TeX as an eBook engine?

TeX as an eBook engine?

[Otared Kavian]

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For those on the list who didn't see this thread on XeTeX mailing list:
How about ConTeXt and mkiv?

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Herbert Schulz <herbs@wideopenwest.com>
> Date: 2 décembre 2009 14:58:00 HNEC
> To: Unicode-based TeX for Mac OS X and other platforms <xetex@tug.org>
> Subject: Re: [XeTeX] TeX related application for iphone
> Reply-To: Unicode-based TeX for Mac OS X and other platforms <xetex@tug.org>
> 
> http://river-valley.tv/tex-as-an-ebook-reader/
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 7:35 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 4:59 AM, Vafa Khalighi wrote:
>> 
>>> Is there any TeX application for iphone?
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Vafa
>> 
>> Howdy,
>> 
>> Not for editing and/or compiling but take a look at a presentation by Kaveh Bazargan at the TUG 2009 conference. The presentation was impressive but there is still lots of work ahead.
>> 
>> There is an application called `LaTeX Help' that is a symbol->command list that might be helpful. I also see `iBibliography' that supposedly conforms to BibTeX format but don't have or use that.
>> 
>> Good Luck,
>> 
>> Herb Schulz
>> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> Howdy,
> 
> Sorry... I left off the link to Kaveh's talk. Go to <http://river-valley.tv/tex-as-an-ebook-reader/>.
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Herb Schulz
> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
> 
> 
> 



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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[Hans Hagen]

Otared Kavian wrote:
> For those on the list who didn't see this thread on XeTeX mailing list:
> How about ConTeXt and mkiv?

You mean runing on an iphone? First of all I cannot afford one so I have 
no clue about its performance. But most of all, it was a limited tex 
run, although fun to see, but no big macro packagem just something plain.

As Hartmut made pdftex run on similar gadgets I expect some day luatex 
to run on them as well but it has a real low priority. If one wants 
reflow, one should use html anyway.

Hans


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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2009-12-02 um 18:03 schrieb Otared Kavian:

> For those on the list who didn't see this thread on XeTeX mailing  
> list:
> How about ConTeXt and mkiv?

Hm, your subject is a bit misleading - I thought you wanted to *create  
eBooks* using TeX. That would be much more useful...
Even if some eBook devices can display PDF, AFAIK we still cannot  
create the re-flowable variant (needs a XML stream, see other  
discussions about tagged PDF or PDF/X).

In one of the latest c't (German computer magazine) there was a nice  
article on creating eBooks in Epub format (HTML based). Even if I  
don't intend to buy an eBook device, it made me think again about  
using another input language than TeX to create HTML, ConTeXt and  
whatever from one source. Knut Lickert recently gave a talk on "Creole  
for LaTeX" (Creole is an unified Wiki markup syntax), I'm still  
planning to use ReStructuredText (Python's documentation syntax) -  
note to self: finally adapt that LaTeX output filter to ConTeXt!


Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[Hans Hagen]

Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
> 
> Am 2009-12-02 um 18:03 schrieb Otared Kavian:
> 
>> For those on the list who didn't see this thread on XeTeX mailing list:
>> How about ConTeXt and mkiv?
> 
> Hm, your subject is a bit misleading - I thought you wanted to *create 
> eBooks* using TeX. That would be much more useful...
> Even if some eBook devices can display PDF, AFAIK we still cannot create 
> the re-flowable variant (needs a XML stream, see other discussions about 
> tagged PDF or PDF/X).
> 
> In one of the latest c't (German computer magazine) there was a nice 
> article on creating eBooks in Epub format (HTML based). Even if I don't 
> intend to buy an eBook device, it made me think again about using 
> another input language than TeX to create HTML, ConTeXt and whatever 
> from one source. Knut Lickert recently gave a talk on "Creole for LaTeX" 
> (Creole is an unified Wiki markup syntax), I'm still planning to use 
> ReStructuredText (Python's documentation syntax) - note to self: finally 
> adapt that LaTeX output filter to ConTeXt!

Processing epub is rather trivial. On my machine I have a sample style 
and processign boils down to:

context --ctx=x-epub --autopdf dickens-a-tale-of-two-cities.epub

However, the main reason for not posting the style is that I have not 
much reason currently to work on it. Also, as epub is effectively just 
packaged html, one ends up with styles for each specific book ... you 
just don't want to know what mess is hidden in those epub files (for 
example i ran into using h2 for the chapter numbers and h3 for the 
chapter title).

Hans
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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>>
>> Am 2009-12-02 um 18:03 schrieb Otared Kavian:
>>
>>> For those on the list who didn't see this thread on XeTeX mailing list:
>>> How about ConTeXt and mkiv?
>>
>> Hm, your subject is a bit misleading - I thought you wanted to *create
>> eBooks* using TeX. That would be much more useful...
>> Even if some eBook devices can display PDF, AFAIK we still cannot create
>> the re-flowable variant (needs a XML stream, see other discussions about
>> tagged PDF or PDF/X).
>>
>> In one of the latest c't (German computer magazine) there was a nice
>> article on creating eBooks in Epub format (HTML based). Even if I don't
>> intend to buy an eBook device, it made me think again about using another
>> input language than TeX to create HTML, ConTeXt and whatever from one
>> source. Knut Lickert recently gave a talk on "Creole for LaTeX" (Creole is
>> an unified Wiki markup syntax), I'm still planning to use ReStructuredText
>> (Python's documentation syntax) - note to self: finally adapt that LaTeX
>> output filter to ConTeXt!
>
> Processing epub is rather trivial. On my machine I have a sample style and
> processign boils down to:
>
> context --ctx=x-epub --autopdf dickens-a-tale-of-two-cities.epub
>
> However, the main reason for not posting the style is that I have not much
> reason currently to work on it. Also, as epub is effectively just packaged
> html, one ends up with styles for each specific book ... you just don't want
> to know what mess is hidden in those epub files (for example i ran into
> using h2 for the chapter numbers and h3 for the chapter title).
>
Maybe epub as backend is a more interesting  idea:
given (some kind of gentle )  tex file one can produce an epub file as  result.



-- 
luigi
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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[William Adams]

On Dec 3, 2009, at 4:12 AM, luigi scarso wrote:

> Maybe epub as backend is a more interesting  idea:
> given (some kind of gentle )  tex file one can produce an epub file  
> as  result.


You're putting the cart before the horse.

Sadly, epub is rather lacking in markup capabilities.

Instead, one should use a full-fledged markup scheme such as TEI, then  
one can convert that using an XSLT and add a nicely designed CSS to  
create a .epub which will be as good as it gets, but unfortunately,  
won't be as nice to read as a nicely formatted .pdf due to limitations  
of the H&J capabilities of .epub viewing programs.

An excellent example of the limitations of the .epub format in  
comparison to .pdf is _Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy_:

http://people.umass.edu/klement/russell-imp.html

William

-- 
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:10 PM, William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2009, at 4:12 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>> Maybe epub as backend is a more interesting  idea:
>> given (some kind of gentle )  tex file one can produce an epub file as
>>  result.
>
>
> You're putting the cart before the horse.
Not really.
With mkiv you can typeset xml files as pdf,
so you can also (using modes) convert it to xhtml (we have lua now).
Writing a css is not a problem, and you can also manage fonts -- after all
you know them because you need for pdf . Other  infos are trivial.

Following this route you can also make an (x)html for a WOFF enable browser
like firefox 2.6 beta -- it's almost the same of epub, after all
Cfr
people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html

Of course none can say that epub is like pdf from a typographical point of view
but for low energy devices can be better epub than pdf.

-- 
luigi
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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[William Adams]

On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:22 AM, luigi scarso wrote:

> Not really.

My apologies, lost the thread of the discussion. I agree w/ this.

> With mkiv you can typeset xml files as pdf,
> so you can also (using modes) convert it to xhtml (we have lua now).
> Writing a css is not a problem, and you can also manage fonts --  
> after all
> you know them because you need for pdf . Other  infos are trivial.
>
> Following this route you can also make an (x)html for a WOFF enable  
> browser
> like firefox 2.6 beta -- it's almost the same of epub, after all
> Cfr
> people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html
>
> Of course none can say that epub is like pdf from a typographical  
> point of view
> but for low energy devices can be better epub than pdf.


I'll grant that .epub can be more flexible and more appropriate, but  
one has to keep in mind that one is giving up quite a bit of  
typographical quality, and that one is at the mercy of the h&j of the  
viewing program and I've yet to see one which puts more than a  
minimal / brain-dead / greedy --- set as much as will fit on the  
current line and then break to the next algorithm in.

William

-- 
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:52 PM, William Adams <will.adams@frycomm.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:22 AM, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>> Not really.
>
> My apologies, lost the thread of the discussion. I agree w/ this.
>
>> With mkiv you can typeset xml files as pdf,
>> so you can also (using modes) convert it to xhtml (we have lua now).
>> Writing a css is not a problem, and you can also manage fonts -- after all
>> you know them because you need for pdf . Other  infos are trivial.
>>
>> Following this route you can also make an (x)html for a WOFF enable
>> browser
>> like firefox 2.6 beta -- it's almost the same of epub, after all
>> Cfr
>> people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html
>>
>> Of course none can say that epub is like pdf from a typographical point of
>> view
>> but for low energy devices can be better epub than pdf.
>
>
> I'll grant that .epub can be more flexible and more appropriate, but one has
> to keep in mind that one is giving up quite a bit of typographical quality,
> and that one is at the mercy of the h&j of the viewing program and I've yet
> to see one which puts more than a minimal / brain-dead / greedy --- set as
> much as will fit on the current line and then break to the next algorithm
> in.
It's true of course.
anyway  have you seen
http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/woff-spec-latest.html
http://people.mozilla.com/~jkew/woff/
?

I was at guit meeting this year, and  Kaveh too, and I have seen his
device with TeX.
It's really cool: it's not a simple dvi reader, it's a TeX
implementation+dvi reader
so one can exchange tex snippets with similar devices
Next release will use xetex.

I have some experience to port pdf in similar
devices too (it was 3years ago, too much time ago, really)
and in the end I'm convinced that (x)html is still the first choice.


-- 
luigi
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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد]

Hi Henning,

On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:17:22 -0700, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net>  
wrote:

> Even if I don't intend to buy an eBook device, it made me think again  
> about using another input language than TeX to create HTML, ConTeXt and  
> whatever from one source.

Pandoc has this aim, and supports ConTeXt to some degree.

Best wishes
Idris

-- 
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523

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Re: TeX as an eBook engine?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2009-12-05 um 15:58 schrieb Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي  
حامد:

> On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:17:22 -0700, Henning Hraban Ramm <hraban@fiee.net 
> > wrote:
>
>> Even if I don't intend to buy an eBook device, it made me think  
>> again about using another input language than TeX to create HTML,  
>> ConTeXt and whatever from one source.
>
> Pandoc has this aim, and supports ConTeXt to some degree.

Thanks for the hint, I'll try it (hopefully it can do what I need  
without me learning Haskell).


Grüßlinge vom Südsee!
Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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