The ConTeXt book

The ConTeXt book

[Arthur Reutenauer]

	Hello,

  This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
delegating this task.

  The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
us to pay another writer.  Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!

  Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
like.

	Cheers,

		Hans (pragma at wxs do nl)
		Taco (taco at elvenkind dot com)
		Arthur (arthur dot reutenauer at normalesup dot org)
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Martin Schröder]

2010/4/1 Arthur Reutenauer <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>:
>  This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.

Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)

Best
    Martin
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Michail Vidiassov]

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On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Martin Schröder wrote:

> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)

and a good one, one you _want_ to believe...

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Martin Schröder <martin@oneiros.de> wrote:
> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
if so
another beer for me
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Arthur Reutenauer]

> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)

  Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
too much attention to your mail :-]

  To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
motivation are also a problem.

  And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
moving?

	Have a nice Good Friday everyone,

		Arthur
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>
>  Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
> too much attention to your mail :-]
>
>  To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
> Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
> ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
> motivation are also a problem.
>
>  And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
> heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
> moving?
>
>        Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
So let's see this year what I have won;
Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
Hans: + beer
Arthur: + beer
Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)
They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..


-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 2-4-2010 11:57, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
> <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>  wrote:
>>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>>
>>   Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
>> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
>> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
>> too much attention to your mail :-]
>>
>>   To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
>> Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
>> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
>> ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
>> motivation are also a problem.
>>
>>   And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
>> heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
>> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
>> moving?
>>
>>         Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
> So let's see this year what I have won;
> Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
> Hans: + beer
> Arthur: + beer
> Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)

but that's a german size which is twice the dutch so ...

> They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..

5 then ... i'd better let you update the modules documentation then 
before you start drinking (there will be a current next week, so you 
have plenty of time)

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[John Haltiwanger]

Ah, I was going to respond in an offlist email to Arthur that I am
available for help. My masters thesis, though evolved considerably
since I first submitted a vague description some months ago, is still
significantly focused on ConTeXt. I will necessarily be documenting
the means by which I overcome certain obstacles, achieve certain
effects, etc. This will appear through blog posts, and in the end may
or may not be typeset into a kind of "Excursion"-style PDF. All this
discussion of poor documentation at times brings fear into my
enthusiasm for this thesis. On the one hand I do not wish to rely on
mk.II, and on the other I've heard people say that any projects they
begin in mk.IV end up being written for mk.II for stability purposes.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Anyway, just wanted to say that there was to be at least one more
individual offering help. Too bad it turns out to be a joke :/


Regards,
John Haltiwanger


On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 2-4-2010 11:57, luigi scarso wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Arthur Reutenauer
>> <arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good news - if it isn't an April hoax. :-)
>>>
>>>  Martin, you're so evil!  Don't ever ruin my jokes again -- I didn't
>>> ruin yours 3 years again (the one where you announced XPSTeX, and said
>>> Microsoft would embed pdfTeX in Word).  Fortunately people didn't pay
>>> too much attention to your mail :-]
>>>
>>>  To all: it was, indeed, an April Fool's joke I suggested to Hans and
>>> Taco.  Nobody has offered to pay anyone to write ConTeXt documentation
>>> yet, although several people have toyed with the idea of writing a
>>> ConTeXt book.  But, even with the incentive of money, time and
>>> motivation are also a problem.
>>>
>>>  And to the only one who offered help -- Luigi: gloria a te!  It's
>>> heartwarming to see truly sincere support.  I'm sorry I have nothing to
>>> provide for the moment, but maybe in the near future things will get
>>> moving?
>>>
>>>        Have a nice Good Friday everyone,
>>
>> So let's see this year what I have won;
>> Taco: ++ beers (one for last year...)
>> Hans: + beer
>> Arthur: + beer
>> Martin: 1/2 beer (* I * remember it)
>
> but that's a german size which is twice the dutch so ...
>
>> They are 4.5 beers for me --- a good motive to come bachoTeX...hmm..
>
> 5 then ... i'd better let you update the modules documentation then before
> you start drinking (there will be a current next week, so you have plenty of
> time)
>
> Hans
>
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>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 2-4-2010 13:18, John Haltiwanger wrote:
> Ah, I was going to respond in an offlist email to Arthur that I am
> available for help. My masters thesis, though evolved considerably
> since I first submitted a vague description some months ago, is still
> significantly focused on ConTeXt. I will necessarily be documenting
> the means by which I overcome certain obstacles, achieve certain
> effects, etc. This will appear through blog posts, and in the end may
> or may not be typeset into a kind of "Excursion"-style PDF. All this
> discussion of poor documentation at times brings fear into my
> enthusiasm for this thesis. On the one hand I do not wish to rely on
> mk.II, and on the other I've heard people say that any projects they
> begin in mk.IV end up being written for mk.II for stability purposes.
> It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that 
bad; the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync

Hans

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                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[John Haltiwanger]

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that bad;
> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync

Good to know :)

I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
code?

Re: documentation,

Perhaps a thing to do in the meantime is start a section on the wiki
where we do a command by command description of what different macros
accomplish? (Apologies if I'm mincing terminologies here). Starting
with the undocumented ones, but then working back and providing a bit
of insight into use cases, such as what 'middle' may mean in a given
instance, or that it's the best/required option (this point is still
fuzzy to me). The command ref is just not insightful at my level of
TeX.

The thesis case study is concurrent typesetting of itself in HTML,
ODT, and ConTeXt. Part of the idea is to interrogate different
capabilities and comparing the processes between the formats for
accomplishing the same thing (toggle-able sidenotes instead of
footnote/endnote citations in ConTeXt vs HTML, for instance). So in
that sense there should be more tutorial style content available for
the wiki. I'll be pestering the list for help in those areas, I'm
sure.
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

John Haltiwanger wrote:

> Re: documentation,
> 
> Perhaps a thing to do in the meantime is start a section on the wiki
> where we do a command by command description of what different macros
> accomplish? 

As of right now, Patrick has overstepped his self-imposed deadline
for merging the texshow-web data into the wiki by 38 hours and 23
minutes. :)

The main idea behind that planned move is that the wiki is a much
friendlier editing environment than texshow-web, thereby increasing
the chances of people contributing better descriptions and examples.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Patrick Gundlach]

> As of right now, Patrick has overstepped his self-imposed deadline
> for merging the texshow-web data into the wiki by 38 hours and 23
> minutes. :)


:-) Actually my load average goes down from 2.3 to 1.0 currently and probably down to 0.5 next week, so I hope not to push my deadline by more then 14 days.

Patrick

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Russell Urquhart]

As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke! I would have loved to have been able to contribute a little to such a good effort!

Russ
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1165 bytes --]

On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:32:50 -0500
>>>>>> "Russell" == Russell Urquhart <russurquhart1@verizon.net> wrote:

Russell> As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting
Russell> into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke! 

Just see the sad affair of Context's docs so that the 'book' is topic for
the April's 1st joke. :-(

If it wouldn't be so sad, it would be funny...

At the moment I'm looking to learn jQuery and, rest assured, there are
several books to choose from. Being a 'book' guy, it's hard to find
any significant project without either up-to-date manual or some books
available, and I definitely consider that ConTeXt could be one.

However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
about it...)

 
Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Saturday 03 April 2010 07:37:36 Gour wrote:
> 
> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
> 

You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!

Alan
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 08:47, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Saturday 03 April 2010 07:37:36 Gour wrote:
>>
>> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
>> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
>> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(
>
> You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!

I really love that answer :) :) :) And it's definitely true. Much more
true than the ConTeXt-to-LaTeX ratio :)

ConTeXt has a bus-factor of 1. Well, if you ask me, the whole LaTeX
core has bus-factor 0 (apart from some well-maintaned packages; and
even those packages usually have bus-factor just a tiny fraction above
1; including TikZ, tex4ht, ...). If you want full support and more
guarantee with a higher bus-factor, you should better choose Adobe or
Microsoft products and I really mean it. For me it's just fun to
browse the sources from time to time ...

It is definitely true that a manual is needed (everyone agrees with
that), but you need to keep in mind that Hans makes a living with what
he does and we can be extremely happy that he releases ConTeXt
publically at all (he could just as well keep it in private for
himself and his company). Writing a good manual could easily take
one-man-year or more, so if some company is willing to pay him for
that, he (or some other almost-developer) would probably do it.

What nobody here realizes that main developers of jQuery or any other
tools probably don't answer dozens of mails daily to beginners'
questions on the mailing lists.

As already said: anyone is free to start writing a manual by himself.
People to help will join later ... Just start.

Mojca
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 689 bytes --]

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:47:44 +0200
>>>>>> "Mojca" == Mojca Miklavec <mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

Mojca> > You can use MS-Word - it has a *huge* user base!
Mojca> 
Mojca> I really love that answer :) :) :) And it's definitely true.

I'm really sad to receive such foolish answers here. :-(

What do you think why I'm subscribed to the ntg-context list at the
first place?

Moreover, by inspecting X-Newsreader: header in my message you could
deduce that I most probably do not use OS for which MS-Word is
available...


Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi,

Gour wrote:
> 
> Russell> As a tech writer for almost 30 years, and someone just getting
> Russell> into Context, i am sorry to hear that was a joke! 
> 
> Just see the sad affair of Context's docs so that the 'book' is topic for
> the April's 1st joke. :-(

> If it wouldn't be so sad, it would be funny...

Personally, I think it is a sad joke that I started a community project
to update the reference manual after a lot of complaints about the
documentation but over four years down the road the actual community
turns out to have a population closely approximating one.

> At the moment I'm looking to learn jQuery and, rest assured, there are
> several books to choose from. 

If you could convince mozilla to adopt ConTeXt, I am sure there would
be a lot of books within half a year. Have a closer look on books on
'hot topics' like jQuery and you'll see that almost none of these
books are written by the inventors themselves. Granted, often the first
(and sometimes the best) books are by the inventors, but the *number*
of books on a subject just gives an indication of the book market size,
nothing more.

> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create more
users (nor even automatically create readers, for that matter).

> This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
> is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
> about it...)

The answer to this question is quite obvious if you have read Douglas
Adams' books: the bus will think about the impact of its actions on the
universe for a moment. Then, deeply immersed in gut-wrenching shame,
it will travel back in time half a minute and push its own breaks for
an emergency stop.

Best wishes,
Taco

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

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On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 08:54:54 +0200
>>>>>> "Taco" == Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:

Taco> Granted, often the first (and sometimes the best) books are by
Taco> the inventors, but the *number* of books on a subject just gives
Taco> an indication of the book market size, nothing more.

Well, I used example of jQuery which is hot for me atm, but I could
say Django as well or something.

Why do you think the books about different projects are written &
bought? It's not novel-market...

Taco> The availability of ConTeXt books will not automatically create
Taco> more users (nor even automatically create readers, for that
Taco> matter).

Hmm, interesting...

If even you think that ConTeXt books are not important (to bring new
users), then no wonder we do not have even a single one...


Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 7:37, Gour wrote:

> However, when I ask somewhere about the support for ConTeXt I'm
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list whih 
makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of the active 
tex lists

also keep in mind that lates (+amsmath) was declared 'a standard' soon 
after tex surfaced ... just wonder why currently there are only two main 
macro packages: latex and context .. it sometimes surprises me that 
eventually we made it to this stage

also, quite some developments originate and relate to the context 
community which might also be a good sign

as taco mentions ... 99% of the latex books are not written by lamport

also, even today i see books show up that cover the same topics every 
time so it looks like none of the books is the definitive answer

anyway ... idris is writing a context book so push him to speed up

> This raises another concern and that is: what is the future of ConTeXt
> is Hans "get hit by the bus"? (Of course, we even do not want to think
> about it...)

there are couple of folks out there (and on the list) who know the 
source code pretty well so i would not worry to much about that

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Gour]

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On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:51:33 +0200
>>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:

Hello Hans,

Hans> you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list
Hans> whih makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of
Hans> the active tex lists

I just conveyed real message which I got, nothing else, i.e. I did not
paint that picture...

Here you can e.g. see reply from the main dev which I got 2 years ago
when asked about support for ConTexT in docutils (which does LaTeX):
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.docutils.user/4404

Hans> also keep in mind that lates (+amsmath) was declared 'a standard'
Hans> soon after tex surfaced ... just wonder why currently there are
Hans> only two main macro packages: latex and context .. it sometimes
Hans> surprises me that eventually we made it to this stage

I offer my deepest respect for your work and tireless enthusiasm.

Hans> as taco mentions ... 99% of the latex books are not written by
Hans> lamport

Nobody expects that you write the book...

Hans> anyway ... idris is writing a context book so push him to speed up

That's very nice to hear...much better than some other replies in this
thread. ;)

Hans> there are couple of folks out there (and on the list) who know
Hans> the source code pretty well so i would not worry to much about
Hans> that

OK. We hope there won't be need for the proof in practice.


Sincerely,
Gour

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 1:48, Gour wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:51:33 +0200
>>>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>
> Hello Hans,
>
> Hans>  you must be kidding ... there are some 600 people on this list
> Hans>  whih makes it actually not that small tex list; it's also one of
> Hans>  the active tex lists
>
> I just conveyed real message which I got, nothing else, i.e. I did not
> paint that picture...
>
> Here you can e.g. see reply from the main dev which I got 2 years ago
> when asked about support for ConTexT in docutils (which does LaTeX):
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.docutils.user/4404

i've been sent worse examples, like "context is just plain tex" or 
"context is a package for latex"  or "context cannot do math" or ...
also "luatex is not going to succees" or "luatex is a bad idea" or ...



Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Martin Schröder]

2010/4/3 Gour <gour@gour-nitai.com>:
> getting answers like: "This is the project which has only 5 or 6
> users. Who actually uses it? Use LaTeX!" :-(

The answer is true if you only have to write articles for scientific
journals - AFAIK there is no major one accepting Context input.

Get AMS or ACM to accept Context and you will see books soon.

Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)

Best
   Martin
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 10:59, schrieb Martin Schröder:
> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)
>    
http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
what do you think about luaLaTeX compatibility module for ConTeX-mkiv ?

-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 11:20, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>>      
> what do you think about luaLaTeX compatibility module for ConTeX-mkiv ?
>    
1. The LaTeX module is from Brooks Moses, not me.

2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?

Wolfgang
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:

> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
\usemodule[latex]
and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Taco Hoekwater]

luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
> \usemodule[latex]
> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).

Sounds like a good goal, but it will need a new maintainer, I think.

However, Brooks seems to have left us, and I myself lost my interest in
LaTeX compatibility (I wrote a fair bit of the module code, back when I
had a commercial project that was originally latex and wanted to be
able to cut and paste esp. the tabular material).

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> luigi scarso wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
>> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>
>> \usemodule[latex]
>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>
> Sounds like a good goal, but it will need a new maintainer, I think.
>
> However, Brooks seems to have left us, and I myself lost my interest in
> LaTeX compatibility (I wrote a fair bit of the module code, back when I
> had a commercial project that was originally latex and wanted to be
> able to cut and paste esp. the tabular material).
The interesting part for me is that most of lua code is already here
in some form.
BTW luaLaTeX team is up and running these days, I'm following it
because this year EUROTEX meeting will be in Italy where latex
community is strong
(almost like ConTeXt Italian community of course :-) )
and humanist-oriented .

-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>      
> \usemodule[latex]
> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>    
And what's with the Lua part you want?

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>
>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>>
>>
>> \usemodule[latex]
>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>>
>
> And what's with the Lua part you want?
encoding
font management
name space to avoid macro collision
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>>      
> encoding
>    
\usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]

and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible 
with pure tex code
> font management
>    
i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
> name space to avoid macro collision
>    
tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>
>>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>>>
>>
>> encoding
>>
>
> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
>
> and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible with
> pure tex code
>>
>> font management
>>
>
> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
these ones

>> name space to avoid macro collision
> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
tex macros

-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:53 PM, luigi scarso <luigi.scarso@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
>> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
encoding are gone
-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:56, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} ->  \enableregime[latin1]
>>>        
> encoding are gone
>    
Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and 
mac) are gone.

Wolfgang
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 15:53, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> font managemen
>> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
>> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
>>      
> these ones
>    
The code for luaotfload is taken from ConTeXt. A high level interface
like fontspec is not so hard (see simplefonts) and the information you
need for optical sized fonts (like Latin Modern or Minion Pro) are there
since November last year, e.g. this is the entry for LM Roman 12

   {
    designsize=120,
    familyname="latinmodernroman",
    filename="lmroman12-regular.otf",
    fontname="lmroman12regular",
    format="otf",
    fullname="lmroman12regular",
    maxsize=140,
    minsize=110,
    modifiers="12regular",
    rawname="LMRoman12-Regular",
    style="normal",
    subfamily="regular",
    variant="normal",
    weight="normal",
    width="normal",
   },

>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>        
>> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?
>>      
> tex macros
>    
Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments

For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
\end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The code for luaotfload is taken from ConTeXt. A high level interface
> like fontspec is not so hard (see simplefonts)
yes, exactly what I'm thinking.

>and the information you
> need for optical sized fonts (like Latin Modern or Minion Pro) are there
> since November last year, e.g. this is the entry for LM Roman 12
>
>  {
>   designsize=120,
>   familyname="latinmodernroman",
:
>   width="normal",
>  },
again yes

>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env> end for
> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
Lua  can be more effective than TeX here ?

>>encoding are gone
>  Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
I care only unicode utf-8

-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 16:16, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>>>            
>> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
>> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
>> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env>  end for
>> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
>>      
> Lua  can be more effective than TeX here ?
>    
Lua can't do anything with conflicts at the user level.

For a LaTeX module you can do something like

\begin{env} -> \??lm:begin:env
\end{env} -> \??lm:end:env
>>> encoding are gone
>>>        
>>   Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
>>      
> I care only unicode utf-8
>    
This wasn't the question ;)

Wolfgang

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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Taco Hoekwater]

Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 16:16, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>>> name space to avoid macro collision
>>>>>>            
>>> Possible with internal commands but you can run into problems with
>>> the user commands, a problem is also how LaTeX handle environments
>>> For \begin{env} LaTeX expects a macro with the name \<env>  end for
>>> \end{env} a macro with the name \end<env>.
>>>      
>> Lua  can be more effective than TeX here ?
>>    
> Lua can't do anything with conflicts at the user level.
> 
> For a LaTeX module you can do something like
> 
> \begin{env} -> \??lm:begin:env
> \end{env} -> \??lm:end:env

I think the current latex module does

\def\begin#1{\csname start#1\endcsname}
\def\end#1{\csname stop#1\endcsname}

but that all depends on how much latex compatibility is
really needed.

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[luigi scarso]

@Taco
> I think the current latex module does
>
> \def\begin#1{\csname start#1\endcsname}
> \def\end#1{\csname stop#1\endcsname}
>
> but that all depends on how much latex compatibility is
> really needed.
Only for latex/base/*

@Wolfgang
>>>Most input encodings are supported in mkiv, only a few (e.g. cyr and mac) are gone.
>>I care only unicode utf-8
> This wasn't the question ;)
??



-- 
luigi
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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 16:55, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> I care only unicode utf-8
>>>        
>> This wasn't the question ;)
>>      
> ??
>    
You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
ehat you use or what's the preferred encoding is another topic.

Wolfgang

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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
<schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
id est ?

-- 
luigi
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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 17:11, schrieb luigi scarso:
>> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
>>      
> id est ?
>    
\enableregime[latin1]
\starttext
AOUÄÖÜ
\stoptext

When encodins are really gone this should fail with mkiv
but what you get as output is 'AOUÄÖU' what means encodings
aren't gone. It's recommended to use UTF-8 encoded input
but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.

Wolfgang

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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 6:44, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 17:11, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
>> id est ?
> \enableregime[latin1]
> \starttext
> AOUÄÖÜ
> \stoptext
>
> When encodins are really gone this should fail with mkiv
> but what you get as output is 'AOUÄÖU' what means encodings
> aren't gone. It's recommended to use UTF-8 encoded input
> but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.

indeed and there is no reason to drop backward compatibility in that 
respect

of course font (and math) encodings are completely gone

Hans


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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> On 3-4-2010 6:44, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
>>
>> Am 03.04.10 17:11, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>
>>>> You said encodings are gone in mkiv but this isn't true,
>>>
>>> id est ?
>>
>> \enableregime[latin1]
>> \starttext
>> AOUÄÖÜ
>> \stoptext
acceptable in mkii
horror in mkiv

>>
>> When encodins are really gone this should fail with mkiv
>> but what you get as output is 'AOUÄÖU' what means encodings
>> aren't gone. It's recommended to use UTF-8 encoded input
>> but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.
or invent one by myself too --why not ?

> indeed and there is no reason to drop backward compatibility in that respect
yes yes , of course backward comp.
But, apart this (which is important etc etc etc) any other issue ?
I mean: I'm typesetting international pricelist from 7 years, it would
be impossible to manage thing without unicode and context.
If one submit a file in a known (iconv --list) encoding I convert it
in unicode utf  *before* and then process with mkiv.
And iconv can be eventually link in lua, by a dynamic linking --- not
need for peek and poke sources.
Or it can be done in pure lua.
Am I wrong ?
Anyway I do the rules --- only one input encoding: unicode utf-8 .
Sorry for the others.
>
> of course font (and math) encodings are completely gone
unicode input  & uncode fonts are the news --- you typeset what you see
I understand that ``correct'' is the right way
but please
“correct” is better (the perfect way)
(I mean
U+201C LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK correct U+201D RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK
)
-- 
luigi
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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 7:09, luigi scarso wrote:

>>> but there is nothing which prevents you from using another one.
> or invent one by myself too --why not ?

ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there 
would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!

Hans


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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[luigi scarso]

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
Uh? who needs them ?
never had a problem with italian & context

-- 
luigi
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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Andrea Valle]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1479 bytes --]

me neither. Should I ? :)

-a-

On Apr 3, 2010, at 7:19 PM, luigi scarso wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl> wrote:
>> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that  
>> there
>> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
> Uh? who needs them ?
> never had a problem with italian & context
>
> -- 
> luigi
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an  
> entry to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________

--------------------------------------------------
Andrea Valle
--------------------------------------------------
CIRMA - DAMS
Università degli Studi di Torino
--> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/
--> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle
--> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/
-->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle
--> andrea.valle@unito.it
--------------------------------------------------
" This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a  
lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous."
(Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)




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[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]

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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 7:19, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
>> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
> Uh? who needs them ?
> never had a problem with italian&  context

ah, so you would actually have considered it a serious joke then -)

Hans

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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Martin Schröder]

2010/4/3 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>:
> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!

After that can we have ascii please?

Best
   Martin
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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Taco Hoekwater]

Martin Schröder wrote:
> 2010/4/3 Hans Hagen <pragma@wxs.nl>:
>> ah .. woul dhav emade a nice april 1 joke ... you announcing that there
>> would finally be a proper input as well as font encoding for italian!
> 
> After that can we have ascii please?

ebcdic!

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Re: (lua?)latex module ( The ConTeXt book)

[Martin Schröder]

2010/4/3 Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>:
> ebcdic!

UTF-EBCDIC?
UTF-5?

Best
   Martin
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 3:49, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 03.04.10 15:42, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
>> encoding
> \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc} -> \enableregime[latin1]
>
> and convert latex encoding names to context names but that's possible
> with pure tex code

who cares about that? will you then start using latex commands instead? 
and i'm pretty sure that although it might sound similar that the 
appeoached are different

>> font management
> i doubt latex’s and context’s system can be mixed (without ugly hacks) or
> do you mean a higher system like fontspec and luaotfload
>> name space to avoid macro collision
> tex macros or lua functions (can you be more concrete)?

again a macro package specific problem; in context we have namespaces 
already for a long time and it works ok

and believe me, there's not much to share .. it's way more easy for me 
write code from scratch in a context way

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 3:42, luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Wolfgang Schuster
> <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com>  wrote:
>> Am 03.04.10 15:01, schrieb luigi scarso:
>>>>
>>>> 2. What do you expect from a LuaLaTeX module?
>>>>
>>>
>>> \usemodule[latex]
>>> and then all things in latex/base/* work ok (and only these ones).
>>>
>>
>> And what's with the Lua part you want?
> encoding
> font management
> name space to avoid macro collision

well, latex and context differ fundamentally and i'm not going to waste 
time on making things that can be shared (the font stuff is an exception 
and i only do the plain part; there might be more plain modules 
eventually); just look at the mp to pdf code ... you don't want to know 
what i had to do over time to keep it running in all macro packages

and, as said the approach, interfaces, integratin of latex is so 
different that it makes no sense either; of course if i'm paid well i 
can consider making generic derivates but that's unlikely to happen

my energy goes in context. (period)

Hans


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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Vedran Miletić]

2010/4/3 Wolfgang Schuster <schuster.wolfgang@googlemail.com>:
> Am 03.04.10 10:59, schrieb Martin Schröder:
>>
>> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-)
>>
>
> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>
> Wolfgang

Wow!

Any documentation on what it supports?

-- 
Vedran Miletić
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 03.04.10 11:47, schrieb Vedran Miletić:
>>> Or write a LaTeX module for Context. :-
>> http://modules.contextgarden.net/LaTeX
>>      
> Wow!
>
> Any documentation on what it supports?
>    
http://dl.contextgarden.net/modules/t-latex/tex/context/third/latex/latextest.tex

Wolfgang

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 2-4-2010 14:20, John Haltiwanger wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>
>> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not that bad;
>> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
>
> Good to know :)
>
> I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
> than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
> a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
> that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
> code?

the same and more, it's still tex but we can now extend using lua so we 
can go beyond what normal tex can do

Hans

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Matthias Weber]

Yes, that's indeed good to know. My MAIN problem with mkiv is that I  
can't get interaction bars working. I posted two basic setups a while  
ago,
and while they work fine in mkii, they fail in mkiv. Never got a  
response ...


Matthias


On Apr 2, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> On 2-4-2010 14:20, John Haltiwanger wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Hans Hagen<pragma@wxs.nl>  wrote:
>>
>>> well, i use mkiv exclusively so that might be a sign that it's not  
>>> that bad;
>>> the main issue is to keep mkiv and luatex in sync
>>
>> Good to know :)
>>
>> I would much prefer mkiv as well, as luatex seems much easier to grok
>> than TeX. I have the luck to be entering typographical programming at
>> a new stage. To what degree can luatex be relied on to accomplish all
>> that TeX macros can? Does certain functionality still require TeX
>> code?
>
> the same and more, it's still tex but we can now extend using lua so  
> we can go beyond what normal tex can do
>
> Hans
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
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InteractionsBar - another shot

[Matthias Weber]

Dear al,

let me try again:

The following works in mkii but all the buttons get squeezed together  
in mkiv. I have the hunch that I'm doing something that I am not  
supposed
to which just accidentally works in mkii. But I can't figure out what.


Thanks,
Matthias



\setupbodyfont		[10pt]

% Colors

\setupcolors		[state=start]
\setupcolor		[rgb]


\definecolor [HyperlinkColor] [r=.6,g=.1,b=.2] %Hyperlinks
\definecolor [ContrastColor] [r=.1,g=.2,b=.2] % ?
\definecolor [InteractionColor] [r=.1,g=.3,b=.2] %available actionbar  
bars
\definecolor [ContrastColor2]    [r=.1,g=.1,b=.4] %current actionbar bar


\setupinteraction	[	state=start,
					menu=on,
					page=yes,
					color=HyperlinkColor,
					contrastcolor=ContrastColor]
					
\setupinteractionmenu
   [bottom]
   [leftoffset=+10pt,
    rightoffset=-10pt]

\startinteractionmenu[bottom]
   \txt \InteractionButtons \\
\stopinteractionmenu

\def\InteractionButtons%
   {\interactionbuttons
      [width=40em,height=1em]
      [PreviousJump,NextJump,
       firstpage,
       firstsubpage,previouspage,nextpage,lastsubpage,
       lastpage,
       CloseDocument]}



\setupinteractionmenu	[	state=start]

% Page Layout

\setuppapersize		[S6][S6]

\setuplayout			[	bottomspace=.8cm,
              					bottom=12pt]
					
\starttext

\dorecurse{10}{\input knuth\par}

\stoptext

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Re: InteractionsBar - another shot

[Willi Egger]

Hi Mathias,

I played with your example. It looks like that the interactionbuttons  
option "width" works differentlty in MKIV. When replacing this with .9 
\textwidth the buttons are placed over the whole area. However there  
is no spacing between the buttons.

So we must ask Hans what has changed ...

Kind regards

Willi


On 2 Apr 2010, at 23:08, Matthias Weber wrote:

> \def\InteractionButtons%
>   {\interactionbuttons
>      [width=40em,height=1em]
width=\.9\textwidth
>      [PreviousJump,NextJump,
>       firstpage,
>       firstsubpage,previouspage,nextpage,lastsubpage,
>       lastpage,
>       CloseDocument]}

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Re: InteractionsBar - another shot

[Hans Hagen]

On 3-4-2010 4:08, Willi Egger wrote:
> Hi Mathias,
>
> I played with your example. It looks like that the interactionbuttons
> option "width" works differentlty in MKIV. When replacing this with
> .9\textwidth the buttons are placed over the whole area. However there
> is no spacing between the buttons.
>
> So we must ask Hans what has changed ...

i remember changing something for the sake of configureablility but 
forgot what (i was actually thinking of moving that bit of code to a 
module and extend it it a bit) as i had to switch to do something else

Hans


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Re: InteractionsBar - another shot

[Matthias Weber]

So what do you recommend:

- not use the interactionbuttons
- pray that they will start working some time in the future
- buy Hans a beer (I would have done that a while ago, but shipping is  
more expensive than the
   product. Maybe there is a service in Holland where you can have  
beer delivered like online florists do for flowers?)


Matthias


On Apr 3, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

> On 3-4-2010 4:08, Willi Egger wrote:
>> Hi Mathias,
>>
>> I played with your example. It looks like that the interactionbuttons
>> option "width" works differentlty in MKIV. When replacing this with
>> .9\textwidth the buttons are placed over the whole area. However  
>> there
>> is no spacing between the buttons.
>>
>> So we must ask Hans what has changed ...
>
> i remember changing something for the sake of configureablility but  
> forgot what (i was actually thinking of moving that bit of code to a  
> module and extend it it a bit) as i had to switch to do something else
>
> Hans
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>              Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
>     tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
>                                             | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: InteractionsBar - another shot

[Hans Hagen]

On 5-4-2010 12:59, Matthias Weber wrote:
> So what do you recommend:
>
> - not use the interactionbuttons
> - pray that they will start working some time in the future
> - buy Hans a beer (I would have done that a while ago, but shipping is
> more expensive than the
> product. Maybe there is a service in Holland where you can have beer
> delivered like online florists do for flowers?)

well, i'm not that often drinking beers, mostly at tex conferences -)

so patience works best i guess

Hans


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Re: The ConTeXt book

[luigi scarso]

a disposizione.


On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Arthur Reutenauer
<arthur.reutenauer@normalesup.org> wrote:
>        Hello,
>
>  This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.
>
>  The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
> respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
> us to pay another writer.  Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
> company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!
>
>  Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
> respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
> like.
>
>        Cheers,
>
>                Hans (pragma at wxs do nl)
>                Taco (taco at elvenkind dot com)
>                Arthur (arthur dot reutenauer at normalesup dot org)
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
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>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>



-- 
luigi
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Sebastien Mengin]

Le 01 avril 2010 à 07:08, Arthur Reutenauer a écrit:
> 	Hello,
> 
>   This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
> to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
> next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
> this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
> getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
> delegating this task.
> 
>   The project will be financed full-time by Pragma and Bittext, their
> respective companies, and we're seeking other sources that would allow
> us to pay another writer.  Anyone volunteering on behalf of her / his
> company, or of her / his own initiative, please contact us!
> 
>   Over the next weeks I will collect opinions from users about their
> respective priorities, and what they (you!) think the book should look
> like.

Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
afterward?

I would definitely like to get involved in such a project -- as a
volunteer (proof read or the like...).

Bye,

-- 
Sébastien Mengin
Édition et logiciels libres
< Mise en page avec LaTeX >
http://edilibre.net

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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 1-4-2010 19:40, Sebastien Mengin wrote:

> Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
> afterward?

that's indeed a problem. as there is some european funding involved as 
well as from somefrench academy it has to be in french but once the 
content is there arthur will also do the translation (i still remember 
eurotex in brest ... all in french because of some rules)

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Thursday 01 April 2010 19:43:51 Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 1-4-2010 19:40, Sebastien Mengin wrote:
> > Do you plan to work on a French version as a basis and translate it
> > afterward?
> 
> that's indeed a problem. as there is some european funding involved as
> well as from somefrench academy it has to be in french but once the
> content is there arthur will also do the translation (i still remember
> eurotex in brest ... all in french because of some rules)
> 
> Hans

That was the early effects of some un-enforceable law carrying the name
of Mr. "All-good" (law Toubon).

I recently organized an international summer school in Corsica
(nice place to hold a summer school) and indeed was contacted by some
obscure association with the aim of defending the French language.
You see, our website was in English (remember, *international* summer school)
and we were "reported" by one of their members. (They had no shame to
say so... kind of reminds one not the very best episodes of recent
French history.)

So I looked into the law and followed it to the letter: I offered to the
one French national teacher (out of 12) the possibility to give his course
in French. Of course he would not think of it. And I made sure that we had
a translation device on hand (a dictionary).

So I suggest that Arthur write the book in French and maybe I could
translate it into Dutch.

Alan
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Hans Hagen]

On 1-4-2010 21:38, Alan BRASLAU wrote:

> So I looked into the law and followed it to the letter: I offered to the
> one French national teacher (out of 12) the possibility to give his course
> in French. Of course he would not think of it. And I made sure that we had
> a translation device on hand (a dictionary).

Ah ... translators ... I remember that we had quite some fun when the 
translator started to make jokes (of couse only for the non french who 
had headsets) ... some on this list who were present might remember the 
"Sorry folks, i cannot translate this yet as i have no clue where this 
gusy is heading and there is sign that he will finish his sentence in 
time." Of course he got an applause afterwards.

Okay, but in general I do have good memories of meetings in France. 
Especially one Gutenberg meeting in a castle: 50% talks and 50% very 
good eating. And of course the famous nice 16th aniversay meeting ...

> So I suggest that Arthur write the book in French and maybe I could
> translate it into Dutch.

Ah, great! Because I wanted to give Slovian a try.

Hans


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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
      tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: The ConTeXt book

[Graham Douglas]

 >This is to inform you that's I've been commissioned by Hans and Taco
 >to work on a manual for ConTeXt, under their supervision, during the
 >next 12 months.  After the recent discussions about documentation on
 >this list, they have agreed that the lack of a complete manual was
 >getting more and more serious, and they have decided to fix this by
 >delegating this task.

This is brilliant news! Perhaps additional funds to support this could
be raised by a Paypal donations account? Or, should the manual be 
"sufficiently stable" at some point to sell hard copies via digital
printing. Sure, we can all print the PDFs but I, for one, am buried
in piles of unwieldy printouts and prefer a proper bound copy, any day.
Printing large ConTeXt docs would be heavy duty work for most
home printers and use lots of ink, so bound hard copies would be quite 
an economic alternative, in my opinion.

Maybe it's my age but I really don't like reading copious amounts of 
documentation on screen, no matter how carefully the PDFs are designed.

A great piece of news indeed.

Warm regards

Graham

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