LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[N. Lindenhayn]

Hi everyone,

I'm happy to see that by now almost all of microtype's features are 
available in Lua, almost like in the old days. There's one thing that 
seems a bit strange, though:

While I have no trouble applying letter spacing using \textls or 
\lsstyle to regular, italic, or bold text, I can't get it to work on 
small caps. What's even stranger: while this problem occurs with all 
fonts I've tried, it does /not/ occur when I don't specify a font at 
all. Consider the example below. The only way to get the correct output, 
with spaced small caps, is to deactivate the \setmainfont line -- which 
obviously isn't what you'd want :)

Any hints are appreciated; chances are I just have to add a thing here 
or there.

best
Nils.

\documentclass{scrartcl}
\usepackage{fontspec,microtype}
\setmainfont{Minion Pro}%or TeX Gyre Termes, or Latin Modern Roman...
\begin{document}
stealing sheep\par
\textls{stealing sheep}\par
\textsc{stealing sheep}\par
\textls{\textit{stealing sheep}}\par
\textls{\textbf{stealing sheep}}\par
\textls{\textsc{stealing sheep}}
\end{document}
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Re: LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[Hans Hagen]

On 14-6-2011 9:52, N. Lindenhayn wrote:

> \documentclass{scrartcl}
> \usepackage{fontspec,microtype}
> \setmainfont{Minion Pro}%or TeX Gyre Termes, or Latin Modern Roman...
> \begin{document}
> stealing sheep\par
> \textls{stealing sheep}\par
> \textsc{stealing sheep}\par
> \textls{\textit{stealing sheep}}\par
> \textls{\textbf{stealing sheep}}\par
> \textls{\textsc{stealing sheep}}
> \end{document}

on this list you should provide an example using context macros

Hans

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               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:33:38 +0200 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 14-6-2011 9:52, N. Lindenhayn wrote:
> 
>> \documentclass{scrartcl}
>> \usepackage{fontspec,microtype}
>> \setmainfont{Minion Pro}%or TeX Gyre Termes, or Latin Modern Roman...
>> \begin{document}
>> stealing sheep\par
>> \textls{stealing sheep}\par
>> \textsc{stealing sheep}\par
>> \textls{\textit{stealing sheep}}\par
>> \textls{\textbf{stealing sheep}}\par
>> \textls{\textsc{stealing sheep}}
>> \end{document}
> 
> on this list you should provide an example using context macros

At first I thought that it is a pure latex problem which should
better go at comp.text.tex or the lualatex mailing list. But it
could be that there is (context) font code or luatex problem.

With ConTeXt  ver: 2011.06.13 23:08 MKIV  fmt: 2011.6.15  (from the
minimals) the following fails:

\starttext

\font\test=file:fxlr.otf
\test abc \letterspacefont\lspfont=\font 500 \lspfont blub

%breaks: letterspaced font is not small small caps:
\font\test=file:fxlr.otf:mode=node;+smcp
\test abc \letterspacefont\lspfont=\font 500 \lspfont blub

%letterspacefont works:
\font\test=file:fxlr.otf:mode=base;+smcp
\test abc \letterspacefont\lspfont=\font 500 \lspfont blub

\stoptext

(fxlr.otf are the linux libertine O fonts as you get them in the
libertine package on CTAN. But probably the problem can be tested
with every font where small caps are implemented with +smcp). 

-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[Hans Hagen]

On 15-6-2011 10:59, Ulrike Fischer wrote:

> With ConTeXt  ver: 2011.06.13 23:08 MKIV  fmt: 2011.6.15  (from the
> minimals) the following fails:

I have to admit that I never used \letterspacefont (luatex offers it as 
a pdftex compatibility feature and as such it's strongly related to 
traditional font handling). The command makes a copy of an internal 
(tfm) + adapted metrics.

> \starttext
>
> \font\test=file:fxlr.otf
> \test abc \letterspacefont\lspfont=\font 500 \lspfont blub

base mode i.e. traditional, so it works

> %breaks: letterspaced font is not small small caps:
> \font\test=file:fxlr.otf:mode=node;+smcp
> \test abc \letterspacefont\lspfont=\font 500 \lspfont blub

a font defined to use node mode, but the copy is a basemode one so it 
has regular shapes and no smallcaps (as there are changed on the fly)

> %letterspacefont works:
> \font\test=file:fxlr.otf:mode=base;+smcp
> \test abc \letterspacefont\lspfont=\font 500 \lspfont blub

base mode i.e. traditional, so it works

> \stoptext

So, when someone wants that feature he/she'd better force basemode which 
is no big deal as letterspacing is selectively applied to often known / 
specially defined fonts.

Anyhow, context users will not use that command / method but instead use 
\kerncharacters[fraction], as in:

{test {\kerncharacters[.5] test \bf test} test}

or

\setuphead
   [section]
   [style=\sca,
    textstyle={\kerncharacters[.5]}]

etc. Support using \letterspacefont is very unlikely to end up in the 
core font code.

Hans

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                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:48:10 +0200 schrieb Hans Hagen:

> On 15-6-2011 10:59, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
> 
>> With ConTeXt  ver: 2011.06.13 23:08 MKIV  fmt: 2011.6.15  (from the
>> minimals) the following fails:
> 
> I have to admit that I never used \letterspacefont (luatex offers it as 
> a pdftex compatibility feature and as such it's strongly related to 
> traditional font handling). The command makes a copy of an internal 
> (tfm) + adapted metrics.
> 
>> \starttext
>>
>> \font\test=file:fxlr.otf
>> \test abc \letterspacefont\lspfont=\font 500 \lspfont blub
> 
> base mode i.e. traditional, so it works


> So, when someone wants that feature he/she'd better force basemode which 
> is no big deal as letterspacing is selectively applied to often known / 
> specially defined fonts.

Ah. Ok that explains it. This means that in latex/fontspec it works
with \setmainfont[Renderer=basic]{...}.

> Anyhow, context users will not use that command / method but instead use 
> \kerncharacters[fraction], as in:
> 
> {test {\kerncharacters[.5] test \bf test} test}

\kerncharacters is define in typo-krn. As far as I can see from
luatex-fonts.lua the generic code doesn't load typo-krn. Does that
mean that letterspacing in node-mode with latex would need some new
code?

-- 
Ulrike Fischer 

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Re: LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[Hans Hagen]

On 15-6-2011 12:51, Ulrike Fischer wrote:

> Ah. Ok that explains it. This means that in latex/fontspec it works
> with \setmainfont[Renderer=basic]{...}.

I guess so (if basic == basemode). There's nothing wrong with basemode 
in such cases.

> \kerncharacters is define in typo-krn. As far as I can see from
> luatex-fonts.lua the generic code doesn't load typo-krn. Does that
> mean that letterspacing in node-mode with latex would need some new
> code?

It depends (one can also to it at the tex end using macros or some lua 
parsing as normally this kind of inter character kerning is happening in 
controller situations). In context a lot happens in lua nowadays (but we 
need to keep an eye on interference). I expect to do some more in this 
area.

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[N. Lindenhayn]

>> Ah. Ok that explains it. This means that in latex/fontspec it works
>> with \setmainfont[Renderer=basic]{...}.
>
> I guess so (if basic == basemode). There's nothing wrong with basemode
> in such cases.

thanks Ulrike and Hans for the comments. It works fine with 
Renderer=basic, although I'm not sure what the side effects of switching 
from Full to Basic will be (it's not a particularly well documented 
feature, at least in the fontspec manual).

Sorry for posting to the wrong list; I was thinking about putting this 
in the Lua list, but I remembered someone saying anything Lua related is 
welcome on the ConTeXt list as well... which it probably is, but 
LuaLa(!)TeX is a different story, obviously. I'll try to gather more 
info on the renderer issue, wait a day or two for more comments here, 
and then will post the problem to the Lua list.

take care
Nils
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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: LuaTeX + microtype: Small Caps vs. Letter Spacing

[Hans Hagen]

On 15-6-2011 7:12, N. Lindenhayn wrote:
>>> Ah. Ok that explains it. This means that in latex/fontspec it works
>>> with \setmainfont[Renderer=basic]{...}.
>>
>> I guess so (if basic == basemode). There's nothing wrong with basemode
>> in such cases.
>
> thanks Ulrike and Hans for the comments. It works fine with
> Renderer=basic, although I'm not sure what the side effects of switching
> from Full to Basic will be (it's not a particularly well documented
> feature, at least in the fontspec manual).

In most cases a basic mode is good enough when you want to do 
intercharacter spacing as it makes only sense for scripts that have 
isolated glyphs (even ligatures are to be avoided).

> Sorry for posting to the wrong list; I was thinking about putting this
> in the Lua list, but I remembered someone saying anything Lua related is
> welcome on the ConTeXt list as well... which it probably is, but
> LuaLa(!)TeX is a different story, obviously. I'll try to gather more
> info on the renderer issue, wait a day or two for more comments here,
> and then will post the problem to the Lua list.

it's no problem at all posting here, it's just that you get more respons 
when there is a context example given

Hans

-----------------------------------------------------------------
                                           Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
               Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
                                              | www.pragma-pod.nl
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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