point is that when writing a text in Persian, or rather any RL text, in principle the beginning of the file is: \TeXXeTstate=1 \everypar={\setbox0=\lastbox \beginR \box0 } and therefore the output is different than the one you get. If one omits the second or both of the above two lines, again the output is as one intends, but the difficulty comes from the fact that (at least in Persian) when one writes some text containing a number, the digits and the separators, which can be the comma U+002C, the space, or the "slash" U+002F called Solidus (?) for writing fractions, should be typeset Left-to-Right. In particular compare the following for writing the number 123 456 789.01: ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹,۰۱ \beginL ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹,۰۱ \endL Indeed the first one results in something meaningless. Best regards: OK ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-02-01 7:07 ` Otared Kavian 2008-02-01 11:15 ` Steffen Wolfrum @ 2008-02-01 14:32 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2008-02-08 9:12 ` Arthur Reutenauer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2008-02-01 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users > that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write > > \beginL > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ > \endL I think this is more or less what the Unicode bidi algorithm recommends (using the corresponding Unicode characters, of course, not e-TeX commands). I have to check. Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-02-01 14:32 ` Arthur Reutenauer @ 2008-02-08 9:12 ` Arthur Reutenauer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Arthur Reutenauer @ 2008-02-08 9:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mailing list for ConTeXt users On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 03:32:05PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer wrote: > > that is 789 456 123. To overcome this issue one may write > > > > \beginL > > ۱۲۳ ۴۵۶ ۷۸۹ > > \endL > > I think this is more or less what the Unicode bidi algorithm > recommends (using the corresponding Unicode characters, of course, not > e-TeX commands). I have to check. Actually no, it expects you to use the non-breaking space (U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE) as a digit separator instead of the normal space. Sequences of digits interspersed with non-breaking spaces are not reordered by the Bidi Algorithm, contrary to what happens when you use a normal space. Of course this is not practical in ConTeXt for the moment, as the non-breaking space isn't treated as such (or is it?). Arthur ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 22:35 ` Peter Münster 2008-01-31 22:42 ` Hans Hagen @ 2008-01-31 23:07 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-02-01 9:06 ` Hans Hagen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-01-31 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:35:35 -0700, Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: >> >> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? > > Hello, > > I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask > for "%81 or 18%" ? Hmm, this could be a long discussion... In ancient times, Arabic numerals (whence our own) were pronounced as follows (translation): 1234 => "4 and 30 and 2 hundred and a thousand" Writing from right to left one would write 4 first, then 3, etc., giving the same output as writing from left to right. So the oft-repeated mantra that "numbering in Arabic is LR" is a half-truth. Today, Arabs, Persians etc. read numerals the same way westerners do; so the effect is that it is more convenient to enter numeral-strings as LR. But when the numbers were read in reverse (actually it is we that read numbers in reverse when you think about it, "Arabic numerals" after all) they were written RL and looked the same as our LR version. So taking Peter's logic to its conclusion we should be writing 18 as 81, not the other way around ;-) Best wishes Idris -- Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief International Journal of Shi`i Studies Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80523 ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? 2008-01-31 23:07 ` Idris Samawi Hamid @ 2008-02-01 9:06 ` Hans Hagen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2008-02-01 9:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mailing list for ConTeXt users Idris Samawi Hamid wrote: > On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:35:35 -0700, Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Steffen Wolfrum wrote: >>> Any native arabic speaker out there? Is it %18 or 18% ?? >> Hello, >> >> I don't know nothing about Arabic script, but wouldn't it be logic to ask >> for "%81 or 18%" ? > > Hmm, this could be a long discussion... sure, but interesting (summary should be part of your arab typesetting paper) > In ancient times, Arabic numerals (whence our own) were pronounced as > follows (translation): > > 1234 => "4 and 30 and 2 hundred and a thousand" aha, makes sense maybe it's also related to the fact that nowadays we see more numbers, and have learned to see them 'as a whole' and not as a systematic sequence ----------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________________ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-02-08 9:12 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2008-01-31 9:27 %18 or 18% : incorrect placement of the percentage sign ? Steffen Wolfrum 2008-01-31 12:44 ` Mr Dietrich Rordorf / MDPI 2008-01-31 15:08 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 15:48 ` Steffen Wolfrum 2008-01-31 15:51 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 20:25 ` Henning Hraban Ramm 2008-01-31 22:54 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-01-31 22:59 ` Hans Hagen 2008-01-31 22:35 ` Peter Münster 2008-01-31 22:42 ` Hans Hagen 2008-01-31 23:11 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-02-01 2:50 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2008-02-01 9:22 ` Hans Hagen 2008-02-01 7:07 ` Otared Kavian 2008-02-01 11:15 ` Steffen Wolfrum 2008-02-01 12:14 ` Otared Kavian 2008-02-01 14:32 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2008-02-08 9:12 ` Arthur Reutenauer 2008-01-31 23:07 ` Idris Samawi Hamid 2008-02-01 9:06 ` Hans Hagen
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).