\setuppublications problem

\setuppublications problem

[Jean Magnan de Bornier]

Hi all,

Using the last mkiv from the minimals, \setuppublications seems out of order.

If I write:
..................................
\setupbibtex [database=/home/jean/biblio]
\setuppublications[alternative=apa]

\starttext


{\bf Bibliography}

\nocite[foo, bla, blu]
\placepublications
\stoptext
...................................

the pub list is empty. But if comment out this line the bibliography is
printed; it works also ok with 

\setuppublications[]


-- 
Jean
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Re: \setuppublications problem

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On Mar 10, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Jean Magnan de Bornier wrote:

> Using the last mkiv from the minimals, \setuppublications seems out  
> of order.
>
> If I write:
> ..................................
> \setupbibtex [database=/home/jean/biblio]
> \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
>
> \starttext
>
>
> {\bf Bibliography}
>
> \nocite[foo, bla, blu]
> \placepublications
> \stoptext
> ...................................
>
> the pub list is empty. But if comment out this line the bibliography  
> is
> printed; it works also ok with
>
> \setuppublications[]
>

Difficult to answer, I don't have the file /home/jean/biblio. Maybe  
make a real example?

Thomas
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Re: \setuppublications problem

[Jean Magnan de Bornier]

Le 11 mars à 13:00:51 "Thomas A. Schmitz" <thomas.schmitz@uni-bonn.de> écrit notamment:

| On Mar 10, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Jean Magnan de Bornier wrote:
>
| > Using the last mkiv from the minimals, \setuppublications seems out
| > of order.
| >
| > If I write:
| > ..................................
| > \setupbibtex [database=/home/jean/biblio]
| > \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
| >
| > \starttext
| >
| >
| > {\bf Bibliography}
| >
| > \nocite[foo, bla, blu]
| > \placepublications
| > \stoptext
| > ...................................
| >
| > the pub list is empty. But if comment out this line the bibliography
| > is
| > printed; it works also ok with
| >
| > \setuppublications[]
| >
>
| Difficult to answer, I don't have the file /home/jean/biblio. Maybe
| make a real example?

Fair enough. Here:
.........................
\setupbibtex [database=/home/jean/biblio]
\setuppublications[alternative=apa]

\starttext


{\bf Bibliography}

\nocite[hh2010a,hh2010b,Eijkhout1991]
\placepublications
\stoptext
............................

biblio.bib is a file already known to some:

............................
@STRING{hh = {Hans Hagen}}

@ELECTRONIC{hh2010,
  author = hh,
  year = {2010},
  title = {Metafun. \CONTEXT\ mkiv},
  url = {http://www.pragma-ade.nl/general/manuals/metafun-s.pdf},
}

@ARTICLE{hh2010a,
  author = hh,
  title = {The Font Name Mess},
  journal = {MAPS},
  year = {2010},
  volume = {40},
  pages = {2-8},
  keywords = {context},
}

@ARTICLE{hh2010b,
  author = hh,
  title = {Grouping in Hybrid Environments},
  journal = {MAPS},
  year = {2010},
  volume = {40},
  pages = {67-71},
  keywords = {context},
}

@BOOK{Eijkhout1991,
  title = {\TeX\ by Topic. A \TeX nician's Reference},
  publisher = {Addison-Wesley},
  year = {1991},
  author = {Victor Eijkhout},
  address = {London},
  keywords = {general},
}
...........................

With mkiv I get an output without the bibliography; but dropping
"alternative=apa" everything is fine (I tried other alternatives).

tia,
-- 
Jean
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Re: \setuppublications problem

[Thomas Schmitz]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 08:37:28 +0100
  Jean Magnan de Bornier <jm.bornier@free.fr> wrote:

>Fair enough. Here:
> .........................
> \setupbibtex [database=/home/jean/biblio]
> \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
> 
> \starttext
> 
> 
> {\bf Bibliography}
> 
> \nocite[hh2010a,hh2010b,Eijkhout1991]
> \placepublications
> \stoptext
> ............................

Have you tried \placepublications[criterium=all] or 
\placepublications[criterium=text]?
  
> biblio.bib is a file already known to some:

So it's sample.bib. It would have made helping easier if 
you had said that.

Thomas
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Re: \setuppublications problem

[Jean Magnan de Bornier]

Le 12 mars à 11:09:55 "Thomas Schmitz" <tschmit1@uni-bonn.de> écrit notamment:

| On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 08:37:28 +0100
|  Jean Magnan de Bornier <jm.bornier@free.fr> wrote:
>
| >Fair enough. Here:
| > .........................
| > \setupbibtex [database=/home/jean/biblio]
| > \setuppublications[alternative=apa]
| >
| > \starttext
| >
| >
| > {\bf Bibliography}
| >
| > \nocite[hh2010a,hh2010b,Eijkhout1991]
| > \placepublications
| > \stoptext
| > ............................
>
| Have you tried \placepublications[criterium=all] or
| \placepublications[criterium=text]?

These are working, thanks.


-- 
Jean
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Re: \setuppublications problem

[Florian Wobbe]

> Have you tried \placepublications[criterium=all] or \placepublications[criterium=text]?

Hi Thomas,

you gave me exactly the same hint last week. We should add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki (Bibliography MKIV page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv).

In the beginning it was not clear to me, that http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the MKII implementation of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest to rename Bibliography to Bibliography_mkii and create an alias Bibliography that redirects to Bibliography_mkiv instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that the page is related to mkii/mkiv only and link to the other page. Do you think this is reasonable?

I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle files and add space for sharing reference styles of different journals. What do you think?

In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii related  information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to make it easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections, independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline?

Best,
Florian

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Re: \setuppublications problem

[Thomas Schmitz]

Hi Florian,

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 11:45:16 +0100
  Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de> wrote:
>> Have you tried \placepublications[criterium=all] or 
>>\placepublications[criterium=text]?
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
> you gave me exactly the same hint last week. 

Not only that, but someone gave exactly the same hint to 
Jean in December...

We should
>add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki 
>(Bibliography MKIV page: 
>http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv).

You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on 
bibliographies right now (he promised to finish something 
which I need for a project in March, so that leaves him 
another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a bit. 
criterium=cite should work as well, but doesn't right now.

> In the beginning it was not clear to me, that 
>http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the 
>MKII implementation of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest 
>to rename Bibliography to Bibliography_mkii and create an 
>alias Bibliography that redirects to Bibliography_mkiv 
>instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and 
>Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that 
>the page is related to mkii/mkiv only and link to the 
>other page. Do you think this is reasonable?

I had begun rewriting the page. There is now 
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliographies which links 
to the other pages, and which is linked to on the front 
page. But another context-related project kept me away 
from this and I never finished this, so fell free to 
shuffle and rewrite things!

> I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle 
>files and add space for sharing reference styles of 
>different journals. What do you think?

Again, that's a very good idea, but we should maybe wait 
just a bit till the dust settles a bit.
  
> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between 
>mkiv and mkii related  information in the wiki. How could 
>we better structure the wiki to make it easier for the 
>reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections, 
>independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline?
  
Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be 
able to make everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a 
new user on the list who asks about "installing mkiv" and 
doesn't realize that it is not really something which you 
have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those 
users because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly 
identical, so that would be an arguments against a too 
stric separation. But of course you're also right that 
it's frustrating for users if they can't find relevant 
information for the areas where the two differ. As long as 
mkiv hasn't settled, this is not easy...

All best

Thomas
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Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Florian Wobbe]

Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:

1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for search engine requests?
5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?

Especially answers from new users to the first three points would be helpful to answer the fifth point I guess.

>> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii related  information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to make it easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections, independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline?
> Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be able to make everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a new user on the list who asks about "installing mkiv" and doesn't realize that it is not really something which you have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those users because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly identical, so that would be an arguments against a too stric separation.

I understand the problem.

Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should be renamed to "installing/using context".

Maybe it would help to include a little box "important things to know" on the installation page and explain shortly that for historical reasons mkii and mkiv are distributed together and that the former is regarded deprecated.  Maybe link to a new page: Differences between miiv/mkii and how both are invoked (context vs. texexec).

Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.

> But of course you're also right that it's frustrating for users if they can't find relevant information for the areas where the two differ. As long as mkiv hasn't settled, this is not easy...

In deed. I guess this has most relevance for people new to context, especially those who know latex already and are used to find help easily.

>> We should add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki (Bibliography MKIV page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv).
> 
> You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on bibliographies right now (he promised to finish something which I need for a project in March, so that leaves him another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a bit.

OK, fine. I'm curious what new feature this will bring to us!

> criterium=cite should work as well, but doesn't right now.
> 
>> In the beginning it was not clear to me, that http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the MKII implementation of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest to rename Bibliography to Bibliography_mkii and create an alias Bibliography that redirects to Bibliography_mkiv instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that the page is related to mkii/mkiv only and link to the other page. Do you think this is reasonable?
> 
> I had begun rewriting the page. There is now http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliographies which links to the other pages, and which is linked to on the front page. But another context-related project kept me away from this and I never finished this, so fell free to shuffle and rewrite things!

I see. I was not aware of this page. I usually find information on the wiki by searching for: "site:wiki.contextgarden.net placepublications". So if there are actually  disambiguation pages for mkiv/mkii it makes sense to include mkiv/mkii on both pages (not just one).

>> I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle files and add space for sharing reference styles of different journals. What do you think?
> 
> Again, that's a very good idea, but we should maybe wait just a bit till the dust settles a bit.

All right.

Best,
Florian

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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Marco]

On 2011-03-12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de> wrote:

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
> 
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?

Because the old manuals only mention mkii and many things have changed in mkiv
and don't work in mkii. It is not easy for beginners to choose between mkii
and mkiv. And many are not aware of the two different (and incompatible)
versions and mix them up.

> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?

First:
Users like to install software using the package management system. Installing
software manually is considered evil. For software that is updated frequently
usually ppa links are provided for the repository.

Second:
You mentioned it already. Users tend to install »maximals«, not minimals, they
don't like rectricted versions if you can get the whole. ;)

> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?

Make it clear that the minimals are the standard way of using ConTeXt, not
TeXlive when they want an up-to-date ConTeXt distribution. 

A clear advise for mkiv and contra mkii. mkiv is the way to go in the future.

> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
> search engine requests?

I don't see a problem there (but still, maybe other people have). Searching
the mailing list, the garden or google for context + pragma usually points to
the right direction.

> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?

Provide examples using the described features, so they have a point to start
from. This is solved in a good way in the pdf documents, not really on the
wiki.

> I understand the problem.
> 
> Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should be
> renamed to "installing/using context".

ACK

> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I
> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
> first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of
> the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
> distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
> minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would
> suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.

Very true. But it's an established name, I don't believe that it's likely to
be changed.


Marco


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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 14:05, Marco wrote:
> On 2011-03-12 Florian Wobbe wrote:
>
>> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I
>> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
>> first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of
>> the extra effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
>> distribution" that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
>> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
>> minimals is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would
>> suggest leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.

Interesting point :)

> Very true. But it's an established name, I don't believe that it's likely to
> be changed.

Well, I have been warned several times that we should change the name.

I'm procrastinating for over a year already to finish and release a
new version (that will be even more minimal, but with more optional
fonts etc.) on the new server. It would be an option to rename it to
"The ConTeXt Distribution", but the pet name "minimals" will probably
stay :)

Mojca
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Re: \setuppublications problem

[John Haltiwanger]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1054 bytes --]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Thomas Schmitz <tschmit1@uni-bonn.de>wrote:

> Hi Florian,
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 11:45:16 +0100
>  Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de> wrote:
>
>> Have you tried \placepublications[criterium=all] or
>>> \placepublications[criterium=text]?
>>
>>
>
> We should
>
>> add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki (Bibliography MKIV page:
>> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv).
>>
>
> You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on bibliographies
> right now (he promised to finish something which I need for a project in
> March, so that leaves him another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a
> bit. criterium=cite should work as well, but doesn't right now.
>
>
This is exciting. I think it's very important that we throw out BibTeX
altogether in MkIV, and I hope that this work Hans is doing right now is
somehow related to it. If it were ever possible to implement bibliography
styles with something akin to string.format Lua calls, well, who wouldn't
love that kind of flexibility?

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1884 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 486 bytes --]

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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Procházka Lukáš]

Hello,

my personal opinion(s) (some of them very similar to Marco's ones):

> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?

(Cannot say; I started with MkIV so for me ConTeXt = MkIV.)

> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?

The word "minimals" is a bit confusing. It implies that there must be also Ctx "standard" or Ctx "maximal".

Better to be just "ConTeXt"; and if one finds something missing (e.g. fonts? modules?), he may be directed towards some "extras".

> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for search engine requests?

The problem is too-many-incomplete (or obsolete) information sources. Wiki contains many stubs; there are options for commands which are not explained at all, even not mentioned or demonstrated by an example.

Similar for contextref.pdf - there are many "todo areas", but be it. But also many command options are not explained at all.

 From the user's point, when one has a problem, this means 1) search the wiki (he may remember that lately he didn't find an answer, but he should try again, what about if the topic/stub was added/completed?), 2) search the manual (personally, my most favourite source) and 3) to post a question to the mailing list (fortunately, people here do answer swiftly and even very "basic" questions are answered patiently).

In my opinion, one information source would be good, a Ctx reference. It might be divided to several parts (e.g. Fonts, Tables, Document Structure Elements, Layers and Overlays, Colouring ConTeXt, ConTeXt and XML...).

It should be decided whether the primary source is to be the wiki or the Ctx manual (.pdf).

> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?

For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup (module?) which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to that been generated by LaTeX.

Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's signature is also unmatchable).

If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating from LaTeX), you probably won't be satisfied with the default look (letters too big, heads not bold, spacing before/after heads too different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document looks very "symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons).

The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you must search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the result which would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.

----

Treat all above as a personal point of view.

I appreciate all work around Ctx and documenting it; and as an active programmer (including writing a user reference) I can imagine effort which must be make to improve a program, to test it and to keep the documentation up-to-date, including adding description of new features (and samples for them) and removing the deprecated ones.

Best regards,

Lukas


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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Jaroslav Hajtmar]

Hello ConTeXist.

I installed ConTeXt minimals until pretty late. Before, I used the 
context in the TeXLive. For a long time I really thought that Minimals 
are "incomplete" versions of minimal and that there was something more. 
I was very pleasantly surprised at how easily Minimals installed and is 
very good, it is easy to automatically update the version. MkII I 
completely stopped using to create new documents using the MkII and 
translate only the old stuff.
I know from experience that newcomers and MkII MKIV confusing and I have 
sometimes a problem with incompatibility, because I have long used the MkII.

Personally I would advocate a clear separation of the MkII and MKIV in 
the garden and change "minimals" name to the name that is so misleading 
- eg directly MarkTeX :-).

Greetings Jaroslav



Dne 12.3.2011 17:20, Procházka Lukáš napsal(a):
> Hello,
>
> my personal opinion(s) (some of them very similar to Marco's ones):
>
>> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
>
> (Cannot say; I started with MkIV so for me ConTeXt = MkIV.)
>
>> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
>
> The word "minimals" is a bit confusing. It implies that there must be 
> also Ctx "standard" or Ctx "maximal".
>
> Better to be just "ConTeXt"; and if one finds something missing (e.g. 
> fonts? modules?), he may be directed towards some "extras".
>
>> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
>> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden 
>> for search engine requests?
>
> The problem is too-many-incomplete (or obsolete) information sources. 
> Wiki contains many stubs; there are options for commands which are not 
> explained at all, even not mentioned or demonstrated by an example.
>
> Similar for contextref.pdf - there are many "todo areas", but be it. 
> But also many command options are not explained at all.
>
> From the user's point, when one has a problem, this means 1) search 
> the wiki (he may remember that lately he didn't find an answer, but he 
> should try again, what about if the topic/stub was added/completed?), 
> 2) search the manual (personally, my most favourite source) and 3) to 
> post a question to the mailing list (fortunately, people here do 
> answer swiftly and even very "basic" questions are answered patiently).
>
> In my opinion, one information source would be good, a Ctx reference. 
> It might be divided to several parts (e.g. Fonts, Tables, Document 
> Structure Elements, Layers and Overlays, Colouring ConTeXt, ConTeXt 
> and XML...).
>
> It should be decided whether the primary source is to be the wiki or 
> the Ctx manual (.pdf).
>
>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
> For LaTeX incomers: it would be good to provide a sample setup 
> (module?) which would make Ctx generated .pdf looking very closely to 
> that been generated by LaTeX.
>
> Now, if you see a .pdf document and you are familiar with LaTeX, you 
> recognize immediately whether or not it was generated by LaTeX (Word's 
> signature is also unmatchable).
>
> If you create a first document with ConTeXt (moreover when migrating 
> from LaTeX), you probably won't be satisfied with the default look 
> (letters too big, heads not bold, spacing before/after heads too 
> different from LaTeX's; and the LaTeX default document looks very 
> "symphonic" in my opinion) (but also I can imagine that many Ctx 
> defaults cannot be changed due to backward compatibility reasons).
>
> The perfect feature of ConTeXt is that all these features may be 
> systematically altered (often [almost] impossible in LaTeX) but you 
> must search enough and study (and maybe ask the forum) to get the 
> result which would fulfil your aesthetic requirements.
>
> ----
>
> Treat all above as a personal point of view.
>
> I appreciate all work around Ctx and documenting it; and as an active 
> programmer (including writing a user reference) I can imagine effort 
> which must be make to improve a program, to test it and to keep the 
> documentation up-to-date, including adding description of new features 
> (and samples for them) and removing the deprecated ones.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lukas
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry 
> to the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
>

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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[C.]

Hello,

I recently started using context. I migrated from latex to xelatex to
context. Mainly because of the better font support. I now value context also
for its superior abilities. I feel that I can do more stuff without the use
of \usepackage for this, \usepackage for that. When I read the
documentation, I get the feeling that a lot of thoughts went into the
options that are presented but it's still easy to customize (if you know how
to do it :D)
Here is my input to your questions.

1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
The difference is not well explained. Also, mkii (which I don't use) sounds
like "the old version". When I first read about context, it was like "well,
we have this and that (mkii and mkiv)" but it should say "we have mkii,
[insert here: what can it do, for what users is it recommended, pros/cons]
and mkiv [insert info]. If you are not sure what to use, then you should use
mkiv, because that is the future." Or something like that.

2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
is.

3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
I for one would welcome to see more guides like the "titles" guide. Nicely
commented and explained code, result as picture. For better structure it
would be an option to use code blocks that can be hidden, with a small [+]
in front that you can click to see the code.

4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
search engine requests?
I read the manual section, if that does not answer it, I google "<what I
want> context". Most of the time that takes me to the mail archive.

5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
I don't know.

Maybe that helps.
Christian



> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Florian Wobbe [mailto:Florian.Wobbe@awi.de]
> Gesendet: Samstag, 12. März 2011 13:21
> An: mailing list for ConTeXt users
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?
> 
> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
> 
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for
> search engine requests?
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
> 
> Especially answers from new users to the first three points would be
helpful
> to answer the fifth point I guess.
> 
> >> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii
related
> information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to make it
> easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections,
> independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline?
> > Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be able to make
> everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a new user on the list who asks
> about "installing mkiv" and doesn't realize that it is not really
something
> which you have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those users
> because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly identical, so that
would
> be an arguments against a too stric separation.
> 
> I understand the problem.
> 
> Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should
be
> renamed to "installing/using context".
> 
> Maybe it would help to include a little box "important things to know" on
the
> installation page and explain shortly that for historical reasons mkii and
mkiv
> are distributed together and that the former is regarded deprecated.
Maybe
> link to a new page: Differences between miiv/mkii and how both are invoked
> (context vs. texexec).
> 
> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals.
I
> now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the
first
> place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of the
extra
> effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL
distribution"
> that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something
> incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the
minimals
> is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would suggest
> leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead.
> 
> > But of course you're also right that it's frustrating for users if they
can't find
> relevant information for the areas where the two differ. As long as mkiv
> hasn't settled, this is not easy...
> 
> In deed. I guess this has most relevance for people new to context,
> especially those who know latex already and are used to find help easily.
> 
> >> We should add criterium=cite and criterium=text to the Wiki
(Bibliography
> MKIV page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv).
> >
> > You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on bibliographies
right
> now (he promised to finish something which I need for a project in March,
so
> that leaves him another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a bit.
> 
> OK, fine. I'm curious what new feature this will bring to us!
> 
> > criterium=cite should work as well, but doesn't right now.
> >
> >> In the beginning it was not clear to me, that
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the MKII
> implementation of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest to rename Bibliography
> to Bibliography_mkii and create an alias Bibliography that redirects to
> Bibliography_mkiv instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and
> Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that the page is related
to
> mkii/mkiv only and link to the other page. Do you think this is
reasonable?
> >
> > I had begun rewriting the page. There is now
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliographies which links to the other
pages,
> and which is linked to on the front page. But another context-related
project
> kept me away from this and I never finished this, so fell free to shuffle
and
> rewrite things!
> 
> I see. I was not aware of this page. I usually find information on the
wiki by
> searching for: "site:wiki.contextgarden.net placepublications". So if
there are
> actually  disambiguation pages for mkiv/mkii it makes sense to include
> mkiv/mkii on both pages (not just one).
> 
> >> I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle files and add
space
> for sharing reference styles of different journals. What do you think?
> >
> > Again, that's a very good idea, but we should maybe wait just a bit till
the
> dust settles a bit.
> 
> All right.
> 
> Best,
> Florian
> 


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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Pontus Lurcock]

On Sat 12 Mar 2011, C. wrote:

> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
> is.

I think "Context Standalone" would be a good name: as I understand it,
"minimals" refers to the fact that it doesn't include other TeX
formats and associated baggage; "standalone" conveys the same idea
with less ambiguity, and hints at the fact that it won't interfere
with your system's package manager.

> 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers?
> I for one would welcome to see more guides like the "titles" guide.

Agreed. I've been learning Python matplotlib at the same time as
ConTeXt, and find that the quickest way is to pick an example plot
from the (extensive) gallery that looks similar to what I want, then
progressively modify the source code into what I need. A similar
collection of common use-cases for ConTeXt would be great for
beginners, I think.

> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
> I don't know.

Someone above suggested packaging layouts to approximate the standard
LaTeX look, and I too think that this would help. Not that I find the
standard LaTeX look very pretty, but familiarity is a powerful
force...

Pont
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[mathew]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 06:21, Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de> wrote:

> Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the
>minimals. I now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the
>minimals in the first place, having TeXLive installed already. For one
>it was because of the extra effort.

My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals in
your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as pdfcrop.
I ended up writing my own pdfcrop because I couldn't work out how to
get the one from my distribution working at the same time as the
ConTeXt minimals.

I'd have gone back to my distro's copy of ConTeXt, if it wasn't for
the fact that it dates back to 2009 and I'd already hit a bug in it
that's fixed in the minimals.


mathew
-- 
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~meta/>
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Pontus Lurcock]

On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:

> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
> pdfcrop.

I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.

Pont
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[luigi scarso]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock <pont@talvi.net> wrote:
> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
>
>> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
>> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
>> pdfcrop.
>
> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than windows).

-- 
luigi
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Vnpenguin]

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 21:08, C. <metan0r@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I recently started using context. I migrated from latex to xelatex to
> context. Mainly because of the better font support. I now value context also
> for its superior abilities. I feel that I can do more stuff without the use
> of \usepackage for this, \usepackage for that. When I read the
> documentation, I get the feeling that a lot of thoughts went into the
> options that are presented but it's still easy to customize (if you know how
> to do it :D)
> Here is my input to your questions.
>
> 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii?
> The difference is not well explained. Also, mkii (which I don't use) sounds
> like "the old version". When I first read about context, it was like "well,
> we have this and that (mkii and mkiv)" but it should say "we have mkii,
> [insert here: what can it do, for what users is it recommended, pros/cons]
> and mkiv [insert info]. If you are not sure what to use, then you should use
> mkiv, because that is the future." Or something like that.

For me I don't care mkii. I use only mkiv. It's better to separate
completely mkii from mkiv distribution. Yes, I see, in this case there
is some work more for ConTeXt team.

> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
> is.

Yes, agreed !

mkii should be named "ConTeXt Legacy" ?
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Re: Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?)

[Alan BRASLAU]

On Sunday 13 March 2011 07:25:03 luigi scarso wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock <pont@talvi.net> wrote:
> > On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
> >> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
> >> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
> >> pdfcrop.
> > 
> > I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
> > or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
> > and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
> > doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
> > the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
> 
> this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than
> windows).

Except if one works principly with ConTeXt, in which case it is much
nicer to have /path/to/minimials by default in PATH.

I do the opposite: if ever I need to use latex (lualatex!),
this works just fine, except for a few programs such as bibtex
for which I just define special aliases:
tbibtex -> /usr/local/texlive/2010/bin/x86_64-linux/bibtex
etc.
I guess that `luatex' is a problem.

Maybe the minimals could evolve slightly so that there be *no*
name conflicts with texlive except for ConTeXt itself, of course?
(It appears that pdfcrop gets broken through a confusion over luatex,
perhaps other texlive programs as well.)

Alan
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Re: Minimals

[Taco Hoekwater]

On 03/13/2011 08:42 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> On Sunday 13 March 2011 07:25:03 luigi scarso wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock<pont@talvi.net>  wrote:
>>> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
>>>> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
>>>> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
>>>> pdfcrop.
>>>
>>> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
>>> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
>>> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
>>> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
>>> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
>>
>> this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than
>> windows).
>
> Except if one works principly with ConTeXt, in which case it is much
> nicer to have /path/to/minimials by default in PATH.
>
> I do the opposite: if ever I need to use latex (lualatex!),

If I need lualatex, I just push the TeXLive bin directory to the front
of my path. (exact opposite of Pontus' approach).

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: Minimals

[luigi scarso]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com> wrote:
> On 03/13/2011 08:42 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday 13 March 2011 07:25:03 luigi scarso wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Pontus Lurcock<pont@talvi.net>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, mathew wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience on Ubuntu is that if you install the ConTeXt minimals
>>>>> in your path, they break a bunch of stuff from TeXLive, such as
>>>>> pdfcrop.
>>>>
>>>> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
>>>> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
>>>> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
>>>> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
>>>> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.
>>>
>>> this is the right way to work with minimals (in linux is easy than
>>> windows).
>>
>> Except if one works principly with ConTeXt, in which case it is much
>> nicer to have /path/to/minimials by default in PATH.
>>
>> I do the opposite: if ever I need to use latex (lualatex!),
>
> If I need lualatex, I just push the TeXLive bin directory to the front
> of my path. (exact opposite of Pontus' approach).
ah ok, now I see.
My PATH env var. has not a TeXLive or minimals path by default.
Every time I need a TeXLive or minimals, I open a shell and setup the its path
and I never mix the paths --- just open another shell in another
working spaces (In linux I use 16 working spaces)
or another tab in gnome-terminal.
In this way I can work with different TeXLive and different minimals
For example I have under /opt/luatex/texlive
2008
2008-texmf-local
2009
2009-texmf-local
2010
2010-texmf-local

and ~10 different minimals under opt/luatex


Of course this can be a problem with editors that expect just one
path, but I use emacs, so...

-- 
luigi
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Re: Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?)

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2011-03-13 um 06:03 schrieb Pontus Lurcock:

> I have the minimals installed but with no automatic setup in .bashrc
> or similar. So when I need to run ConTeXt, I fire up a new terminal
> and explicitly ‘source /path/to/minimals/context/tex/setuptex’ before
> doing anything else. Anything I run in a different terminal just gets
> the standard paths for the system's TeXLive installation.

I do the same on OSX (even if simply because setuptex is too slow for  
every new Terminal window, where I don’t need it) but set
alias setuptex='. /path/to/tex/setuptex /path/to/tex'
in my .bashrc (or .profile, that is).


Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: Minimals (was: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?)

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 22:35, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
>
> even if simply because setuptex is too slow for every
> new Terminal window

You can just as well use
    export PATH=/path/to/tex/texmf-osx-64/bin:$PATH
which should be much faster.

Setuptex doesn't do anything else.

Mojca
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Taco Hoekwater]

Hi,

On 03/13/2011 12:04 AM, Pontus Lurcock wrote:
> On Sat 12 Mar 2011, C. wrote:
>
>> 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals?
>> Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is
>> that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty
>> far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it
>> is.
>
> I think "Context Standalone" would be a good name: as I understand it,
> "minimals" refers to the fact that it doesn't include other TeX
> formats and associated baggage; "standalone" conveys the same idea
> with less ambiguity, and hints at the fact that it won't interfere
> with your system's package manager.

I agree, that sounds like a good name. Mojca, this does not need
much more initial work than fixing the wiki pages, right?

Best wishes,
Taco
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Carlos Breton Besnier]

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2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I write law books.
Latex installation and update is very simple for beginners. On Windows with
MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first document. Not so with
ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's cause of frustration and
after several attempts they give up. Then they return to LaTeX (like me
too).

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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Carlos Breton Besnier]

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2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
return to LaTeX (like me too).

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___________________________________________________________________________________
If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!

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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Carlos Breton]

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2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>

> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>
> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>
>
>

I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
return to LaTeX (like me too).

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___________________________________________________________________________________

Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 08:46, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> Mojca, this does not need
> much more initial work than fixing the wiki pages, right?

Except that wiki pages are in a really horrible shape when it comes to
Installation pages.

I bet that 90% of pages are outdated with wrong information about how
to break TeX Live 2009 with the latest ConTeXt MKIV version, how to
break MikTeX 2.7 by creating a couple of .bat files to run the latest
ConTeXt, how to install on SuSE from 2007, etc.

I'm just not sure what and where to start fixing anything unless I
create a full list of outdated pages, create a full backup, delete
everything and write everything from scratch.

If anyone has the slightest idea where to start, please do it.

Mojca
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[mathew]

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 15:26, Mojca Miklavec
<mojca.miklavec.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> Except that wiki pages are in a really horrible shape when it comes to
> Installation pages.
[...]
> If anyone has the slightest idea where to start, please do it.

FWIW, I updated the Ubuntu pages last week.

The OS X pages don't seem to be out of date.


mathew
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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Vedran Miletić]

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2011/3/14 Carlos Breton Besnier <breton.carlos@gmail.com>

>
>
> 2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>
>
>>  Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>>
>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>>
>>
> I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
> for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
> I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
> beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
> document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
> cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
> return to LaTeX (like me too).
>

Well, with TeX Live 2010 it's very simple to use MkII with both pdfTeX and
XeTeX. Hopefully, some future version of TeX Live (2011?) will offer the
same for MkIV. Script is already there, it's just not integrated with
TeXworks in TeX Live yet.

Regards,

Vedran Miletić

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Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden?

[Ian Lawrence]

Well, I am a beginner. I have just lost 2 hours trying to do something
which ought to be simple. Perhaps now I have spent 10's of hours
working at my understanding, yet still I have to look up the simplest
essentials, often. And I think knowing what kind of things it is, and
where one might look are necessary lubricants for this process.

I think you probably cannot have too many (documented) examples.
Things which are very obvious to some , are not so obvious to others.

And if too much has to be done by trial and error then everything is
very slow... Very very slow.

For me, there is too much that is cryptic in the Wiki. Often I read
the entry and am no wiser. Each word is well formed, but there is no
mental model emerging. Maybe a wiki is good place for archiving,
curating and exchanging tips, but just not so good for learning from
scratch.

The 'Starting with Context' pdf I find very good, but for later work
all kinds of things are 'bad style', 'deprecated' etc. So maybe a way
in to thinking about what to do is to consider how the newer user
might get a handle on what Context is really for, and why one might
prefer it to manually typesetting documents...

Kind regards

Ian


2011/3/16 Vedran Miletić <rivanvx@gmail.com>:
> 2011/3/14 Carlos Breton Besnier <breton.carlos@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> 2011/3/12 Florian Wobbe <Florian.Wobbe@awi.de>
>>>
>>> Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out:
>>>
>>> 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users?
>>>
>>
>> I think is needed a installation guide for non-technical. A guide not only
>> for programmers but a simple guide for dummies. Like me, I am no-developer,
>> I write law books. Latex installation and update is very simple for
>> beginners. On Windows with MiKTeX, everyone can write very soon his first
>> document. Not so with ConTeXt, except old stand-alone installation. It's
>> cause of frustration and after several attempts they give up. Then they
>> return to LaTeX (like me too).
>
> Well, with TeX Live 2010 it's very simple to use MkII with both pdfTeX and
> XeTeX. Hopefully, some future version of TeX Live (2011?) will offer the
> same for MkIV. Script is already there, it's just not integrated with
> TeXworks in TeX Live yet.
>
> Regards,
>
> Vedran Miletić
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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> ___________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
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